TromboneChat

I know it's not a trombone! Does sound like a trumpet.

https://youtu.be/iEFbawLh-ao

As someone who is in the materials-don't-matter camp when discussions of alternate trombone bells come up... I like that.

I wish he had played more than one note!

I am reminded of a little paperback i had about musical instrument acoustics and it had a line in it to the effect of "some people are so insistent that only the shape of the bore matters that they might go so far as to cast a trumpet out of concrete to prove their point!"

Is that a Monette?

I couldn't tell from the "construction" part, but is this simply cast in concrete or did they cast the concrete around tubing. The interface between material and air column is what counts, so if there is no embedded tube it's really concrete "trumpet". If they simply cast a concrete block around trumpet tubing it's still a trumpet.

Looked like it was a solid plastic form which he then dissolved out of the concrete with solvent, not tubing

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:40 pm I couldn't tell from the "construction" part, but is this simply cast in concrete or did they cast the concrete around tubing. The interface between material and air column is what counts, so if there is no embedded tube it's really concrete "trumpet". If they simply cast a concrete block around trumpet tubing it's still a trumpet.

It's a lost-mold casting, the printed bore gets washed out of the concrete part. The whole thing is concrete, no liner.

I would bet the sound we hear is not from the scene being filmed. You're seeing someone play a concrete block, but not hearing it.

The video says the note was actually played on the concrete block. I don't see any reason to believe it's a fake. If you watch the section of it being made, he 3D prints a form, pours the concrete, and cleans the form out of the concrete block. That would sure be a lot of work to go to just for a gag.

Not a gag at all. He has the recording gear and has done educational and technical presentations outdoors in similar locations. He plays trumpet, but not recently. That's why only one note for now. He is intent on building his lip again so he can get to bugle calls. Unfortunately the note is also about 2 cents flat from a Bb trpt middle C. No tuning slide.
Full disclosure, he's my son.

Well, I'll buy it then and take back my initial thoughts. An interesting curio. Still a gag, but not a hoax.

nileseh wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:00 pmUnfortunately the note is also about 2 cents flat from a Bb trpt middle C. No tuning slide.

That would be something to work on for version 2.0.

Obviously, he'd want it to still be concrete; adding any brass bits would spoil it. Maybe make it modular with an interchangeable mouthpiece/leadpipe section so the length can be adjusted?

With six sides to the cube you could snake six different lengths of tubing through it and play it by rotating the cube to the right side for each note.

If you could make do with just 5 semi-tones you could model 5 mouthpieces conveniently on one face, each one leading to a bell on one of the five remaining faces.

I finally got to watch the video. Very nice, I like the way he started with the performance.

One quibble: looking at the shape at 2:00, I'm not sure it's a trumpet. It looks more like a cornet to me, and sounds a bit more like a cornet. ?

In an also-possibly-true story on the internet, there is a rock on Easter Island with holes in it that can be played as a trumpet, the once-sacred Pu O Hiro

This video touches on the history




Here a tourist attempts to play it...




No word on whether he was later struck dead by angry Polynesian gods or carried off to sea by a freak downpour.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:20 amOne quibble: looking at the shape at 2:00, I'm not sure it's a trumpet. It looks more like a cornet to me, and sounds a bit more like a cornet. ?

That would depend on the bore profile. But "concrete cornet" does have the advantage of alliteration.

But the real question is: How does it blend in a section of brass trumpets?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:04 pm But the real question is: How does it blend in a section of brass trumpets?

Sounds great when it is just sitting on top of the section.

No really, set it on top of their horns... the sound will be quite satisfying.

Cheers,
Andy

I think all trumpets should be like that

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:44 pm I think all trumpets should be like that

More research required!!!

I think the difference between trumpet and cornet is the bore characteristic: the cornet is conical, the trumpet is cylindrical until the flare, then it roughly follows the Bessel Function curve. I think he used a cylindrical profile for simplicity in modeling the tube path. The spiral shape is to avoid the small radius bends seen on trumpets (and cornets) and provide a roughly similar curvature throughout. I could have been done with a series of back and forth straight paths with tight turnarounds.
Trombones are similarly cylindrical, with the absence of tight turns. Tuba, on the other hand, is a conical instrument.
Just makes the sound a bit different I guess.

nileseh wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 4:16 pm I think the difference between trumpet and cornet is the bore characteristic: the cornet is conical, the trumpet is cylindrical until the flare, then it roughly follows the Bessel Function curve. I think he used a cylindrical profile for simplicity in modeling the tube path. The spiral shape is to avoid the small radius bends seen on trumpets (and cornets) and provide a roughly similar curvature throughout. I could have been done with a series of back and forth straight paths with tight turnarounds.
Trombones are similarly cylindrical, with the absence of tight turns. Tuba, on the other hand, is a conical instrument.
Just makes the sound a bit different I guess.

https://www.robbstewart.com/difference- ... and-cornet

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 6:53 pm With six sides to the cube you could snake six different lengths of tubing through it and play it by rotating the cube to the right side for each note.

If you could make do with just 5 semi-tones you could model 5 mouthpieces conveniently on one face, each one leading to a bell on one of the five remaining faces.

