TromboneChat

Hey all,

I wanted to ask what would be the differences if I would cut Conn 60/62H Elkhart bell and make a screw bell out of it. Are there significant changes in response, sound, projection, color etc?

Thanks for any info.

I'm not sure I would unless you had a really pressing need for a travel 62H.

I wouldn’t. They aren’t made anymore, and they’re becoming scarce as hen’s teeth as more are retired every year.

Also, I believe it’s good to leave historically important instruments in a condition that’s as close to the original as possible. Splitting triggers is ok; just retain the original parts. You can’t go back once you cut a bell.

Maybe I should explain better the point I‘m not sure about. I have the 62H cut bell mounted on my Thein equipment which works really fine. The sound is super cool, warm and dark, really nice. Just in the higher volume parts it tends to get bright and kind of screaming, aggressive.
Now I got a 60H too and the sound is very similar on the lower dynamics, but much softer and colorful in the louder parts.

It‘s hard to say for me if the components make the difference (the 60H is completely original, the 62H quite nothing any more) or is it just the cut bell.

In my experience with Bach cut bells, they usually get a little more dynamic headroom with the ring. So if yours is actually brighter at the high dynamics, I'm not sure. Could be down to the individual bell, and obviously the chassis is completely different.

That‘s the point I don‘t understand. I bought the 60H to let install a better valve and than sell the 62H bell. But after 2 days playing it I already miss the second valve on the 60H plus there would be more to do like get the dings out of the horn, maybe strip of the lacquer etc. which costs. On the other hand, and that‘s maybe a sacrileg, I could just swap the bells and get a lighter original bell on the heavy horn and a heavier bell on the light horn.

Personally, the last thing I would do to an Elkhart Conn would be cut it to affect the sound I'm getting out of it. If I wanted a travel horn, maybe. I would very much first recommend making other adjustments. Especially more reversible ones. Thein are modular right? Maybe just get another bell for the loud type of playing you're wanting. It also already has a screw bell so perhaps seeing if someone can make you another flare for it that is a touch heavier?

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:25 pm Personally, the last thing I would do to an Elkhart Conn would be cut it to affect the sound I'm getting out of it. If I wanted a travel horn, maybe. I would very much first recommend making other adjustments. Especially more reversible ones. Thein are modular right? Maybe just get another bell for the loud type of playing you're wanting. It also already has a screw bell so perhaps seeing if someone can make you another flare for it that is a touch heavier?

Good point. But a vintage bell is actually what I want. If I would swap the bells, how would that change the sound using my Thein chassis?

meine wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:21 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:25 pm Personally, the last thing I would do to an Elkhart Conn would be cut it to affect the sound I'm getting out of it. If I wanted a travel horn, maybe. I would very much first recommend making other adjustments. Especially more reversible ones. Thein are modular right? Maybe just get another bell for the loud type of playing you're wanting. It also already has a screw bell so perhaps seeing if someone can make you another flare for it that is a touch heavier?

Good point. But a vintage bell is actually what I want. If I would swap the bells, how would that change the sound using my Thein chassis?

Swapping those bells isn't the hugest deal in the world for a tech. Just don't go doing it a half dozen times and they'll be fine

I was assuming you were wanting the Thein slide/valve to be similar to your Conn, where the loud side was more controlled. I’ve never heard of a screw bell conversion making something brighter though I suppose that’s possible , but if I were to hazard a guess I’d say it’s an attribute of the Thein OR the bell it ha currently is brighter than your all original conn. I also presume that the Thein is modular since I’ve only seen modular ones but that may well not be the case… which would make my suggestion much less useful. But if you were to get another bell you could keep the Conn bell on it now and use the new bell for loud stuff.

Reason I suggest that is that you already have a Conn screw bell and you don’t like the way it plays so I don’t know if replacing it with another Conn with a screw bell would yield any better results.

And since you already have a screw bell, the other thought I had is you could get a 2nd flare (in contrast with the stem; so not the full bell) that was a little heavier. The heaviness typically holds up a little better at louder volumes. Might not be better but better than chopping up an Elkhart bell imo

If you want to experiment with the effect of adding mass to your bell (I presume that is notional factor of a screw bell) you could get some modeling clay and add a ring of it on the bell.

