Bach Slide questions

[posaunebone]

Wondering a few things about Bach trombone slides as I consider trying a few things with my current slides now that I have my bell section completed.

Is there any particular reason that lightweight slides have rounded sockets for the outer slide cross brace versus the standard yellow brass slide diamond sockets?

Also noticing different years of Bach slides will have brass bracing / brace tubes vs nickel. Wondering if there's an appreciable difference here, or if it was just a cost thing depending on the era? Seems older slides use nickel, newer and artisan use brass.

Lastly, oversleeves - not present on the lightweight slide because of nickel vs brass outers so they're not needed, or does it also have something to do with response / playing characteristics? Any advantage to keeping oversleeves on an otherwise lightweight slide?

[Matt K]

I didn’t realize this until someone pointed it your to me but apparently nickel and yellow brass slides are similar in weight. I had thought nickel was lighter than brass. So it might be more accurate to ask why they do nt make lightweight yellow brass slides rather than why their nickel slides don’t have over sleeves. (Which is how I interpreted your question).

Some people find that the overleeves help give the sound more heft or to be less “thin” than light slides. All nickel slides can be a little brighter than yellow. You seldom see over sleeves on a nickel slide. I’ve maybe seen one ever iirc. Unfortunately, I can’t speak to why as I’d imagine that it might help to counter some of the brightness that a nickel slight might have.

That said, I do have experience with lightweight yellow slides and I really like that combination. I don’t find it to be too light, as some might describe a slide w/o oversleeves. I find it to be easier to hold (the oversleeves cause some discomfort between my fingers oddly enough because of the increased diameter), be more nimble, and slightly more colorful than with oversleeves. But I also prefer a nickel crook, generally. That combination of attributes works well for me.

Yamaha, interestingly enough, has a hybrid that I’ve never received a satisfactory answer for how they are made… it isn’t lightweight per se, but it also doesn’t have oversleeves. On the 400-60 series, many have the other tube drawn slightly thicker at the top than the bottom. This results in a. Sort of built in oversleeves that isn’t quite as thick as an oversleeve. I quite like these slides, personally. Perfect width, a little more oomph to the sound but without going overboard.

[Burgerbob]

Is there any particular reason that lightweight slides have rounded sockets for the outer slide cross brace versus the standard yellow brass slide diamond sockets?

I have a feeling this is a "because it has always been that way" situation.

Lastly, oversleeves - not present on the lightweight slide because of nickel vs brass outers so they're not needed, or does it also have something to do with response / playing characteristics? Any advantage to keeping oversleeves on an otherwise lightweight slide?

Bach has both of the extremes as standard slides. "Heavy" slides with oversleeves, yellow tubes, yellow crook, or "light" slides with all nickel. Most things in between also work. There are a ton of Edwards slides with no oversleeves and all yellow construction, which works pretty well. There are a few rare custom nickel heavy slides, with all nickel construction and oversleeves. A common mod to Bach slides is to take a normal slide and add a nickel crook.

Everything makes a difference, it's up to you to find out what you like!

[jorymil]

I didn’t realize this until someone pointed it your to me but apparently nickel and yellow brass slides are similar in weight. I had thought nickel was lighter than brass. So it might be more accurate to ask why they do nt make lightweight yellow brass slides rather than why their nickel slides don’t have over sleeves. (Which is how I interpreted your question).

"nickel" slides here are nickel silver, which has to be one of the more annoyingly named alloys, since it's only 20% nickel and 0% silver (60% copper, 20% nickel, 20% zinc). It's a harder metal than yellow brass, which helps explain why slides can be made lighter: you need less material to maintain durability. Basically you're swapping out 10% copper and 10% zinc to go from yellow brass to nickel silver, so the actual masses of the two metals aren't that different (Ni, Cu, and Zn are next to each other on the periodic table).

Gotta say I prefer the term "cupronickel" over "nickel silver," but the name's stuck.

[posaunebone]

Yeah definitely time to start acquiring slides...

My main slide the last few years has been an oddball. Nickel tubes, oversleeves, yellow tenor crook. It's been great but no longer matches up well with the now corrected bell section. Likely going to rebuild it into a standard lightweight slide (no oversleeves, all nickel tubes and crook). As it stands definitely not as bright as a regular lightweight slide, but maybe at the expense of tightening up a bit in the upper register regardless of leadpipe choice.

Spent a rehearsal just now on an eBay acquisition. Someone put a Bach nickel crook on a standard 42 slide. Loved it. So much better slotting, response, and definitely more efficient.

I have a stock 42 Slide on the way too to add to the comparison (or more likely use as a donor for a rebuild).