OK, let us know when you've finished doing that.

that's a good piece on trumpet vs. cornet. Thanks for posting. So much for my anecdotal differences statement. There is one thing I can add. The bell flare cannot be accurately be considered to be conic. The conic section is a linear length-diameter profile while the bell flare is something else. This is an excerpt form a technical article on bells:

"Let us digress here briefly to learn the nature of the Bessel horn shape and its relation to actual musical instruments. The mathematical formula that gives the diameter D of a bell in terms of the distance y from its large open end is
D = B/(y + y0)
where y0 and B are chosen to give proper diameters at the large and small ends, and  is the "flare parameter" that dominates the acoustical behavior of the air column. This parameter differs from one instrument to another, depending on its mouthpiece and leader-pipe design. Trumpet bells as far back as those made by William Bull in the seventeenth century correspond closely to the shapes of Bessel horns having values of  that lie between the limits of 0.5 and 0.65. It is interesting to realize that the bell shapes that have evolved by the traditional combining of eye-pleasing artistry with practical experience are notably similar to one another in their acoustical description."

That funny character (in the original a Greek alpha that I don't know how to type here) is an exponent, the "flare parameter". The equation describes a bell profile. At some point in the instrument the profile transitions tangentially from a conic or cylindrical shape to this thing.

This is a trombone site and it seems to have branched to trumpet discussion, but the cylindrical-conical-flare relationship is applicable to all brass instruments. A while back we did a carbon fiber bell for a Tuba using this equation and it seems to have worked well. We extended the conic of the branch into the lower crook then did the transition to flare about 24" from the bell opening. Visually there is a more pronounced flare. The player noted that the shape was more like early 19th century tubas he had seen than contemporary instruments that have nearly conic bells

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 am

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 6:53 pm With six sides to the cube you could snake six different lengths of tubing through it and play it by rotating the cube to the right side for each note.

If you could make do with just 5 semi-tones you could model 5 mouthpieces conveniently on one face, each one leading to a bell on one of the five remaining faces.

OK, let us know when you've finished doing that.

He's already demonstrated that one tube is doable. There is obviously room to fit more. Why is my comment ridiculed?

You'd need a fork lift to carry around the concrete tuba

The perceived cylindrical trumpet/conical cornet has been investigated. Measurements have shown that the difference isn't enough to matter as far as sound goes, especially when some cornets have more cylindrical tubing than some trumpets. So does the shape, involving the difference in the number of crooks make the difference? Well, there are cornets that sound like trumpets and vice versa, so this is also ruled out. Does the placement of the tubing in relation to the venturi, valve block, and bell affect timbre? Once again: no. So why are cornets considered to sound mellow, while trumpets are considered bright? Well, the real differences are the result of the sound goal of the manufacturer, mouthpiece choice, and the way the player forms the tone to achieve the desired timbre within the expectations of the context of the music itself.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 9:16 am

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 am

OK, let us know when you've finished doing that.

He's already demonstrated that one tube is doable. There is obviously room to fit more. Why is my comment ridiculed?

Oh, you were being serious? Did you watch the part where he makes the cube? Just the 6 "bells" alone would take up most of the real estate in that cube. And then you would fit 5 even longer passages in there in addition to the Bb length passage? I just assumed you were joking.

Robert,

Think of the volume enclosed in the interior of the trumpet tubing (including the bell).
Compare that to the total volume of the now (largely hollowed-out) concrete cube.

Do you think you could fit another trumpet volume into that same cube?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:10 am Robert,

Think of the volume enclosed in the interior of the trumpet tubing (including the bell).
Compare that to the total volume of the now (largely hollowed-out) concrete cube.

Do you think you could fit another trumpet volume into that same cube?

A full trumpet volume, probably not. However, I don't see why you couldn't tap the main tubing somewhere short of the main bell, and send it to a slightly smaller bell on a different face, for a pitch a minor third higher.

Then you could do that European police siren effect.

Well, there you go. Henry (concrete trumpet maker) and I were talking about that just yesterday. However we weren't quite clear on how the acoustic wave would react to the divergence. He may try a test before committing to concrete, a not easily altered medium. A different take on the "double bell euphonium"? I think that instrument used only one bell at a time? If it works it would be an interesting sound. I can do it with the Yahama Silent Brass, it will produce an artificial third I think that's what it is, may be a fifth) on the headset or PA for fun.

nileseh wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:04 pm Well, there you go. Henry (concrete trumpet maker) and I were talking about that just yesterday. However we weren't quite clear on how the acoustic wave would react to the divergence. He may try a test before committing to concrete, a not easily altered medium. A different take on the "double bell euphonium"? I think that instrument used only one bell at a time? If it works it would be an interesting sound. I can do it with the Yahama Silent Brass, it will produce an artificial third I think that's what it is, may be a fifth) on the headset or PA for fun.

The double bell euphs needed a valve...

I'm now considering what it would take to make JUST the bell and have it mate to some existing valves rather than a molded in mouthpiece. Might be easier with a Flugel horn shape and do everything after the valves in a block of concrete. A trombone bell would be fun, but might have to make it backpack mounted...

CHeers,
Andy

Yes. Like the euphonium, you might have to do one bell at a time - easy to do if the faces are next to each other, just close off one bell with your hand and a piece of cardboard.

There is a trumpet with something like 15 bells that play all the time, but I think they have reeds.

You're possibly thinking of the martinstrompete. They are a free-reed and not a brass instrument, but the bells do not play all the time - you select a single bell/reed combination with piston valves or similar mechanisms.

Perhaps by utilizing a stucco sprayer a light weight horn could be built up.