TromboneChat

I’ve got the video linked below, but in this recording from the NYPO, the bass trombonist has some crazy franken-bass trombone that seems to have an alternate valve tuning. I looked in the comments in the video and someone said it’s a C valve (I’m assuming C2, aka low C since it’s so large). This may be correct, but I’ve tried finding the player’s name, but couldn’t seem to do so. I play bass bone, so call me uncultured if this is an important onside I don’t know of, but I’d love some insight into what the heck that trombone and especially the valve section is! If ur is low C, just *why*?? It seems very nonsensical compared to say Denson Paul Pollard’s second trigger in G, which makes much more sense.

Here’s the link to the video:

Looks like Don Harwood, and I think he's playing a 2nd valve in C, which is often used on Bach 50 bass trombones.

That's Don Harwood. He's got a C extension for the 2nd valve. This means you can play low C in first position, B in second, with only one valve engaged.

What’s the purpose of that? It seems kind of useless since you’d just get pedal Bb, A, and Ab in the further out positions?

GavinFYoung wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:36 pm What’s the purpose of that? It seems kind of useless since you’d just get pedal Bb, A, and Ab in the further out positions?

It's really to avoid playing through two valves. I'd challenge you to find another video of him playing it, though...

IF the 2nd valve puts C in first position, then you no longer have access to Eb, D and Db, right?

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:43 pm IF the 2nd valve puts C in first position, then you no longer have access to Eb, D and Db, right?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 9:38 pm

It's really to avoid playing through two valves. I'd challenge you to find another video of him playing it, though...

How does it avoid playing through two valves if, as stated above, the second valve is what gets you C in first?

Eb, D, and Db are all on the F valve. It's an independent instrument.

Ah, I get it.

I'm doubtful about the premise.

I can play a low C# with one valve or two but the difference in response seems negligible. it's a lot of air to set in motion either way and a C will be slightly more.

Tubas and trumpets and horns all play lots of notes with more than one valve, often with rotary valves just like we have on trombones, and it's not hindering them.

The tenor tuba solo in Ravel's Pictures was imagined for a horn that had six valves so no note needed more than one valve and yet that has presented no advantage such that such a configuration has become the ideal.

Anyone ever have their independent valves tuned low D and Gb? I feel like that would do just about everything I’d want. I barely play anything in the F valve, and the idea of playing those low notes through only one valves seems very appealing.

I’ve always really enjoyed that video. Talk about turning it up to 11.

Here is my TR181 at full extension.

With this, I can play low E in 1st with just the second valve and low C in a flattish 6th.

It's not C in 1st position but in terms one valve and total tubing is this any different from the monster above?

I suppose if I needed C in 1st with one valve I could pile on some more of those middle pieces... about four more?

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robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 8:36 pm

It's not C in 1st position but in terms one valve and total tubing is this any different from the monster above?



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I mean, it's a bass trombone. I guess that's similar. But Don has a full major 3rd more tubing on his second valve.

Don Harwood played that for a few years - very free blowing but heavy and limited for technical passages. Ed Anderson (Cleveland Orchestra/Indiana University Faculty for many years) also played a similar set-up for quite a while. Both of them were fantastic players who sounded great on that equipment, as well as on the other horns/valves that they played during other times in their careers. Some people enjoy experimenting - not something that ultimately caught on.

Jim Scott

Olds had an Eb-D extension for the P-24G at one point. I've got one; only tried it a couple times. Turns what (for me) is an entirely manageable instrument into something that is quite uncomfortable after a very short period of time.

I seem to recall an article by Doug Yeo that looked at some contras with independent valves that were intended to be a "V1 or V2" proposition rather than "V1 or V2 or (V1 and V2)".

Obviously, Don didn't even use the C valve on that particular work that night but I wonder what else they played that night. The choice might be more obvious from that context.

Another option is to put the second valve in D. I have a friend who plays with that set up.

D-flat is in 2.5, C in 4th and B natural in #6th. He tunes his F valve so that he can play B natural in 1st position with both valves engaged.

I have never played his horn, but claims that the notes respond much fast when using a single valve……even though the horn has axials!

This was a popular enough option for a few years that Edwards made 2nd valve extensions in D and C. I used to see them at auditions.

