techniques to improve your sound?

[Jose999]

Hi, My teacher is really fan of two diferents techniques: flurato and bending (false note) according to him this techniques can "improve you sound" and help in increase your register.
Does anyone do thes? What do you think about working on these type of exercises? Thanks.

[Elow]

I played false tone scales daily for my low range and i think it helped open up my sound. Still not happy with it, but i actually sound like a bass trombone now

[harrisonreed]

My technique is:

1. Stop free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Today. Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either. Why use tricks to try and open up your sound, when you just have to unlearn the habit that trick creates to play with a pure sound?
2. Start working on easy lip slurs. These are the most important thing, especially in the low register. Learn to play with a good sound with the rest of the horn attached to the mouthpiece.
3. Learn to tune your oral cavity to the register you're playing in, eventually you can tune it for each pitch to get the purest sound.

[Savio]

I can't say I actually know how to practice to improve sound, but one important aspect is to listen good players. Make a picture of what a good sound is. I also believe in playing melodies. Try to make the trombone sing. What technical aspects we need can be different for each one of us?

Leif

[Burgerbob]

My technique is:

1. Stop free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. Today. Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either. Why use tricks to try and open up your sound, when you just have to unlearn the habit that trick creates to play with a pure sound?

I'd have to disagree there, I had hit a total wall in my playing development until I learned how to freebuzz and how it related to the instrument.

[ithinknot]

Bends and false tones are pretty much the same thing as buzzing, so those don't help either.

...

3. Learn to tune your oral cavity to the register you're playing in, eventually you can tune it for each pitch to get the purest sound.

I'm not going to get into the buzzing debate, but I'm pretty sure false tones etc are much more closely related to your point [3] than you suggest. The impedance of the instrument is there, so it's hardly analagous to freebuzzing. Flattening pedals is probably 'too easy' (or achievable through too many different means unrelated to oral resonance), but persuading the instrument to nail 2nd partial false tones (or bends elsewhere) surely relies on one's command of [3].

[Pre59]

Going "old school" here, but playing long tones in the register that you wish to improve used to be a thing. Works for me.

[Jose999]

I appreciated all the replys but I think the question has deviated in ways of improving the sound, I would like to delve into the bending and flurato techniques, exeperiences and thougts working on this techniques, if you think are useless or not or whatever. Thanks!

[Kdanielsen]

Listen to as much live and recorded trombone music as you can, especially players that inspire you. Listen to Joe (or whoever), then play, within a few seconds. Notice.

Listen listen listen.

[Doug Elliott]

Bending - depends on how you do it. The effectiveness of anything depends on how you do it.
I have never heard the term flurato but I think it's flutter tongue. I have heard of players doing that for sound but I haven't.

As an alternate technique to develop sound, I will also throw in multiphonics.

[harrisonreed]

I appreciated all the replys but I think the question has deviated in ways of improving the sound, I would like to delve into the bending and flurato techniques, exeperiences and thougts working on this techniques, if you think are useless or not or whatever. Thanks!

Sure, specific thoughts on bending notes ( I see false tones as the same thing):

Bending notes trains you to play the trombone like it is a megaphone for your lips buzzing. The goal for a pure sound is to get the length of tube that is the trombone vibrating perfectly with what that length of tubing needs to vibrate at. Trying to bend the tone with your chops without changing the tube length is an ultimately fruitless endeavor, because the further you bend, the less the sound is being made by the air in the trombone vibrating, and the more it is being made by your lips buzzing in the mouthpiece. Perhaps it teaches you how to make the trombone sound worse, so you can know what direction that lies in and avoid it.

The best teachers I've had taught to blow straight where you felt the horn want slot, and keep it right there. If it's not immediately in tune, adjust with the slide. Adjusting/worsening intonation with bends (on purpose) doesn't train you to blow right in the middle of the slot, and it doesn't train you to tune (intonation is highly related to "tone") better with your slide hand. It is not practicing playing where the horn sounds great, but is instead practicing a sort of gross sound. Imagine getting good enough at it where you can play "in tune" without adjusting much with the slide at all, and using your face for everything -- like intermediate players do! They don't know how to blow in the slot and use imprecise positions, and adjust everything with their face. That's why they sound like amateurs.

