TromboneChat

Heya gang. I have posted on a few topics about tuning pitches and increasing endurance using the tongue. The tongue is a much stronger muscle than your corners, and is essential for changing registers and controlling the air through your aperture. However, I am not really eloquent and I don't think I ever got my point across in those discussions. Check out this video from the greatest tuba player in the world, who explains far better than I ever could:

And his native language isn't even English!

Oystein is easily the best tuba virtuoso of our time, and possibly all time. Incredible player.

Nice. It feels good to have some kind of validation from the authority of a pro. The language we use tends to turn us into physics deniers, but this guy has thought beyond that. Congrats to him. Language can be a cage.

I would add lips are also able to manipulate the vibrating mass. That makes the string analogy include shortening, tightening, and lightening. Further, lip posture can have a shortening effect with nearly zero effort. Recent practice for me indicates the range near 8th partial F requires some kind of posture change for low effort compared to that at lower pitches at low effort. That posture seems to haul up much easier than others while also playing low. YMMV.

Great stuff, very well spoken. Nice!

Yes, this is precise, concise and well demonstrated.

What also makes it easy to accept is there is no “secret sauce” or “revolutionary new” claims made. He just clearly tells what works for him and what, to him, seem to be the reasons it works.

He does a good job of integrating the “ah eee” to higher range with controlling the aperture of the embouchure at the same time.

Nothing really new about the content, but really well delivered. I like how it shows the interdependence of the face and oral cavity. They work together sympathetically when the system is functioning well.

The-arguments start when people quibble over the relative importance of each part of the system.It doesn’t matter. Both need to be correct, and both need to interact with the mouthpiece rim.

This seems consistent with Doug Yeo’s fMRI videos and Eli Epstein’s ideas (to name 2 other sources). And the photo on the cover of the Maggio book for that matter.

What I found especially interesting was the increased tension (smile embouchure?) vs. shortening the embouchure.

Frankly, I watched Mr. Baadsvik and, applying his ideas, then popped out some high Fs just like that. It’s been a while since I could do that.

This is very well explained, The best thing that happend on the TC this year.

Great video, and rather apropos for myself just having had a lesson with Doug.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:05 pm This seems consistent with Doug Yeo’s fMRI videos and Eli Epstein’s ideas (to name 2 other sources). And the photo on the cover of the Maggio book for that matter.

What I found especially interesting was the increased tension (smile embouchure?) vs. shortening the embouchure.

Frankly, I watched Mr. Baadsvik and, applying his ideas, then popped out some high Fs just like that. It’s been a while since I could do that.

This is precisely what the guy in the other pedagogy video (I forget his name, but his idea split everyone) was trying to explain when he talked about moving his embouchure forward.

Have to try this. He explains very clear his thoughts! I can play rather high, but control up there has always been a mysterium for me.
Leif

This is a very good video and the fruit theory is ingenious.
Another aspect of air stream is very important, too. This is the throat.
VERY many of my students struggle with high notes (for some of them even the 4th partial is high).
A bad habit is to close the throat (whatever the more precise english word may be). This is a kind of reflex when lifting heavy weights etc.
I recommend to attack with "GI" (GEE) to open up the throat. In a short time most of my little trombone monsters do it right and the diaphragma starts too work, too. Sounds horrible in the beginning but it works. Then it will be possible to change the attack back to "tee" (I never use "ta" because it deadens my sound and projection..although it might be a "ta" in the low register I think "tee"..but maybe I am crazy
Maybe this little exercise can help some fellows getting it together..

HermanGerman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:31 am A bad habit is to close the throat (whatever the more precise english word may be). This is a kind of reflex when lifting heavy weights etc.

Agreed, but I like to think of a closing throat more as an uncontrollable consequence of the tongue not working right than as a problem in of itself. As in: the tongue doesn't focus the air properly, and an involuntary clenching of the throat becomes a secondary response.

(Man, it sure helps to have a world class guy say the same thing a nobody may have also said.)

Today I tried the approach outlined in the video coupled with an approach Doug E showed me a few months ago. The results were immediate. A high range exercise I’d repeatedly struggled with came good and felt a much easier blow. Thank you for posting this game changer Harrison.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 am

HermanGerman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:31 am A bad habit is to close the throat (whatever the more precise english word may be). This is a kind of reflex when lifting heavy weights etc.