Or some of those magnets that are banned because kids keep swallowing them.

There used to be a "Tone Enhancer" sold that was essentially a clip on ring that put a lump of brass where the screw bell collar would go.

https://www.wwbw.com/Amrein-Tone-Enhanc ... 28973.wwbw

I had one, it made no perceptible difference in the sound.

From what I can tell, he's not going to cut his 60H bell, just perhaps mount it on the Thein.

meine wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:21 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:25 pm Personally, the last thing I would do to an Elkhart Conn would be cut it to affect the sound I'm getting out of it. If I wanted a travel horn, maybe. I would very much first recommend making other adjustments. Especially more reversible ones. Thein are modular right? Maybe just get another bell for the loud type of playing you're wanting. It also already has a screw bell so perhaps seeing if someone can make you another flare for it that is a touch heavier?

Good point. But a vintage bell is actually what I want. If I would swap the bells, how would that change the sound using my Thein chassis?

Just please don't cut another J-bend to interface with the tuning slide... those are becoming harder and harder to find.

Cheers,
Andy

Burgerbob got it right. If I swap the bells, the uncut will be on the Thein, the cut one on the 60H. And I won‘t cut any j-bend any more, that‘s for sure!

Robcat2075 this ring could be a good help to find out how the uncut bell would sound with a screw (which I don‘t want to make). Just I can‘t open the link to get this ring...

Ah! That makes the most sense. I was thrown off by the subject of the thread.

Unfortunately, it looks like the item is no longer for sale:

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/brass-i ... r-trombone

Christian Lindberg had something called a "resistance balancer" that Conn-Selmer used to seel but it looks like its no longer available. I had a set that I can't seem to find but you might post a link asking here and someone might sell you one. Its a piece of cloth and the biggest has two small brass rods that can be inserted to add weight. It probably has less a chance of scratching the bell than the amerin as well.

People used to even put duct tape in that spot but that's fallen out of vogue too.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:57 am Ah! That makes the most sense. I was thrown off by the subject of the thread.

Unfortunately, it looks like the item is no longer for sale:

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/brass-i ... r-trombone

Christian Lindberg had something called a "resistance balancer" that Conn-Selmer used to seel but it looks like its no longer available. I had a set that I can't seem to find but you might post a link asking here and someone might sell you one. Its a piece of cloth and the biggest has two small brass rods that can be inserted to add weight. It probably has less a chance of scratching the bell than the amerin as well.

People used to even put duct tape in that spot but that's fallen out of vogue too.

Well, my english was better once sorry for the missunderstanding

Nah, your English is perfectly fine. I'm a native speaker and sometimes I look back on what I wrote and question my own writing!

thanks

meine wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:24 am
Robcat2075 this ring could be a good help to find out how the uncut bell would sound with a screw (which I don‘t want to make). Just I can‘t open the link to get this ring...

The link loads for me...

https://www.wwbw.com/Amrein-Tone-Enhanc ... 28973.wwbw

... but it's a discontinued item. No longer available.

If I could find mine in my pile o' junk I could sell it to you but then... I'd feel bad because I don't think it really does anything.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:43 pm

meine wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:24 am
Robcat2075 this ring could be a good help to find out how the uncut bell would sound with a screw (which I don‘t want to make). Just I can‘t open the link to get this ring...

The link loads for me...

https://www.wwbw.com/Amrein-Tone-Enhanc ... 28973.wwbw

... but it's a discontinued item. No longer available.

If I could find mine in my pile o' junk I could sell it to you but then... I'd feel bad because I don't think it really does anything.

No problem, I think I‘ll make the swap. I tested both instruments today and I think the uncut bell will work better on the Thein.

Please let me know if you ever decide to sell the cut-bell 60H (or just that bell)!

20posaunen wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:33 am Please let me know if you ever decide to sell the cut-bell 60H (or just that bell)!

Sent you a mail