There are some that say it will build strength in your face -- these muscles are not supposed to be strong muscles. Brass playing is about minute changes to tiny muscles, repeatability, and letting the horn do the work for you. Bending notes is about the opposite of that -- large changes to tiny muscle groups, "how far can I go??", and fighting the horn the whole way.

Why would you waste time on that?

Just saw Doug's comment on multiphonics! Yes! Especially in the trigger range.

[baileyman]

If I had to do it all over again I would focus entirely on getting the full range to sound without effort. After that, working on great sound would be a breeze.

I say this because it seems there are many ways to play a note "with great sound" that may not work elsewhere on the horn. It seems there are "great sound" dead ends, and I think I've gone down a few.

[Basbasun]

Yes flurato is another name for flutter tongue. But maybe you mean buzzing?
Actually "flurato" can be used, buzzing can be used, false tones (lipbending) can be used. Those thing can be good.
And bad if you aren´t doing them right.

Listen to good players, Joe Alessin is mentioned ( a fan of buzzing) and Bill Watrous ( a fan of buzzing and false tones) there are many good players. If your teacher sounds good, his advises may be good.

The false tones (Bill Watrous did call them half overtoneseries) are existing resonances in the horn, if you find them they feel secure and steady. many trombonists use them, for practice and peformances.

To say this a good or this is bad is impossible. It all dependes how it is done. I hear lots of players doing this thing very good, then it is probably good for their sound, others do the stuff with a bad sound, the it is probably not doing any good so far, but can maybe better. Lip bending can mean lots of things, the false tones are not really lip bending.

[Kbiggs]

For me, there’s a slight difference between false tones—sometimes called factitious, fictional, false pedals, Watrous’s half overtones, etc.—and tone bending. The factitious tones lie about a major third below the 1st overtone (low B-flat). If you play in 1st position, you can lip down to get a G-flat, play in 2nd position and lip down to F, etc.

“Tone bending” is also useful, where you bend the tone down from B-flat to an A, then A-flat, etc. Marstellar advocated that, as have many other players and teachers. I suppose you could say that the factitious tones are an extension of tone bending.

I think both factitious tones and tone bending can be helpful to develop a more resonant, full, focused sound. Playing around with these tones can help to find the most resonant place in the embouchure and tongue placement, if done correctly.

I have heard about flutter-tongue to help with relaxation, but not tone development. I tried it for a little while and didn’t seen any benefits. FWIW, I’ve known people who aren’t able to flutter tongue but had a gorgeous sound. The exception that proves the rule, I suppose.

[VJOFan]

It's taken me forever to understand what any "exercise" is really about.

Before doing any exercise (lip slurs, push ups, stretches, long tones, bench press, major scale patterns) know the performance or functional improvement you expect to see from it.

Then look at what the exercise makes you do, and at what your ultimate goal is.

It should be possible to decide if a particular exercise will train your body or mind in a way that shapes you toward a better version of your target performance. Analyze what it takes to do the thing you want to do and look at how the exercise can or cannot help you get there.

In this case, tone comes from an efficient buzz, fueled by an appropriate air stream, being amplified or resonated (my vocabulary fails here) -enhanced or shaped by/in the cavities of your horn and body. Does your exercise help you discover, control or improve the function of any of this?

[WilliamLang]

i find that flutter tongueing and bending can help on occasion when i'm not finding the "center" or core of the sound. it can be a useful diagnostic after tuning to make sure that the lips are centered sound wise.

personally i find that i use this about 2-3x a year when chops aren't feeling particularly good, and i want to eliminate some reasons why.

hope that helps!

[Savio]

There is no shortcut. There is no tricks either. Listen is the first thing. Then practice to get the sound you love. Without an aim you shoot in the blind..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_XlYnldXYE

This is maybe the most wonderful trombone sound there is......

Leif

[robcat2075]

... according to him this techniques can "improve you sound" and help in increase your register.

This sounds about as good as the claims made for wrinkle creams in late-night infomercials.

Did he offer any time frame for when improvements would appear?

"Eventually"?

How much fluratulence did he say you have to do?

You're obviously not going to sound better while you are doing these things so... how long afterward is the improvement supposed to happen?

[WilliamLang]

these are not tricks or shortcuts - they can be good diagnostic tools for some people when used in moderation.

[Basbasun]

I do think that the OP:s teacher teach lots of other things like the usual long tones flexibilitys scales and more. I don't think the flurato, bend tones, false tones are the only stuff the teacher suggest.
We don´t know.