Agreed, but I like to think of a closing throat more as an uncontrollable consequence of the tongue not working right than as a problem in of itself. As in: the tongue doesn't focus the air properly, and an involuntary clenching of the throat becomes a secondary response.

This, exactly.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:53 am Heya gang. I have posted on a few topics about tuning pitches and increasing endurance using the tongue. The tongue is a much stronger muscle than your corners, and is essential for changing registers and controlling the air through your aperture. However, I am not really eloquent and I don't think I ever got my point across in those discussions. Check out this video from the greatest tuba player in the world, who explains far better than I ever could:

Tangent
Oystein studied for a while at The Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm, at the same time I studied there. I think he studied with Michael Lind, a Swedish tuba player and soloist who was a teacher there at the time. I remember Oystein had a lot more hair back then, big red hair. He was an incredible player already.

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:37 am (Man, it sure helps to have a world class guy say the same thing a nobody may have also said.)

Ouuuuuch. That burns so good. Oystein is on another planet, though. No one should be comparing anyone to him.

...

The crazy thing is that his imagery for the upper register is a blueberry, on tuba. What does this say about our trombone pedagogy that demands everything be as open as possible?

aboumaia wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:50 am I was introduced to this "tongue/oral cavity size" concept by a trumpeter friend a few years ago... and it simply turned my playing so much natural and easy-going. I learned to incorporate it in my playing, working with Maggio's book. It is close to Sabutin's concept of thinking of "overtone singing", isn't it ?

It's a pity that this is not teached as a basis (at least in the conservatories when I learned to play, years ago), or that reputed players like Tom Ervin advice not to use this... (quotation below)

Capture d’écran 2021-12-09 à 09.45.36.png

It looks to me like Tom Ervin IS saying to use this concept, just not to shrink the oral cavity too soon or too low. Sounds like he is advocating for matching your oral cavity to your register.

...

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:25 am

aboumaia wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:50 am I was introduced to this "tongue/oral cavity size" concept by a trumpeter friend a few years ago... and it simply turned my playing so much natural and easy-going. I learned to incorporate it in my playing, working with Maggio's book. It is close to Sabutin's concept of thinking of "overtone singing", isn't it ?

It's a pity that this is not teached as a basis (at least in the conservatories when I learned to play, years ago), or that reputed players like Tom Ervin advice not to use this... (quotation below)

Capture d’écran 2021-12-09 à 09.45.36.png

It looks to me like Tom Ervin IS saying to use this concept, just not to shrink the oral cavity too soon or too low. Sounds like he is advocating for matching your oral cavity to your register.

How did you get that out of that quoted paragraph? It doesn't say that anywhere in there, with a cautionary exception made for trumpet.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:05 am

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:25 am

It looks to me like Tom Ervin IS saying to use this concept, just not to shrink the oral cavity too soon or too low. Sounds like he is advocating for matching your oral cavity to your register.

How did you get that out of that quoted paragraph? It doesn't say that anywhere in there, with a cautionary exception made for trumpet.

“Not until we are playing well into the trumpet range”

Hes not talking about literally playing trumpet. Hes talking about playing high on the trombone.

Note that the trumpet range starts just one octave above the trombone. High range on the trumpet starts on Bb 4 lines above the bass staff. Trombones can play an octave above that, and that is probably where you would really need the arched tongue.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:10 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:05 am

How did you get that out of that quoted paragraph? It doesn't say that anywhere in there, with a cautionary exception made for trumpet.

“Not until we are playing well into the trumpet range”

Hes not talking about literally playing trumpet. Hes talking about playing high on the trombone.

No one here thought he was literally talking about trumpet playing. It's fair to say that "well into the trumpet range" on trombone would be well above our high Bb, the middle note on a trumpet, much higher than the notes Oystein was using this technique for. So, that's pretty high. Let's dive into his verbiage here, because there is no way what he wrote is him advocating for the same thing that Oystein is.