Still curious about if some of the braces / socket choices have anything to do specifically with the type of slide. The real answer will be "try it and find out" but those little design choices interest me - same as how I just noticed 42BO's have seemingly been using nickel on the rotor port into slide receiver. A design choices for durability? Sound difference? Just curious how the little things make a difference to inform any further slide builds I may have my tech do

[ithinknot]

Yes, as above, any material can be used for a lightweight slide. LW just means no sleeves - and sleeves can be drawn as well as separate. There are plenty of standard/heavy nickel slides out there: Holton, various Yamahas, King, (Benge are yellow with drawn sleeves) etc.

Is there any particular reason that lightweight slides have rounded sockets for the outer slide cross brace versus the standard yellow brass slide diamond sockets?

At this point, this is just How Bachs Look. But there are plausible process reasons for the original decision. The diamond flanges have to be laid down with a burnisher and then take a little more cleanup after soldering (bleed out at the points, etc) so there might have been a desire to reduce buffing on an unprotected slide tube in an area that would subject to handling wear. Or the concern was with reducing the surface area and thus soldering time. The heat from soldering can slightly distort an unsleeved thin-walled outer tube. Nothing too dramatic, but if you look carefully at the lower outer of a LW slide with one of those much larger protective flanges (thinking about the Williams design here, as adopted by various others) there can be some very slight heat wiggles left in the vicinity.

[Bonearzt]

I didn’t realize this until someone pointed it your to me but apparently nickel and yellow brass slides are similar in weight. I had thought nickel was lighter than brass. So it might be more accurate to ask why they do nt make lightweight yellow brass slides rather than why their nickel slides don’t have over sleeves. (Which is how I interpreted your question).

"nickel" slides here are nickel silver, which has to be one of the more annoyingly named alloys, since it's only 20% nickel and 0% silver (60% copper, 20% nickel, 20% zinc). It's a harder metal than yellow brass, which helps explain why slides can be made lighter: you need less material to maintain durability. Basically you're swapping out 10% copper and 10% zinc to go from yellow brass to nickel silver, so the actual masses of the two metals aren't that different (Ni, Cu, and Zn are next to each other on the periodic table).
Gotta say I prefer the term "cupronickel" over "nickel silver," but the name's stuck.

"nickel silver" sounds better than "nickel zinc"....

Another incorrect idea is that nickel slides are physically lighter than brass slides. Someone, somewhere posted a chart comparing slides, and comparable slides were all within a couple of grams of each other.

Now, nickel slides might SOUND lighter, but probably due to the easier, quicker response on articulations.
And nickel slides can also be a bit noisier, scratchy, sounding. Which I attribute to the material.

Scientific proof?
Nope!
Just my observations over the last 30ish years of working on slides...

[Doug Elliott]

In recent years or decades there's been a lot of interest in the sound differences between materials and construction. It didn't used to be that way.... Oversleeves were for strength and stability and to minimize heat distortion from soldering at the hand brace. Nickel outer tubes were stiffer and didn't have the same need for oversleeves. The different flange shapes may have been just to keep brass and nickel parts clearly separate at the factory. And maybe also relating to soldering or strength differences between brass and nickel.

Also, for anything that may be silverplated later, plating is more consistently successful on parts that are all one metal than on parts that are mixed brass and nickel silver.

[CharlieB]

One tech told me that slide tubes that require straightening have a tendency over time to creep back to their pre-straightened shape. If this is true, are brass and nickle-silver equally prone to this? Is one alloy more tech-friendly than the other?

[BGuttman]

One tech told me that slide tubes that require straightening have a tendency over time to creep back to their pre-straightened shape. If this is true, are brass and nickle-silver equally prone to this? Is one alloy more tech-friendly than the other?

Nickel silver has much more memory than brass.

Simply annealing brass will erase its "memory". (Brass is easier to work harden than nickel silver.)

[Doug Elliott]

But brass slide tubes need to be hard, as they are from drawing the tube. They do have memory but not as much as nickel.

[CharlieB]

Thank you Bruce and Doug.
That information suggests that the harder metal (nickel silver) would be less prone to damage, but more difficult to repair, due to its stronger memory. Is that difference significant, or are we splitting hairs?

[Doug Elliott]

It's pretty significant. Nickel is harder to dent and harder to repair.

Benn told me all of the hardware on the nickel slides is lighter than the equivalent hardware on the brass slides. Thinner brace tube, thinner ferrules, the round flange, etc.

So the tubes may be the same thickness and weight but the sum of the parts is lighter.

[CharlieB]

^^
Great information, Doug.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Charlie