[timothy42b]

Listen to good players, Joe Alessin is mentioned ( a fan of buzzing)

The false tones (Bill Watrous did call them half overtoneseries) are existing resonances in the horn, if you find them they feel secure and steady. many trombonists use them, for practice and peformances.

I was a few feet away from Joe Alessi at an ATW some years back. It was my impression that he plays in the center of the slot with a precision few people match, but maybe that's a key to his sound, and something to emulate.

Same with false tones except the slot is a lot harder to hear or feel.

Something I've noticed in my own playing: sometimes a recording sounds like good tone when my ear didn't think so. If we're trying to produce a sound but haven't calibrated our ears to hear it, might go down the wrong path.

[baileyman]

...

Something I've noticed in my own playing: sometimes a recording sounds like good tone when my ear didn't think so. If we're trying to produce a sound but haven't calibrated our ears to hear it, might go down the wrong path.

Interesting point. Lately my buzz has been getting so loud in my head it's really hard for me to judge the "sound" very well. Rather, I can judge where I am in the slot, whether there is any junk in the buzz, whether there is any undue effort or unfamiliar muscle feel. But with that "WAAAANHNHNHN" going on in my head I just cannot hear the horn very well. But I have been told surprisingly complementary things about it nonetheless. I say, "I'm happy to hear that because I cannot hear it myself!"

[Wilktone]

Hi, My teacher is really fan of two diferents techniques: flurato and bending (false note) according to him this techniques can "improve you sound" and help in increase your register.
Does anyone do thes? What do you think about working on these type of exercises? Thanks.

Bending - depends on how you do it. The effectiveness of anything depends on how you do it.

Doug gave me a routine to work on by Donald Reinhardt called the "Elasticity Routine." The gist is to play gliss between notes as smoothly as possible without backing off on the air, mouthpiece pressure, etc. Rather than thinking of this as "bending" the note I think of this as playing between the partials. You're not just bending the notes down, but also pushing them up.



Dave

[baileyman]

What is different about this than being able to freebuzz the same exercise?

[Doug Elliott]

What's different? It's not the same thing at all. It's relatively easy to freebuzz Bb, B, C, C#, D. Now try the same thing in 1st position.

[baileyman]

Sure I get that. It's the buzz influenced by the feedback of the horn resonance. So what do you expect to learn by the centering effect of the partial?

[Wilktone]

What is different about this than being able to freebuzz the same exercise?

With the Elasticity Routine you're not free buzzing with the mouthpiece barely contacting your lips, you're keeping the mouthpiece pressure up and forcing the instrument to play between the partials.

So what do you expect to learn by the centering effect of the partial?

In part, it develops embouchure control, but it also makes you coordinate the tongue arch and air support to get the force the notes between the partials. Regarding developing tone, you are training the entire system (embouchure, air, tongue) to go where it needs to be to play a particular note, regardless of whether the slide is in the right spot. When you are in the correct position/fingering then everything is lined up and tone should be improved.

Dave

[baileyman]

It's sorta interesting. The buzz can do the pitch that the horn cannot. From the D it's fairly easy to get the C# buzz to sound like an okay horn C# (which I do frequently as what I think of as "semitone valve"). C basically does not sound and I'm not quite sure about B, but if you're buzzing the right pitch you can pull off on C# and B and find if indeed you are on that pitch or not.

If done as written (if I read between the lines of the missing commentary) one plays a centered Bb then while leaving the horn in Bb moves the buzz to the B etc. I suppose one who cannot freebuzz can do this to their satisfaction, but the feedback from the horn resonance makes it seem at least possible that the resulting buzz pitch may not in fact be on B even though the player thinks the overall system pitch out the bell in basically B. The freebuzzer could pull off and verify.

If on the other hand one freebuzzes the B, then adds the horn, then horn seems to cancel the buzz pitch, even if it feels like the thing is still going on the same pitch. One can then pull off to freebuzz and verify what is in fact happening.

[Doug Elliott]

It's not like freebuzzing at all and I don't think I would be able to "pull it off" and keep the pitch. And it's not like bending the pitch down. This exercise is just as much about bending the pitch up. Forcing pitches through the horn that it doesn't want to produce.

I don't expect most players to understand the value or why you would even want to do it.