Note that each item he writes about is in a list of things he has prefaced by saying you shouldn't do them. I'll put my interpretation of what he writes in parenthesis below each sentence:

Tah-Ee, say that and "watch" what your tongue does.
(Here is this thing we can do. I don't actually know how it works because I can't actually see it, so I'm using humorous quote marks)

This arching of the tongue is a fundamental tenet of range changes in many trumpet books; it may be necessary on trumpet.
(Lots of trumpet books say you should do this thing; maybe that's true on trumpet, lolz)

It is not necessary on low brass, not until we are well into the trumpet range.
(Don't do this. Not unless you are trying to play high like a stupid trumpet)

Tah-ee is easily overdone and can contribute a hissing sound to your tone.
(It's easy to go crazy with this thing and it will make you sound bad like a snake)

Try to avoid arching the tongue as long as possible;
(Like, don't do this. Resist the urge)

Play with a big mouth
(Don't do it)

Hot potato
(The opposite of what Oystein wants you to picture in your mouth. Something burny and yucky)

Slow air
(Let's throw in slow air because I am a pedagogue)

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:46 pm

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:37 am (Man, it sure helps to have a world class guy say the same thing a nobody may have also said.)

Ouuuuuch. That burns so good. Oystein is on another planet, though. No one should be comparing anyone to him.

Oh, man, I suspect I have yet another failure to communicate. The reference here is intended to be entirely autobiographical.

aboumaia wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:50 am I was introduced to this "tongue/oral cavity size" concept by a trumpeter friend a few years ago... and it simply turned my playing so much natural and easy-going. I learned to incorporate it in my playing, working with Maggio's book. It is close to Sabutin's concept of thinking of "overtone singing", isn't it ?

It's a pity that this is not teached as a basis (at least in the conservatories when I learned to play, years ago), or that reputed players like Tom Ervin advice not to use this... (quotation below)

Capture d’écran 2021-12-09 à 09.45.36.png

Somewhere around forty years ago I got this Ervin type advice. Probably the single most destructive thing to happen to my playing.

I think when describing playing sensations that we need to be careful. The way it feels to one player can be drastically different for another. I don't think that Oystein literally put pieces of fruit into his mouth to check how large or small it makes his oral cavity. In fact, he states in his video that "he imagines" an apple in his mouth. I can't fit an entire apple in my mouth, can anyone else?

I'm sure that for some players thinking about not raising the tongue arch helps them keep it from going too high for the upper register. Others perhaps don't raise it high enough and need to think about a blueberry in the mouth. Some, no doubt, do too much or too little tongue arch and work harder than they need to. Some players and teachers take how it feels to them to play too literally and then advise that for other players as if it were established fact. And sometimes we read advise and interpret it through the lens of our preconceived notions and perhaps misunderstand the actual intent.

Not to mention that everyone's different. An appropriate tongue arch on one player isn't going to translate to a player with very different anatomy.

This is why I advocate for being as clear and objective as possible in our descriptions when we can.

The Oystein video is terrific and great advice. The Ervin quote is saying don’t over do it, which is also good advice. They can both be right. They are both advocating for a balanced air/embouchure/oral cavity approach.

Harrison: I find your interpretations above a reach.

I’m out. I’ve got things to do.

In defense of Harrison's criticism above, Ervin very explicitly wrote, "It is NOT necessary on low brass..." The context of the quoted passage is specifically in the section called "HABITS TO AVOID" in his book, so I'm not so certain that he's just advocating not to "overdo" it, he seems to be suggesting to avoid it altogether.

Ervin's caveat that only becomes necessary when we get into the "trumpet range" I think misses the better approach, which is to allow the tongue arch to gradually raise and lower according to the register being played. It's not as if when you get above high Bb that it suddenly requires you to raise your tongue arch level. The middle and lower register is more forgiving, I think, if your tongue arch isn't in the correct place, though.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:04 am In defense of Harrison's criticism above, Ervin very explicitly wrote, "It is NOT necessary on low brass..." The context of the quoted passage is specifically in the section called "HABITS TO AVOID" in his book, so I'm not so certain that he's just advocating not to "overdo" it, he seems to be suggesting to avoid it altogether.

Ervin's caveat that only becomes necessary when we get into the "trumpet range" I think misses the better approach, which is to allow the tongue arch to gradually raise and lower according to the register being played. It's not as if when you get above high Bb that it suddenly requires you to raise your tongue arch level. The middle and lower register is more forgiving, I think, if your tongue arch isn't in the correct place, though.

All of this.

FWIW, in order to get this concept across to my students I tend to use the quasi-whistling analogy, finger breathing a la Eli Epstein (which does what Dave is talking about re gradual adjustments rather than sudden changes), and the idea of "freeing" the tongue to help rather than keeping it locked in place.

