TromboneChat

I feel kind of stupid posting this, but how would you practice breath attacks? I’ve heard that you should start with your lips touching, not forcefully closed, and let the air push the lips apart to vibrate. That seems a little weird for me and i’m not sure if that’s the “correct” way to practice breath attacks. I would schedule a lesson with doug elliott but i don’t really have the money for that.

Yup. Basically doing everything you usually do but taking out the crutch of the tongue- many people, including myself, use the tongue a little too much to start notes (air pressure, the position in the mouth).

I find that if I can air attack a note with a clean start, then I am playing much more efficiently than I would without that ability. This made a HUGE difference below the staff for me in the last few months.

Some people are the other way around, where they can air attack anything but have trouble putting the tongue back in... I have to say I'm a bit jealous of this haha

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:55 pm ...
Some people are the other way around, where they can air attack anything but have trouble putting the tongue back in... I have to say I'm a bit jealous of this haha

Good opportunity for an exercise alternating different attacks note by note.

Elow wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:44 pm I feel kind of stupid posting this, but how would you practice breath attacks? I’ve heard that you should start with your lips touching, not forcefully closed, and let the air push the lips apart to vibrate. That seems a little weird for me and i’m not sure if that’s the “correct” way to practice breath attacks. I would schedule a lesson with doug elliott but i don’t really have the money for that.

I would be useful to ask yourself why that seems weird.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:56 pm I would be useful to ask yourself why that seems weird.

When i regularly play, i don’t start with my aperture closed, the air just starts the note after i tongue. If i play exactly like i would regularly play but remove the tongue, i start with an open aperture, and that’s how i’ve been practicing breath attacks. Is this a bad habit? Or is that the whole pint of air attacks

That works great if you like to waste air. I don't,

We are all different and come from different schools. Many players blow the appart, start with just touching lips.
Other start with a buzzing firmnes and an opening in the chops. I do, No air is waisted the lips start to vibrate as soon as the airflow pulls the lips together. The effect is often described as the Bernoulli effect.
As I am living in Sweden I know many players whe do breath attack like that.
Do what works for you.

When you're playing a phrase, somewhere in the middle of that phrase, you have to start a note. Maybe there's even a slight gap between notes somewhere, so you have to start a note from not playing a pitch beforehand. At that point right before your note, it's pretty likely that your lips will be touching but not vibrating. It's simpler if your setup before you play the very first note is similar.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:52 am When you're playing a phrase, somewhere in the middle of that phrase, you have to start a note. Maybe there's even a slight gap between notes somewhere, so you have to start a note from not playing a pitch beforehand. At that point right before your note, it's pretty likely that your lips will be touching but not vibrating. It's simpler if your setup before you play the very first note is similar.

I think many playrs do start all notes with the lips closed, or lightly touching. Also many players do not close the lips right before playing the note. They are used to firm up the surounding muscles, aorund the apperture.
Many players don´t know if their lips are touching or not when playing a tone after the short break in a phrase.
Breath attacks can be done on any note in the normal trombone range (or higher or lower) with an open apperture.
But for many that is not the way for them. What is the right way? The way that works. Trombone playing is not like religion. If you found the way that works best for you, stay with it. If you are usure, try something else.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:50 am

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:52 am When you're playing a phrase, somewhere in the middle of that phrase, you have to start a note. Maybe there's even a slight gap between notes somewhere, so you have to start a note from not playing a pitch beforehand. At that point right before your note, it's pretty likely that your lips will be touching but not vibrating. It's simpler if your setup before you play the very first note is similar.

I think many playrs do start all notes with the lips closed, or lightly touching. Also many players do not close the lips right before playing the note. They are used to firm up the surounding muscles, aorund the apperture.
Many players don´t know if their lips are touching or not when playing a tone after the short break in a phrase.
Breath attacks can be done on any note in the normal trombone range (or higher or lower) with an open apperture.
But for many that is not the way for them. What is the right way? The way that works. Trombone playing is not like religion. If you found the way that works best for you, stay with it. If you are usure, try something else.

As always, you offer real wisdom. When I use breath attacks, I simply think of doing one less thing than I normally do. Everything else is as usual. What is usual ? That's just my habit and not worth sharing. When I am working in the orchestra, I don't think for a moment about how I am doing the job, I'm just focused on the music...the sounds, not the print.
Chris

I used to think of starting notes with an open aperture. After decades (!) of chipped notes, some recording, a lot of reflection, and a couple of lessons with Doug, I’m now a “closed aperture” guy. I miss fewer notes.

I like Chris’s (blast) comment: “I simply think of doing one less thing than I normal do.” For me, that means I don’t have my tongue in place for the initial articulation*—the beginning or “left side” of the note.

*Over time, I’ve tried to stop using the term “attack.” I know it’s a synonym for the left side of the note. But it implies something heavy or aggressive, when one of my goals has been to reduce the explosive quality of my attacks. A work in progress.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:27 pm ...*Over time, I’ve tried to stop using the term “attack.” I know it’s a synonym for the left side of the note. But it implies something heavy or aggressive, when one of my goals has been to reduce the explosive quality of my attacks. A work in progress.

Same here. I think of "release" where the note starts when the tongue withdraws rather than when it extends (strikes, attacks, etc.).

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:13 am That works great if you like to waste air. I don't,

I use the "p" (closed lips, just try "p" without open lips) to activate my or my students breath support, kind of coughing or laughing with the "p" sylable. It must sound very percussive..Very helpful for synchronizing tongue and diaphragma in the next step. And you need the closed lips feeling.
Many students begin with open aperture until the wall occurs...but it is never to late to change that!!

I am not telling players how to play or doing air attacks unless they are my students. Just saying that as people are different, there are different solutions to playing problems.

Again: many players make a thing of starting the tone with closed lips, if it works, fine! If it does not, well maybe you should try something else?

Again: many players let the chops be prepared to the tone they are going to play. That works for a great many players.
Many of those players start with a open aperture. Many players don´t think about if the aperture is open or not.

If the breath attack works fine with a open aperture, fine! I see no reason to mess with it. If it does not work, well, try something else.

Yes the word attack does implie something else than what we want, but the word have been used so long, most players know that it is not really an attack but a realise. That have been said thousends of times.

When I learned the breath attack (60 years ago) it was suposed to give a better control over the attacks. Or realise if you like.

Merry Christmas!