TromboneChat

I inherited a Schilke mouthpiece. It was probably made in the 1950's. Other than "SCHILKE" it has no markings.

I suspect it is solid silver. Is there a way to tell if it is solid silver?

Cut it in half and examine the interior. 

Physics 101: Archimedes principle.

Get a lump of brass (or silver) of equal mass as the mcp, dunk them in water and measure their respective displacement. Silver has a density of 10-12 g/cm^3 (depending on purity); brass density is in the 8.4-8.9 g/cm^3 (depending on the formulation), so silver will displace more water per unit of mass than a lump of brass of equal mass. QED.

Quote from: patrickosmith on Dec 13, 2017, 03:37AMI inherited a Schilke mouthpiece. It was probably made in the 1950's. Other than "SCHILKE" it has no markings.

I suspect it is solid silver. Is there a way to tell if it is solid silver?



Why would you suspect this is made of solid silver? Was that a thing?

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Dec 13, 2017, 05:20AMWhy would you suspect this is made of solid silver? Was that a thing?

Yes. 

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Dec 13, 2017, 05:20AMWhy would you suspect this is made of solid silver? Was that a thing?
wouldn't that be a heavy and expensive item??

Quote from: bassboneman on Dec 13, 2017, 05:43AMwouldn't that be a heavy and expensive item??
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Almont mouthpieces, like Tommy Dorsey used are solid silver. They are heavier than brass but not by much. Silver warms up quickly on the chops too, which is kind of nice. Silver is more costly than brass but not outrageously so. I wish more mouthpiece makers would offer solid silver as an option. I like the Almont that I have.

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Quote from: The Sheriff on Dec 13, 2017, 06:10AM-----

Almont mouthpieces, like Tommy Dorsey used are solid silver. They are heavier than brass but not by much. Silver warms up quickly on the chops too, which is kind of nice. Silver is more costly than brass but not outrageously so. I wish more mouthpiece makers would offer solid silver as an option. I like the Almont that I have.

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SCott, is yours one of TD's ?

Seems to me that Yamaha offers solid silver mouthpieces in the most popular sizes. I also seem to recall that the price used to begin at $600 US +, years ago.

Quote from: fsung on Dec 13, 2017, 04:29AMCut it in half and examine the interior. 

Physics 101: Archimedes principle.

Get a lump of brass (or silver) of equal mass as the mcp, dunk them in water and measure their respective displacement. Silver has a density of 10-12 g/cm^3 (depending on purity); brass density is in the 8.4-8.9 g/cm^3 (depending on the formulation), so silver will displace more water per unit of mass than a lump of brass of equal mass. QED.
Since silver has a higher density than brass it will actually displace less water per unit of mass.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 13, 2017, 06:43AMSeems to me that Yamaha offers solid silver mouthpieces in the most popular sizes. I also seem to recall that the price used to begin at $600 US +, years ago.
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600 bucks seems like price gouging to me.

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Quote from: vegasbound on Dec 13, 2017, 06:16AMSCott, is yours one of TD's ?
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No comment. Truth be told......It's on loan to me from the one and only DJ Kennedy.

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Quote from: wgwbassbone on Dec 13, 2017, 05:20AMWhy would you suspect this is made of solid silver? Was that a thing?

I'm not sure if it was a thing or not. I suspect it is solid silver because
this "SCHILKE" has no chips or peeling anywhere, and it has had daily/heavy use for over 60 years. Other mouthpieces I have show their wear on the very end of the shank where the plating is flaked away revealing the underlying metal of a different color (brass).

I don't know the whole story but I imagine it was given to Frank Crisafulli (at that time Principal Trombonist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) by Reynold Schilke as his playing career turned to businessman (instrument and mouthpiece maker).

Quote from: The Sheriff on Dec 13, 2017, 08:09AM======

No comment. Truth be told......It's on loan to me from the one and only DJ Kennedy.

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r


Ahhh it's that one!!    How is it?

Most silver plate is 0.100" or less.  Best way to tell is to carve a notch a little deeper than that and examine the notch for the different metals.  If you go to sell it for scrap metal value, this is what they will do.  If you carve the notch carefully enough you can even measure plating thickness if it's plated.

If you don't want to carve the notch, you might be able to find "foreign" elements using a high penetration X-ray fluorescence machine.