Full confession: I had Chuck McAlexander make me a D extension for my Bach that he open-wrapped. I brought it to a quartet rehearsal but found that I couldn't make ANY SOUND AT ALL with it in the instrument, because the weight distribution changed the balance such that the vibration of my upper lip was cut off.

Can valve extensions like that be purchased for any horn? For example, I have a Eastman ETB848 and have been considering trying alternate valve tunings. How would I go about doing that? Be sure I’ve seen mass produced extensions for Bach trombones, but not sure about other makers? Maybe I’d *have* to go to a tech?

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Thu May 26, 2022 10:12 pm Don Harwood played that for a few years - very free blowing but heavy and limited for technical passages. Ed Anderson (Cleveland Orchestra/Indiana University Faculty for many years) also played a similar set-up for quite a while. Both of them were fantastic players who sounded great on that equipment, as well as on the other horns/valves that they played during other times in their careers. Some people enjoy experimenting - not something that ultimately caught on.

Jim Scott

Ed Anderson's son is the principal bassist of the orchestra back home in New Orleans. When I was a teenager and getting into the trombone in a serious way I went to see the orchestra play for the first time and Ed happened to be playing fourth (Mahler 2)/visiting the grandkids/quartet recital with the section. He had that horn with him- totally blew my mind. I'd only seen a double valve in person once and never heard someone who played like that. Seemed like some diety had come down to play and I spent a lot of years wondering why all bass trombones didn't look like that .

I'd imagine it's a weird setup to play, but it's always seemed pretty amazing in terms of aesthetics.

GavinFYoung wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 8:31 am Can valve extensions like that be purchased for any horn? For example, I have a Eastman ETB848 and have been considering trying alternate valve tunings. How would I go about doing that? Be sure I’ve seen mass produced extensions for Bach trombones, but not sure about other makers? Maybe I’d *have* to go to a tech?

You'd have to go to a tech.

Keep in mind you'd be adding a really serious amount of weight to the horn- there's a reason you don't see these almost anywhere.

GavinFYoung wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 8:31 am Can valve extensions like that be purchased for any horn? For example, I have a Eastman ETB848 and have been considering trying alternate valve tunings. How would I go about doing that? Be sure I’ve seen mass produced extensions for Bach trombones, but not sure about other makers? Maybe I’d *have* to go to a tech?

Be careful talking about "mass produced" here... we are talking maybe dozens.

Bach, Edwards, and Olds all made them.

If I were interested, I would buy talk to a tech and either buy one from Edwards and modify stuff to make it fit or have them order a bunch of tubing parts from their favorite vendor and build from pieces.

Cheers,
Andy

Are there ways to offset the considerable amount of added weight to the back? I imagine especially the low C extension is very heavy and I wonder how I played would deal with that kind of a balance issue? There’s really no counterweight for the front of the instrument, and I can only imagine a heavier bell being used to offset weight.

Balance is not the issue, weight is the issue.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 9:59 am Balance is not the issue, weight is the issue.

No, balance is the issue. I could hold my horn up with the D extension, but I could not hold it at an angle that allowed my lips to vibrate.

And once again, I'm going to get a little crotchety.

I struggled for years with double valve notes. I got my original Bach open-wrapped, I tried the D valve, I had Thayers put on it...on and on and on.

True confession: I was one of the top young bass trombonists in the US when I started grad school at New England Conservatory, and I did not manage to play one good low C in my ensembles placement audition when I got there. Not one. I won my first professional audition in large part by sheer luck; they asked to hear nothing lower than E just below the bass clef staff.

My problem was not the horn. It was not even air.

It was embouchure.

It was not until I stopped trying to make my instrument ever more "free-blowing" and actually addressed my embouchure that I achieved consistent tone production in the double valve register.

You can certainly make some tone production issues easier with well-chosen equipment, but you still have to deal with the tone production issues.

Finally, as much fun as it to listen to Don Harwood play THAT LOUD in that video, if you think you will need to play THAT LOUD in any orchestra, anywhere, ever, you are simply mistaken.

That type of extension should be relatively inexpensive to make for a competent tech. (Definitely short of the $1k+ that Bach charges).

