TromboneChat

I seem to be stuck at pedal Eb. Other than the Teele exercises, can anyone suggest exercises to get that last bottom 4th?

Let the lips buzz. I find most people in extreme ranges run into a roadblock because they are physically keeping the chops from being able to buzz in some way. Let them be free for the air to do the work!

Of course this is vague and has many meanings in different registers and people, but it's a good starting place.

Try slurring slowly from F to E then F to Eb several times, when that is comfortable and solid on each add the D and work your way down

Try slurring slowly from F to E then F to Eb several times, when that is comfortable and solid on each add the D and work your way down

Yes! play what you can and slowly extend downwards. Takes time to develop it.

Alan Raph's "money notes" exercise can help as well...

Play a simple melody or a lick in a good for you low range. Play it a semitone lower until it sounds good, Now another semitone lower. keep on the good work. There is no limmit. Change tune sometimes.

Most of us need to do a shift for that register. If you are a pretty standard downstream player, you will want to move the mouthpiece up a bit, anchor the red of the lower lip on the rim, pull your corners down into a scowl, and let the upper lip flap away.

With practice, it's possible to get in and out of that with your regular setting smoothly.

Thanks everybody. Good advice.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:44 am ...move the mouthpiece up a bit, anchor the red of the lower lip on the rim, pull your corners down into a scowl, and let the upper lip flap away.

I don't have enough face under my nose to do that.

I've been moving the mouthpiece down and flapping the lower lip.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:04 am

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:44 am ...move the mouthpiece up a bit, anchor the red of the lower lip on the rim, pull your corners down into a scowl, and let the upper lip flap away.

I don't have enough face under my nose to do that.

I've been moving the mouthpiece down and flapping the lower lip.

Yes there you are, most basstrombonists move up, some move down. There result is the same.

It may be worthwhile playing the next higher note that sounds right first. Then modify the mouth cavity to be smaller while playing that note. Then go to the troublesome note while expanding the mouth cavity a bit. It may take some experimentation and repetition. What I experience is that I can stretch a note lower more easily if I can get it to sound well with a small mouth cavity, then use an expanding mouth cavity to assist the stretch.

I think I am describing fairly accurately what i am experiencing, but there's always a chance none of this will make any sense to anyone else!

Another view:

I increased my bass range from pedal Eb to pedal B last year. Stuck at Eb for years. Here’s what helped me:

-Take a lesson with Doug Elliott to work out your shift.
-Get a bigger rim if necessary.
-Lots of slow chromatic playing downwards and slurs into that range from the open horn’s pedal range.
-Keeping a practice log to record what’s working and what’s not.
-Really focusing on slowing down that airstream.
-Keeping the practice music-focused instead of technique-focused.

Whatever starts to work, do it religiously every day. You’ll see results.

You might have to reverse your embouchure type for that range. For example, if you are a downstream player, you may need to actually blow upstream to hit near the bore.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:33 am You might have to reverse your embouchure type for that range. For example, if you are a downstream player, you may need to actually blow upstream to hit near the bore.

Markey comments on that. I doubt it’s applicable in my case.

I’ve been working on this for a few days now. It seems to be coming along.

I wonder if this is moustache-compatible?

On the moustache, I doubt it. Thinking about the shift (which changes my embouchure to upstream) I have to make for that register, there is no way I could do it with facial hair. The mouthpiece would have half a moustache in it.

Anyone else want to weigh in on the issue of moustache compatibility before I get the razor out?

I always play better without one, for what it's worth.

I’m stropping the razor. Any other opinions?

Just try one side first.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:41 pm Anyone else want to weigh in on the issue of moustache compatibility before I get the razor out?

I trim my upper lip, but not all of it. I kind of carve out an area up there. Works for me, and i look like a hairy goof either way. I cant play with stubble.

Well, a shave turned out to be more useful than a new mpc.

I got out my Teele book (again) and watched some video of Phil. I noted the following testimonial:

The absolute quickest route to a good, strong low range that I have ever seen. This book can be a little boring (lots and lots of long low tones), but it flat out works if done correctly and with dedication."
-- Sam Burtis

Quickest route? (And, for that matter, a little boring?)

Gotta say that I haven't played Teeles in years, and I play the low range better than ever, FWIW.

My low range has never been so very good. I have tried the method to move the mouthpiece up like described earlier in this thread. But didn't work out so very good.

There is a video with Alan Ralph on YouTube and he seems to do this with a big change of mouthpiece placement. I tried but can't make it work like him. But I move it a little bit up around pedal g so I get the E flat and sometimes D rather ok and strong. Below this I'm weak. Tried to put lot of upper lips inside and make it flap, but no. For me it doesn't help with bigger mouthpiece either.