[FOSSIL]

Savio is on the money. None of this stuff, laudable though some of it is, is a means to 'improve' your tone quality. Tone is subjective.....very subjective. You change by listening to players you admire and practising until you develop your sound in the direction you want. Some get where they want, many don't. Ears and practise time.

Chris

[Bach5G]

Thanks for the link Leif. It’s always good to hear a bit of Bill W on a ballad.

I wonder whether we have our own sound and it’s a matter of discovering it? As much as I might want sound like Geo Roberts or Charles Vernon (or even C Stearn), I will always sound like myself and what I have to aim for is the best possible version of myself.

[Wilktone]

I was a little hesitant to post the exercise because I was afraid some people might not understand how to practice it without getting a demonstration and corrections after trying it out. Even after Doug showed it to me the first time I recall backing off and Doug had to call me out on it and get me to push and blow harder.

Not to diminish the importance of listening and imagining the sound, but I wish it was Harold Hill easy like that. Anything that you can do to train getting your embouchure, tongue, and air lined up correctly for a specific note and dynamic is useful. You can practice it unconsciously (and eventually you want it to be), but a little "focused" practice is also helpful.

[FOSSIL]

Thanks for the link Leif. It’s always good to hear a bit of Bill W on a ballad.

I wonder whether we have our own sound and it’s a matter of discovering it? As much as I might want sound like Geo Roberts or Charles Vernon (or even C Stearn), I will always sound like myself and what I have to aim for is the best possible version of myself.

If you like the sound you make, great !! If you admire someone else's sound more, flood your brain with that sound until theirs becomes yours...or a version of it.
Making music solves a lot of problems.

Chris

[FOSSIL]

I was a little hesitant to post the exercise because I was afraid some people might not understand how to practice it without getting a demonstration and corrections after trying it out. Even after Doug showed it to me the first time I recall backing off and Doug had to call me out on it and get me to push and blow harder.

Not to diminish the importance of listening and imagining the sound, but I wish it was Harold Hill easy like that. Anything that you can do to train getting your embouchure, tongue, and air lined up correctly for a specific note and dynamic is useful. You can practice it unconsciously (and eventually you want it to be), but a little "focused" practice is also helpful.

Never heard the term 'Harold Hill easy' .Quaint . I used to live near a place of that name.
It can be easy....depends on your mindset to a large extent.

Chris

[BGuttman]

Harold Hill was a character in "The Music Man". He was the male lead. He was a charlatan salesman who sold musical instruments to small towns to form a band and skipped town just before the stuff arrived so he didn't have to actually teach the kids. He advocated something called the "Think System", where you just imagined playing and it should come out that way.

I saw the town of Harold Hill and briefly considered naming my Brass Quintet after it -- most of the good English names were already taken (Nottingham, Stratford, Essex, etc.) I think for our quality of performance Lower Dibley would have been a better choice, though

[jthomas105]

Harold Hill, the main character in the "Music Man" musical/movie that went to towns and sold band instruments to start a band and then told the kids to learn to play with the "think method" because he was basically a scam man that sold anything and didn't know anything about what he sold.

Bruce beat me to it.

[FOSSIL]

How nice....I didn't realise Dave was trying to trash my comments.... different worlds in so many ways.

Chris

[Wilktone]

Sorry, Chris. I just happen to reject the idea that it's as simple as *always* imagining the sound and letting it come out. Again, not to diminish the importance of doing things that way sometimes. If you teach at a conservatory that only accepts people into the program that already have it figured out then that's maybe all you need to do.

[Bach5G]

The movie starred a young Shirley Jones as Marian the Librarian.

And also, “pool* starts with “P”, rhymes with “T” and stands for “trouble”. Here in River City.”

Back to regular programming.

* billiards lads

[PaulTdot]

Some other things I've found can greatly improve control and sound:

* Controlled breath attacks - none of that "fffffffwah!" thing I hear people doing, but teach your chops to produce a sound as soon as you blow air. (It can sound almost indistinguishable for a tongued attack after you've practiced it a lot.)

* Lots of sustained legato.

* Optimizing the way you line up the whole physical apparatus - tongue, teeth, lips, mouthpiece, horn. There is a place where any given note is going to sound best; play it there, rather than trying to fight it.

* Realizing what "your" unique sound is, and working with that, rather than trying to sound like someone else.