If you have two nominally identical mouthpieces and one is silver and one not, the silver one will be heavier than the plated brass.  The weight difference can easily be overshadowed by the differences in different models.

Quote from: vegasbound on Dec 13, 2017, 05:23AMYes. 

Thanks for the explanation. Clears it up.

Quote from: vegasbound on Dec 13, 2017, 09:11AMr


Ahhh it's that one!!    How is it?
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It's very good, small, but very good. I imagine it's 12C-ish in size, perhaps a tad smaller. V-cup and very efficient. I'd play it all the time but it is too small for me, though I do enjoy playing it from time to time. I always leave it sitting out so I can just grab it and play it when the mood strikes me. A Stork T2 is probably the closest to it in overall shape, but of course, the T2 is closer to a 7C size-wise. The rim on the Stork is narrower, but surprisingly it feels very similar to the Almont, and has a similar blow and feel, albeit a larger volume of sound than the Almont. There is lineage; Almont-Giardinelli-Stork. The Giardinelli blank is nearly identical to the Almont.

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A quick alternate way to see if something is silver is to take a silver mouthpiece and a non-silver mouthpiece and dunk everything except the throat in hot (not dangerously) water. Silver will heat up noticeably faster than brass, and you'll feel the transmission of heat through the mouthpiece change.

I first observed this while having the luck to eat a hot bowl of soup with a real silver spoon.

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Dec 13, 2017, 03:08PMA quick alternate way to see if something is silver is to take a silver mouthpiece and a non-silver mouthpiece and dunk everything except the throat in hot (not dangerously) water. Silver will heat up noticeably faster than brass, and you'll feel the transmission of heat through the mouthpiece change.

I first observed this while having the luck to eat a hot bowl of soup with a real silver spoon.
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Yup, that's one of the nice things about the Almont. It warms quickly on the chops.

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I'm not sure if Yamaha still offers their sterling mouthpieces. Probably just very low sales for something that costs them a bit of money to make and sell. I looked them up a few months ago and could barely find any information- mostly only trumpet forum  threads about them.

I wouldn't mind trying one, for sure.

I is VERY expensive to even start working with solid silver.  I thought about it at one time but couldn't even consider it.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 13, 2017, 03:42PMI is VERY expensive to even start working with solid silver.  I thought about it at one time but couldn't even consider it.
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There ya have it. Doug certainly knows.

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Quote from: The Sheriff on Dec 13, 2017, 03:05PM=====

It's very good, small, but very good. I imagine it's 12C-ish in size, perhaps a tad smaller. V-cup and very efficient. I'd play it all the time but it is too small for me, though I do enjoy playing it from time to time. I always leave it sitting out so I can just grab it and play it when the mood strikes me. A Stork T2 is probably the closest to it in overall shape, but of course, the T2 is closer to a 7C size-wise. The rim on the Stork is narrower, but surprisingly it feels very similar to the Almont, and has a similar blow and feel, albeit a larger volume of sound than the Almont. There is lineage; Almont-Giardinelli-Stork. The Giardinelli blank is nearly identical to the Almont.

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Yes I understood Giardinelli bought Almont's tooling when he retired......  Also that TD would send his brass players to Almont's to have mouthpieces made.....

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Dec 13, 2017, 03:08PMA quick alternate way to see if something is silver is to take a silver mouthpiece and a non-silver mouthpiece and dunk everything except the throat in hot (not dangerously) water. Silver will heat up noticeably faster than brass, and you'll feel the transmission of heat through the mouthpiece change.

I first observed this while having the luck to eat a hot bowl of soup with a real silver spoon.


Thanks for the tip! I might give that a try.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 13, 2017, 03:42PMI is VERY expensive to even start working with solid silver.  I thought about it at one time but couldn't even consider it.

There are a couple of blogs out there where people decided to make silver bullets like the Lone Ranger used.

It turned out to be extremely difficult and they never got good results. 

It would seem like a bullet might be simple compared to a mouthpiece.  But maybe not, I've never tried either.

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 14, 2017, 05:27AMThere are a couple of blogs out there where people decided to make silver bullets like the Lone Ranger used.

It turned out to be extremely difficult and they never got good results. 

It would seem like a bullet might be simple compared to a mouthpiece.  But maybe not, I've never tried either.

