TromboneChat

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:33 am**

St Louis Symphony posted some photos yesterday which seem to show GP playing an independent valve bass https://www.facebook.com/stltrombones/p ... 9295635638

Bit surprising given that he was well known as an advocate of the dependent setup. Anyone know if there are any other holdouts in the professional world still using stacked rotors?

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:34 pm**

Seems like dependent bass trombones are very common in the (La) Studio and Jazz scene.
Bill Reichenbach, Alan Kaplan, formerly Phil Teele, others.
Also especially in the UK orchestras you see quite a few dependent basses from my knowledge.
If I would buy a new bass I would potentially have a preference in that direction...

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm**

Dave Taylor has also switched AFAIK, as well as Randy Campora. I'm pretty sure part of the reason was just that the manufacturers don't want to devote resources to the small sales of dependent horns, so they may as well get their artists on indies.

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:31 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm Dave Taylor has also switched AFAIK, as well as Randy Campora. I'm pretty sure part of the reason was just that the manufacturers don't want to devote resources to the small sales of dependent horns, so they may as well get their artists on indies.

Now, I have never sat and talked horns and shop with these guys, but from the conversations I have been present for… I cannot image any of these guys caring at all what resources Getzen and Edwards put or do not put to working on an independent versus a dependent. I can imagine them being interested if presented with a horn that does something they want to do better and giving it a try…. But if it didn’t do something better I have a hard time believing they would care at all. It isn’t like there is a lot of money in these endorsements.

Cheers,
Andy

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:40 pm**

Sort of like Joe not playing his Griego mouthpiece on the Rouse concerto when we saw him a few years ago.

You pose for a pic and use it when it makes sense, maybe, but you don't really get rid of your gear you love. Pretty sure Pagano will be keeping his 502d, though all his social media for the last year shows him with various new looking indie basses.

Looks like he ditched the harmonic brace too! Have a change, it's fine.

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:03 pm**

I thought I saw a video where he talked about moving over to an indie bass because one of the new Edwards valves finally felt to him like he wasn't losing tone quality from having inline valves as opposed to dependent. I could be misremembering.

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:08 pm**

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:31 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm Dave Taylor has also switched AFAIK, as well as Randy Campora. I'm pretty sure part of the reason was just that the manufacturers don't want to devote resources to the small sales of dependent horns, so they may as well get their artists on indies.
Now, I have never sat and talked horns and shop with these guys, but from the conversations I have been present for… I cannot image any of these guys caring at all what resources Getzen and Edwards put or do not put to working on an independent versus a dependent. I can imagine them being interested if presented with a horn that does something they want to do better and giving it a try…. But if it didn’t do something better I have a hard time believing they would care at all. It isn’t like there is a lot of money in these endorsements.

Cheers,
Andy

Of course, but the proof is in the pudding... The dependents are gone, the indies are in.

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:10 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:08 pm
elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:31 pm
Now, I have never sat and talked horns and shop with these guys, but from the conversations I have been present for… I cannot image any of these guys caring at all what resources Getzen and Edwards put or do not put to working on an independent versus a dependent. I can imagine them being interested if presented with a horn that does something they want to do better and giving it a try…. But if it didn’t do something better I have a hard time believing they would care at all. It isn’t like there is a lot of money in these endorsements.

Cheers,
Andy
Of course, but the proof is in the pudding... The dependents are gone, the indies are in.

I mean, it makes sense. If dependent sales are dropping, there won't be a lot of time and money put into developing and improving those horns as opposed to indies.

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:17 pm**

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:31 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm Dave Taylor has also switched AFAIK, as well as Randy Campora. I'm pretty sure part of the reason was just that the manufacturers don't want to devote resources to the small sales of dependent horns, so they may as well get their artists on indies.
Now, I have never sat and talked horns and shop with these guys, but from the conversations I have been present for… I cannot image any of these guys caring at all what resources Getzen and Edwards put or do not put to working on an independent versus a dependent. I can imagine them being interested if presented with a horn that does something they want to do better and giving it a try…. But if it didn’t do something better I have a hard time believing they would care at all. It isn’t like there is a lot of money in these endorsements.

Cheers,
Andy

Well if your horn dies and the manufacturer is no longer making anything in the old spec, there may not be much choice in switching.

mahlertwo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:03 pm I thought I saw a video where he talked about moving over to an indie bass because one of the new Edwards valves finally felt to him like he wasn't losing tone quality from having inline valves as opposed to dependent. I could be misremembering.

I'd be very interested if you can find it again! Obviously independent valves are technically superior as long as the response doesn't suffer, but aren't the Edwards using fairly standard modern rotors? To stick to dependents for superior tone quality all through the emergence of Thayers and other specialty valves and then to decide that independent standard rotors are fine after all is interesting.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:58 am**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm Dave Taylor has also switched AFAIK, as well as Randy Campora. I'm pretty sure part of the reason was just that the manufacturers don't want to devote resources to the small sales of dependent horns, so they may as well get their artists on indies.

While Dave owns independent valves, he absolutely still plays dependent as well.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:38 am**

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:17 pm
elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:31 pm
Now, I have never sat and talked horns and shop with these guys, but from the conversations I have been present for… I cannot image any of these guys caring at all what resources Getzen and Edwards put or do not put to working on an independent versus a dependent. I can imagine them being interested if presented with a horn that does something they want to do better and giving it a try…. But if it didn’t do something better I have a hard time believing they would care at all. It isn’t like there is a lot of money in these endorsements.

Cheers,
Andy
Well if your horn dies and the manufacturer is no longer making anything in the old spec, there may not be much choice in switching.

mahlertwo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:03 pm I thought I saw a video where he talked about moving over to an indie bass because one of the new Edwards valves finally felt to him like he wasn't losing tone quality from having inline valves as opposed to dependent. I could be misremembering.
I'd be very interested if you can find it again! Obviously independent valves are technically superior as long as the response doesn't suffer, but aren't the Edwards using fairly standard modern rotors? To stick to dependents for superior tone quality all through the emergence of Thayers and other specialty valves and then to decide that independent standard rotors are fine after all is interesting.

If my memory is correct (which is no guarantee, it might not have been Gerry), it was the same design Artist Rotor they're using in the 396.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 2:47 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:38 pm Dave Taylor has also switched AFAIK

I had a studio class with Dave 4 weeks ago. He played a dependent setup then, but mentioned he’s got a double digit collection of bass trombones. He also just picked up a carbon fiber bell and slide…..

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:37 pm**

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:07 pm**

Edwards says he's on the 502-I-R

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:27 pm**

Gerry Pagano is one of the (several) great personalities in the trombone world!

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:55 pm**

There will always be a place for dependent horns, and there will always be players who prefer them.

One primary difference between independent and dependent horns is the neckpipe. Independent horns tend to have very short neckpipes, while dependents have longer ones. This greatly affects the sound and feel. Whether that’s a positive or negative things depends mostly on the player…

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:30 pm**

Gerry told me in my lessons with him that he liked the resonance of a dependent set up. He even had a bass bone without a removable lead pipe. He was onto something because he had one of the most resonant sounds I’ve ever heard. He’s a kind of player you have to hear in person!

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Gerry Pagano gone independent?

Gerry Pagano gone independent?

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