In addition, I wonder whether playing really loud changes your tone quality. I've noticed that my chops respond quite differently after sustained loud playing, and some of the effects are very positive (as long as I'm playing correctly). It almost feels like some kind of physical change (I suppose it could be as simple as swelling or damage).

I'm not sure, though, how it operates or whether to recommend it.

[BGuttman]

Having a concept of the sound you want to hear and trying things until you get that sound is a way to improve. Unless you decide that whatever sound you manage to make is what you want; especially if the sound is one that is not "marketable".

A Teacher can usually tell you if your sound is not acceptable. A good teacher can help you find a sound that is "you" and is also acceptable. It may involve teaching some methods to be able to create the sound.

It's not the "think system", more the "find a sound you like and figure out how to make it" system.

[FOSSIL]

Sorry, Chris. I just happen to reject the idea that it's as simple as *always* imagining the sound and letting it come out. Again, not to diminish the importance of doing things that way sometimes. If you teach at a conservatory that only accepts people into the program that already have it figured out then that's maybe all you need to do.

Did I say always ? You did.
Do I only teach people that come physically sorted ?
Far from it.
Think system....very humorous....

Chris

[Wilktone]

Did I say always ? You did.
Do I only teach people that come physically sorted ?
Far from it.
Think system....very humorous....

Chris, I'm sure if we were sitting down over a beverage "chewing the fat" we'd be agreeing with each other. I apologize if I've offended you.

Some of my reaction to your advice in this thread is due to past conversations we've had, but your pedagogical advice tends to discourage the details of how we play in favor of an approach that favors imagining the sound and letting the body figure itself out. I wish it was that easy for most of us.

What I'm advocating for, and I suspect in practice you do as well, is an approach that uses the correct pedagogical tool for the job.

Do you have some suggestions for developing tone that aren't simply about hearing the sound you want?

[harrisonreed]

Sorry, Chris. I just happen to reject the idea that it's as simple as *always* imagining the sound and letting it come out. Again, not to diminish the importance of doing things that way sometimes. If you teach at a conservatory that only accepts people into the program that already have it figured out then that's maybe all you need to do.

Selling embouchure advice to someone with horse teeth and bad ears would be as Harold Hill as it gets. On the other hand, improving one's ear and internal voice is always sound advice.

I don't know anything about where or how Chris teaches, but being selective about who they teach is the wisest thing a conservatory can do. Sew seed on fertile ground. On the flip side you've got people who've spent ten years in school for music in traditional colleges, with a DMA and gobs of knowledge, but still no potential for performing or demonstrating music as a teacher. They are more common than they should be and I keep meeting them along my musical journey, hiding behind marimbas or classical sax music.

[Posaunus]

The "Think System"









Meredith Willson - "The Music Man"

[Wilktone]

FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.

http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html

[harrisonreed]

FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.

http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html

If one is hung up on technique and mechanics, of course Arnold Jacobs seems like he is teaching the think system.

But he is thinking like how the Suzuki method thinks -- a large part of any endeavor is being able to visualize or hear it in your head. The best athletes visualize their sport thousands of times, even when they are not actively practicing it. No doubt Christian Lindberg heard his own sound even in his dreams.

You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.

[Wilktone]

You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.

Yes! It's not all or nothing and there are merits to both.

[FOSSIL]

FYI, here is a very un-ironic reference about the approach I find to be less than helpful for most of us.

http://www.rogerrocco.net/2010/04/think-system.html

If one is hung up on technique and mechanics, of course Arnold Jacobs seems like he is teaching the think system.

But he is thinking like how the Suzuki method thinks -- a large part of any endeavor is being able to visualize or hear it in your head. The best athletes visualize their sport thousands of times, even when they are not actively practicing it. No doubt Christian Lindberg heard his own sound even in his dreams.

You need both. You need to understand the mechanics, but what you hear as your voice and what you strive for internally is equally important.

That's nice Harrison. There are no opposing systems. I just teach my students what I have found to work over many years...and that's different for every person who walks in the door. You teach each person what they need, not some kind of catch all. Anyway, I'm near the end of playing and teaching, so I don't really care for competitions and opposing camps.
It's all about music in the end...and how best to make it.

Chris

[Wilktone]

Thank you for clarifying, Chris. But I'm genuinely interested, what do you advise your students to work on for tone that goes beyond listening to the tone you want and striving to imitate it through unconscious trial and error?