Bullets tend to be launched at much higher velocities than mouthpieces.

Quote from: boneagain on Dec 14, 2017, 05:45AMBullets tend to be launched at much higher velocities than mouthpieces.

Unless you had a REALLY BAD practice session. 

You talking about elemental silver, or sterling?

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 14, 2017, 07:57AMYou talking about elemental silver, or sterling?

I'm just guessing --based on how well it has weathered with heavy usage for over 60 years-- that it is silver or silver alloy of some kind.

The most popular alloy of silver is Sterling, which has 7.5% copper (balance silver).  It's much harder than pure silver and wears better.  That's probably the reason King used it for the bells.  Probably machines easier as well.

Here's a series of articles about experiments casting silver bullets.

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/ranger/

It is interesting.  but it does not seem to have occurred to them to turn the bullets on a lathe instead of casting.  You can buy rifle bullets that are lathe turned out of solid copper, silver shouldn't be that much harder.

Probably more expensive though. 

Quote from: patrickosmith on Dec 13, 2017, 03:37AM

I suspect it is solid silver. Is there a way to tell if it is solid silver?



Take it to a jewellers?

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 14, 2017, 01:00PMIt is interesting.  but it does not seem to have occurred to them to turn the bullets on a lathe instead of casting.  You can buy rifle bullets that are lathe turned out of solid copper, silver shouldn't be that much harder.

Probably more expensive though.Beyond the difficulty of procuring silver rod in the proper diameter, there would also be the issue of waste. You've making a lot of chips, and the only way you could recover any part of the cost would be to sell them as scrap.

Quote from: Pre59 on Dec 14, 2017, 02:25PMTake it to a jewellers?Where's the fun in that?

Quote from: timothy42b on Dec 14, 2017, 01:00PMHere's a series of articles about experiments casting silver bullets.

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/ranger/

It is interesting.  but it does not seem to have occurred to them to turn the bullets on a lathe instead of casting.  You can buy rifle bullets that are lathe turned out of solid copper, silver shouldn't be that much harder.

Probably more expensive though. 

Cast blanks using lost wax. Use a lathe for secondary operations such as cleaning up the rim and shank, and getting the innards the right shape. Easy peasy, assuming you are or have access to a MP geometry guru. Could even go into quasi-mass production, since casting a whole lot of wax forms is a piece of cake compared to trying to cast silver in a steel clamshell bullet mold meant for lead.

Coin silver might still be available as raw material for electrical contacts. Fat sterling wire is basic hobby-shop stock, I believe. ROI uncertain, commercial success not guaranteed...

If anything, I'd expect a solid silver mouthpiece to be cooler outdoors, since it would conduct heat away from the face a skosh quicker than brass. For marching at snowy football games, I had a clear plastic piece that was a lot more comfortable in that respect.

Quote from: The Sheriff on Dec 13, 2017, 06:10AMSilver is more costly than brass but not outrageously so.

As far as I know, silver is worth at the very least 100 times more than brass for the same volume.

I thought the idea of silver bullets was a romanticized idea that originated from before bullets needed tight tolerances. Black powder type guns.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 14, 2017, 06:27PMI thought the idea of silver bullets was a romanticized idea that originated from before bullets needed tight tolerances. Black powder type guns.

They're also handy for dealing with an outbreak of Werewolves..

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SilverBullet

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 14, 2017, 06:27PMI thought the idea of silver bullets was a romanticized idea that originated from before bullets needed tight tolerances. Black powder type guns.

You're just a youngster.  Some of us grew up watching Lone Ranger on tv.

Weren't silver bullets part of the plot in "Die Freischutz"?

Oops, it's "Der Freischutz"

I thought it was the name of a Christmas song.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Dec 14, 2017, 04:52PMAs far as I know, silver is worth at the very least 100 times more than brass for the same volume.

Yes silver is way more expensive than brass but it is still a reasonable cost in comparison to gold.

Current Gold and Silver Prices
Gold   $1,255.75
Silver   $16.09

A solid silver mouthpiece could still be had at a reasonable cost whereas solid gold would be out of the question for almost everybody.

If you could buy solid silver in bar form such as you need to make a mouthpiece (you can't), the material for one mouthpiece would cost at least $700.  Of course there would be quite a bit of waste from that but you can't really count that as much value.  All of the processes involved in minimizing waste by casting, etc, adds labor plus other materials and equipment which offsets any potential savings.