Maybe I should try the Theele method but it seems very hard to go through? And for my playing the extreme low range isn't so important. But it could have been nice to blow out that extremely low C in fff

Leif

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:07 pm Gotta say that I haven't played Teeles in years, and I play the low range better than ever, FWIW.

Me too.

My observation of the Teele is that it's like a book, "How To Hover 10 Feet Off The Ground"

Step 1: Hover two feet off the ground.
Step 2: Work up from there.

I recall in the forward he says something like he only wrote it down because people kept asking him what he did. It may not be a method he had success teaching anyone else with.

Savio wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:22 am I have tried the method to move the mouthpiece up like described earlier in this thread. But didn't work out so very good.

And what about moving down?

[quote=robcat2075 post_id=159628 time=1633789260 user_id=3697]

“I recall in the forward he says something like he only wrote it down because people kept asking him what he did. It may not be a method he had success teaching anyone else with…”

He demonstrates day 1 here:



I was a little surprised the length of the notes was not longer. He also says “Don’t shift.”, unlike Raph and Markey.

The method seems to have worked for Phil and, I guess, Sam.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 8:21 am

Savio wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 2:22 am I have tried the method to move the mouthpiece up like described earlier in this thread. But didn't work out so very good.

And what about moving down?

Tried today, but it seems impossible for me to make the under lip vibrate that much. I see the videos of Markey and A.Raph that Raph is more drastic in moving the the mouthpiece up. Should be nice to really blow out that low C and B but….At last I get the E flat and also in a good day the D very strong. In fact I think I move the same way as Markey, but he get it much stronger…maybe he practice more …..

Leif

Personally, I happened upon the lower lip thing by accident, not knowing that other people did it (it is only recently i've heard anyone else admit they shifted anywhere at all for the low notes.)

If it hadn't immediately worked that one time I would never have thought about it again.

It is a very specific placement. If I don't hit it just right the note won't sound. But then...regular mouthpiece placement is a specific thing too. Maybe if I practiced it, i could nail it every time.

I was always told to shift up to the upper lip… I continually tried to do thistle for a couple of years until I took a lesson with Steve Norrell… he suggested a shift down, and out popped an entirely new range for me. What I took from that is that everyone is built differently… and something else he said has always stuck with me… “as long as it sounds good, do whatever it takes”… that was 36 years ago… I still adhere to that quote.

So I read most of the previous replies, but to the OP:

I would also try to slow down the velocity of the air. Not sure how long you have been playing bass trombone, but when I made the switch from Large Tenor it took a fair amount of time to get the range of a bass trombone that I expected. I come and go from the Teele exercises. I would say his M idea for the correct embouchure works fairly well, I also find that his idea of not using a different embouchure from say low Bb at the bottom of the staff to be something to strive for. In order for this to work though I was shocked how slow the air need to move, yet how much air was still needed. Another way to think about is is a very slow moving huge volume of air (A fire hose vs. a garden hose emptying a container of water in the same amount of time).

Back to how long you have been playing bass trombone, if you have just started (under 2 years) I wouldn’t be to hard on your self yet. It took me a good 5 years to be happy with my sound, and it is still something I work on every day.

Good luck with developing your desired sound in the low range!

One exercise that has helped me establish a better pedal range is doing downward Remington warm-up long tone-like lip bends off pedal B-flat.

E.g. Bb-A (breathe), Bb-Ab (breathe), Bb-G (breathe), and so on, all in 1st position, as far down as you can go, trying to make the lower note sound as good/stable as possible, and hold it for as long as possible, even though it is in the "wrong" position. Try this routine once or twice a day.

If you can get the lower pedals to be stable(-ish) and sound non-horrific as false tones in the "wrong" position, then they become way easier to play when you actually use the "correct" length of tubing. With some work you can get down to double-pedal B-flat and beyond in 1st position.

Credit to Jim Fulkerson for describing this exercise to me over email. He says one can play all of Ryoanji on a King 2B and a 12C mouthpiece IIRC.

I’ve always found Ben Van Dijk’s and Jeff Reynolds’s “bulldog shift” to make sense for me. I also learned two exercises from Curran which have been super helpful 1. Center the octave/2nd octave above the note in the valve, then try to play the low note there, punch it out when you do. 2. Work in the valve range and anytime you add a valve (going from straight to one, one valve to two) punch the note, add more air into it, his reasoning was you can subconsciously teach your body to use more air and open up the cavities needs to play low that way