One aspect of the system that Oystein left out, which I address in more or less the manner I've observed when Doug has worked with me and my students, is the angle of the airstream in the mouthpiece. In that case I try to free the left hand to help with the angle of the instrument to the face.

When these mechanisms are working well, the player does not have to use a lot of musculature to manipulate the pitch, increasing accuracy and endurance.

Uh oh...I've probably opened another can of worms.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:53 am

fantastic - I have learnt more stuff from this short video than all my trombone lessons - thank you
btw I'm trying to visit https://www.baadsvik.com/webinar whith no success - any suggestion ?

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:53 am

Wilktone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:04 am In defense of Harrison's criticism above, Ervin very explicitly wrote, "It is NOT necessary on low brass..." The context of the quoted passage is specifically in the section called "HABITS TO AVOID" in his book, so I'm not so certain that he's just advocating not to "overdo" it, he seems to be suggesting to avoid it altogether.

Ervin's caveat that only becomes necessary when we get into the "trumpet range" I think misses the better approach, which is to allow the tongue arch to gradually raise and lower according to the register being played. It's not as if when you get above high Bb that it suddenly requires you to raise your tongue arch level. The middle and lower register is more forgiving, I think, if your tongue arch isn't in the correct place, though.

All of this.

FWIW, in order to get this concept across to my students I tend to use the quasi-whistling analogy, finger breathing a la Eli Epstein (which does what Dave is talking about re gradual adjustments rather than sudden changes), and the idea of "freeing" the tongue to help rather than keeping it locked in place.

One aspect of the system that Oystein left out, which I address in more or less the manner I've observed when Doug has worked with me and my students, is the angle of the airstream in the mouthpiece. In that case I try to free the left hand to help with the angle of the instrument to the face.

When these mechanisms are working well, the player does not have to use a lot of musculature to manipulate the pitch, increasing accuracy and endurance.

Uh oh...I've probably opened another can of worms.

I don't see any worms there. That's more like a can of corned beef hash ready to be thrown into the griddle. 100% on board with everything you wrote. Both you, Gabe, and Dave.

Dave we just agreed not 50%, but 100% on something!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:36 pm Dave we just agreed not 50%, but 100% on something!

Nope, you take that back!

But seriously, I could quibble, if you want. For one thing, I find your writing quite elegant and you get your point across just fine.

But seriously for real, I do think you get your point across well.

But just to quibble, I think your interpretation of what "the guy in the other pedagogy video" was saying (I think you're referring to Dion Tucker/Chop Shop) proves my point about how we filter our own views when the instruction isn't unambiguous. A charitable interpretation of that Tom Ervin is advising in the quote above is that he's just advocating for not raising the tongue arch too high, as Kris suggested. Likewise, a charitable interpretation of Tucker's video demonstration with the picky sized aperture and very puckered embouchure formation is that he's advising to avoid a smile embouchure. My criticism of Tucker's video mirrors your criticism of Ervin's quote.

Both examples are, in my opinion, demonstrations of how when we're not teaching in person we need to be very clear and careful of what we're recommending. Leaving things open to interpretation can lead to misunderstandings or taking things too far.

I often tell my students to listen to what I mean, not what I say. They usually look back at me like I'm crazy. They're not wrong...

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:44 am

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:53 am

Agreed, but I like to think of a closing throat more as an uncontrollable consequence of the tongue not working right than as a problem in of itself. As in: the tongue doesn't focus the air properly, and an involuntary clenching of the throat becomes a secondary response.

This, exactly.

This thread is really hitting home for me. I have that book by Ervin and unfortunately is has messed me up for probably 15 years because it reinforced a very bad habit of mine (hot potato). Because of this there was a brick wall past a certain note in my range.

Fortunately Doug helped me realize what I was doing wrong. Among other things was use of my tongue. Now there's no more brick wall. Maybe more like a speed bump: sometimes barely there, sometimes annoyingly large! But I get there everytime now!

Also, I started incorporating raising my tongue not only at the height of my range but also lower. So now the range from 4th partial to 6th partial is completely tension free, whereas before I would always feel tightness in my neck and my throat.

It is interesting that the material in the video is "new" and not well-known to people.

What Mr. Baadsvik teaches about the oral cavity is like the ahh... eee... ick... progression of vowels to make in your mouth as you ascend, that one of my college teachers spoke of.

That was 40 years ago and I sort of presumed it was common pedagogy.