It's easy to look at the weight of a mouthpiece and calculate the price per ounce but that's only a tiny part of the cost of producing it.

If there was a market for $1000 mouthpieces I'd be doing it.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 15, 2017, 06:29AM...

If there was a market for $1000 mouthpieces I'd be doing it.

I'd bet Dave Monette would be there first

Sterling silver or coin silver is always supposed to have a mark on it identifying it as such. It could be just really thick plating.

Quote from: bbocaner on Dec 15, 2017, 06:39AMSterling silver or coin silver is always supposed to have a mark on it identifying it as such. It could be just really thick plating.

I don't think this is always the case. You won't see an ugly £ stamped on a nice piece of jewelry, especially if it's small.

Method to determine density of a mouthpiece.

Weight the mouthpiece to the nearest gram. (M)

Get a standard 500ml graduated cylinder.  Fill with 250ml of water (L1).  Carefully place the mouthpiece into the graduated cylinder and record the new level (L2).

Determine the volume of the MP in ml (V = L2-L1).  You will likely only be within +/- 2.5ml, but this will be close enough.

Determine the density of the MP (D = M/V)

If D is between 10.2 and 10.5 your mouthpiece is likely of some form of silver.

If D is between 8.3 and 8.9 your mouthpiece is likely of brass.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 15, 2017, 07:05AMI don't think this is always the case. You won't see an ugly £ stamped on a nice piece of jewelry, especially if it's small.

I am used to seeing “925” stamped on fairly small findings. At one flea market I met a fellow selling built-up silver beads and trinkets from south Asia, none of them stamped. I had no reason to doubt the percentages he claimed, based on his own testing. Most of his stuff seemed to be in the low to mid 90’s as far as percentage of silver went.

Traditionally all silver jewelry and tableware are marked with the silversmith's hallmark. Often "Sterling Silver" or ".925 Fine" ,"925" will be on the back or other hidden place. This is a statement of authenticity.

Silver plate usually lacks any such mark.

If I was making a solid sterling silver mouthpiece for TD I would certainly sign my work, even if it was a prototype. 

Quote from: RMTrombone on Dec 15, 2017, 07:38AMTraditionally all silver jewelry and tableware are marked with the silversmith's hallmark. Often "Sterling Silver" or ".925 Fine" ,"925" will be on the back or other hidden place. This is a statement of authenticity.

Silver plate usually lacks any such mark.

If I was making a solid sterling silver mouthpiece for TD I would certainly sign my work, even if it was a prototype. 

I don't think that in 1955, or thereabouts, Mr. Reynold Schilke would have concerned himself with marking this particular mouthpiece with "925," "Sterling silver" or anything the like.

Other that the marking "SCHILKE" there isn't anything on it (not even a size). It appears to be somewhere between a 51D and a 51C.

Quote from: BillO on Dec 15, 2017, 07:30AMMethod to determine density of a mouthpiece.

Weight the mouthpiece to the nearest gram. (M)

Get a standard 500ml graduated cylinder.  Fill with 250ml of water (L1).  Carefully place the mouthpiece into the graduated cylinder and record the new level (L2).

Determine the volume of the MP in ml (V = L2-L1).  You will likely only be within +/- 2.5ml, but this will be close enough.

Determine the density of the MP (D = M/V)

If D is between 10.2 and 10.5 your mouthpiece is likely of some form of silver.

If D is between 8.3 and 8.9 your mouthpiece is likely of brass.

Thanks. I might check into this at my workplace where the required equipment might be available.

Quote from: BillO on Dec 15, 2017, 07:30AMMethod to determine density of a mouthpiece.

Weight the mouthpiece to the nearest gram. (M)

Get a standard 500ml graduated cylinder.  Fill with 250ml of water (L1).  Carefully place the mouthpiece into the graduated cylinder and record the new level (L2).

Determine the volume of the MP in ml (V = L2-L1).  You will likely only be within +/- 2.5ml, but this will be close enough.

Determine the density of the MP (D = M/V)

If D is between 10.2 and 10.5 your mouthpiece is likely of some form of silver.

If D is between 8.3 and 8.9 your mouthpiece is likely of brass.

Then again if it floats, you've also ruled out silver.

And brass.