I believe I've seen pictures of the Edwards ones that essentially involve making an 'O' in the back, so some of the length is contained in the loop(s?). I can't find that picture though. I imagine that would help to some degree with the balance issues.

I definitely have no reason to be making one anytime soon myself though. I've thought about other combinations for the bass I have but I've really settled on Bb/F/G/Eb. I have a D attachment for Bb/F/Gb/D which puts B natural in a pretty comfortable position. I could possibly see the utility of Bb/F/bF/Db since that puts some of the low stuff even closer... I don't mind the 2nd valve though. If anything, I'll play Eb or D in a closer position because I like the extra resistance and the G attachment is unbelievably useful in the bass clef register that I don't know if I'll ever really play anything else at this point.

There are no trigger-range notes in that bass trombone part and when he's on screen he appears to be using conventional no-valve and 1st valve (F) positions.

If this C attachment is needed it must be for some other piece on the same program.

Has the player himself ever spoken on this rig?

And James Levine's conducting looks like nonsense in this video.

I'm pretty sure that during the period that Harwood had that set-up, it was his main horn. He used it daily, just as there are plenty of players that would play the "Common Man" with a regular double valve horn, and wouldn't switch to a single because they didn't need it for the piece. It was a fad - something that he didn't continue with for that long. We all try things, and some work out while others get discarded. Don Harwood wasn't my teacher, but he was very kind to me when I was a student and when I started subbing in the NY Philharmonic. He often showed up with some new equipment - he enjoyed testing out new stuff, and always sounded good whenever I heard him.

I played for Levine once or twice. He was a good conductor (except by some reports, towards the end when his health was bad). He wasn't particularly a good human being - I'll leave it at that.

Jim Scott

Re: Levine - I played for him several times towards the end of his career in Boston. He was not always easy to follow, but there was no denying the quality of what he heard and how keen his sense of orchestral balance and color was.

At the highest levels, conductors do not have to be traffic cops. Beat patterns are largely unnecessary, and cues convey character more than "play now." The New York Philharmonic can famously play Bernstein's Candide Overture without any conductor in front of them at all, because they know how to listen and play together.

And back to the original topic, I'm sure that was Harwood's primary instrument at that time, and he was playing it more or less regardless of repertoire.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 10:24 am True confession: I was one of the top young bass trombonists in the US when I started grad school at New England Conservatory, and I did not manage to play one good low C in my ensembles placement audition when I got there. Not one. I won my first professional audition in large part by sheer luck; they asked to hear nothing lower than E just below the bass clef staff.

My problem was not the horn. It was not even air.

It was embouchure.

Thanks for your candor, Gabe!

At the highest level... I would expect less shriekingly discordant trumpets. The real work of the conductor is in the rehearsal and his keen... whatever... did not fix that.

And he doesn't need to be a traffic cop? I guess not, but why is he pretending to do the traffic cop motions at all then? He's doing the traffic cop motions... why not do them well?

I[m aware that ensemble players don't need to get every beat from the conductor. But we have conductors because ensembles DO need essential information from them.

This performance sounds like they are having to wing it without him.

Sorry - couldn't disagree more. One of the best trumpet sections in the business, who sound quite good to my ears. Ensemble is pretty good too, although the very slow tempo bothers me a bit, and that makes the last note difficult for all.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 12:30 pm Sorry - couldn't disagree more. One of the best trumpet sections in the business, who sound quite good to my ears. Ensemble is pretty good too, although the very slow tempo bothers me a bit, and that makes the last note difficult for all.

Jim Scott

Agreed. And Levine is completely clear here. By the time I played for him, every baton motion was so small as to be barely visible.

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon May 30, 2022 12:30 pm Sorry - couldn't disagree more. One of the best trumpet sections in the business, who sound quite good to my ears. Ensemble is pretty good too, although the very slow tempo bothers me a bit, and that makes the last note difficult for all.

Jim Scott

I agree.

I feel like this piece is tough to sound REALLY good on and very easy to sound bad on. This video is among the best live versions I’ve heard.

It sounds awful on my phone speakers because the treble isn’t well balanced on such cheap output but on my Bose headphones it sounds really good