On the other hand, of all the teachers I had, he was the only one to bring this up so maybe it isn't well-known even among real trombone players. With later teachers, when I was having trouble with high notes, and had forgotten about ahh-eee-ick, no one brought it up.

It works, it seems like the way to go, and yet few are teaching it. I suspect many accomplished players are doing it without consciously realizing it.

Baadsvik briefly mentions the ahh-eee vowels. I think he would do better to include that more with his fruit imagery.

It's not commonly taught. When I was taking lessons they were teaching "H'oh" breath and hot potato. That was in 2005.

It wasn't until I got a larger rim mouthpiece (allowing this kind of movement), started really critically thinking about the function of my own playing, read Reinhardt, saw the MRI experiment videos that I really pieced some of the puzzle together. Also, reading Bousfield's essays.

I am grateful to my teachers. Putting these concepts into words is very difficult. There are some things that have been passed on as legendary wisdom in the US that everyone thinks they have to teach because that is what has been handed down to them. A lot of these legends is just an unfortunate impediment to efficient playing.

Hot potatoes, apples, strawberries, blueberries... i'm getting hungry.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:51 pm ...It wasn't until I got a larger rim mouthpiece (allowing this kind of movement)...

I recall my teacher was teaching ahh-ee-ick to his trumpet students too, so I'm wondering how how mouthpiece figures into this at all.

Alan Raph used to talk about toe-tah-tee-tss (instead of ick0.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:51 pm It's not commonly taught. When I was taking lessons they were teaching "H'oh" breath and hot potato. That was in 2005.

I always thought that only German classical trombone professors teach the HOH...
When I studies classical trombone they did that.. I could not do it and did not understand them because I had learned ta and ti (in the late 70ies in Germany!!)..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lkw1wwfg1kusl ... 8.jpg?dl=0

Tommy Dorsey´s trombone method from 1944, German version, sorry...my first trombone method..luckily

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:41 am
Note that each item he writes about is in a list of things he has prefaced by saying you shouldn't do them. I'll put my interpretation of what he writes in parenthesis below each sentence:

...

Try to avoid arching the tongue as long as possible;
(Like, don't do this. Resist the urge)

I'm thinking back to my college days and that one teacher who said ahh... eee... ick

Why did I get away from that and stop doing it?

Perhaps because he had presented it as something to do "if you have to". He didn't use the word "crutch" but that is the sense I came away with.

So he was teaching it but still doing the CYA thing in case the brass police knocked on the door.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:26 pm It is interesting that the material in the video is "new" and not well-known to people.

What Mr. Baadsvik teaches about the oral cavity is like the ahh... eee... ick... progression of vowels to make in your mouth as you ascend, that one of my college teachers spoke of.

That was 40 years ago and I sort of presumed it was common pedagogy.

Exactly, maybe it is a thread that got lost at some point. I know several of my teachers talked about “eee” for higher notes etc. I’m not willing to dig through my method books, but I know there are mentions of vowels scattered in a few of them.

The newish (to me) thing here is connecting the lips and oral cavity and explicitly discussing coordination between them. Coupled with the discussion of air speed and tackling the fast air quasi myth, I think the video is a work of clarification, organization and amplification of correct concepts.

It may be literally true that the velocity of the air past the lips is higher on high notes. But with the smaller opening there is less total air moving ... the reason there is less effect on the paper in his demonstration.

Speed, velocity, fast.... The first two have specific meanings to physicists, but for brass teachers and their students they are more like mental images.


Looking at my college textbook, "The Teaching of Instrumental Music" (1969) by Richard Colwell , he does mention "arched tongue" and "eee" for high range on brass instruments.

But much of his discussion is ambiguous and some will be contrary to what the player in the above video is recommending...

In his book, “Playing Horn from the Inside out,” Eli Epstein goes into this in depth. In the digital version of the book, you can watch the videos of the fMRI done with the author and horn players from the Berlin Philharmonic. I was surprised as to how much their tongues arched as they ascended. Mr. Epstein demonstrates a way to practice forming the mouth cavity with the tongue called “finger breathing.” He also gives examples of how he tunes his tongue to the exact pitches in some excerpts.

I began experimenting with the finger breathing and have found it to be very helpful, both for myself and my students. Additionally, I’ve come to suspect that the narrow space between my molars keeps my tongue from arching enough.

At any rate, it’s very helpful to form the pitches with my tongue before playing.