TromboneChat

hello loves, I'm a high school trombone player and basically I'm looking for a deep mouthpiece but also small rim, like a French horn mouthpiece but larger; small bore

I've tried out a few high brass mouthpieces  but I hate trumpet mouthpieces, way to shallow but I tried this French / mellophone hybrid and it was really nice for a high brass mouthpiece, so I'm looking for a large mimic of that type

What kind of instrument are you looking to play it on?

There are a number of mouthpieces that are narrow and deep.  Look for the word "Helleberg".  He was a tuba player about 100 years ago and developed a family of narrow and deep tuba mouthpieces.  Someone (can't remember who off the top of my head) made one for trombone.

Schilke 51D with small shank. Deep cup, medium rim very dark sound. Works fine on small shank euphoniums, sounds kinda dull on small bore trombones.

Quote from: modelerdc on Nov 03, 2017, 04:10PMSchilke 51D with small shank. Deep cup, medium rim very dark sound. Works fine on small shank euphoniums, sounds kinda dull on small bore trombones.

Schilke 51D isn't really narrow by any reasonable standard. It's larger than a 5G. I'm not saying it's huge, but...narrow?




Yamaha Alain Trudel would fit the OP's description. Diameter of a 48 (somewhere between a 6½ and a 6¾), but extra deep V-shaped cup with tapered throat.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Nov 03, 2017, 04:36PMSchilke 51D isn't really narrow by any reasonable standard. It's larger than a 5G. I'm not saying it's huge, but...narrow?




Yamaha Alain Trudel would fit the OP's description. Diameter of a 48 (somewhere between a 6½ and a 6¾), but extra deep V-shaped cup with tapered throat.

51D rim is actually smaller than 5G, more 6.5AL size. Smaller than stock Schilke 51 too.

Check out the JK m/p's. They all have universal spec's, and so an A cup is the same depth no matter how wide the m/p is, and as far as I can tell, the rims are also universal. It's only the throat that increases with a wider piece.

So you should be able to get a narrow(er) m/p with a very deep cup. I'm using a 8E, but because they're very cost effective I'll be ordering a 8D just to see whether it has any future benefits for me.

http://josefklier.de/mouthpieces/trombone/?lang=en

Quote from: Burgerbob on Nov 03, 2017, 06:24PM51D rim is actually smaller than 5G, more 6.5AL size. Smaller than stock Schilke 51 too.

Yes, 51D is slightly narrower than 51. But it's still also slightly larger than a 5G

51 is 25.63mm
51D is 25.55
Bach 5g is 25.5
Bach 6.5 is 25.4



Anyway I felt this was quite representative of the "bigger is better" mentality that is prevalent in the North American trombone world. Something that is pretty much middle of the road (and on the large side of that)  is considered small. To not be considered small, it has to be bigger than the average (which pretty much goes against the definition of average)...

Depends on how you define "middle of the road". If your starting and end points are the sizes that all tenor trombonists typically play (somewhere between 24.4mm and 26.67) then the 51 is actually just about as close to the middle of the road as you can get (certainly not on the large side, but also not on the small side).  We don't know what the OP is seeking to use this for but in general I'm not aware of any symphony players or other classical players playing on anything smaller than a 6.5AL (other than maybe Alain Trudel who has a signature piece that is a touch smaller than that I believe?). Which if you take "middle of the road" for that you do get the 51 on the small side of things as the midpoint of what people typically use is then somewhere between Doug's XT102 and XT103 (actually very close to a Wick 4AL) and the 51 is very close to the smallest size one would typically found in the wild for use in such a setting.


After all, what is considered 'middle of the road' is determined by convention and is largely arbitrary otherwise.  It just so happens that now there is a lot of information out there and some of that information is that some people do well on rims that are on the larger end of that spectrum so for some individuals 'bigger is better' but it is not categorically true of all players.

This mouthpiece is almost exactly what you are looking for - except it's a large shank.  I'm not sure if it ever came in a small shank, but even the large shank version really is quite rare.

If you actually measure some of those mouthpieces you will see the the published specs are not very close to reality.

I have made custom V shaped mouthpieces in my system, I'm making a very deep one right now for somebody.  They are interesting and very french-horn-like in sound.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Nov 04, 2017, 08:19AM...
I have made custom V shaped mouthpieces in my system, I'm making a very deep one right now for somebody.  They are interesting and very french-horn-like in sound.

Does that mean you get more wrong notes?

Can we look for a new series of "V" mouthpieces?  Might be interesting to get a sorta "2G Helleberg" bass trombone mouthpiece.

Incidentally, my Conn Remington (small shank) is also more conical than most modern mouthpieces.  But it's no French Horn mouthpiece.

New York Collection Trombone Mouthpiece K28
Inner Diameter : 9.32" or 23.673mm
Bore Size : .234" or5.947mm

These duplications of the original New York Models have proven to be among the most popular of the entire New York Collection.

This cup is very deep, especially when seen in comparison with the small size of the rest of the specifications. The rim is very rounded. This model is available only in the small shank style.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Nov 03, 2017, 04:36PMYamaha Alain Trudel would fit the OP's description. Diameter of a 48 (somewhere between a 6½ and a 6¾), but extra deep V-shaped cup with tapered throat.

According to Yamaha's official spec, Alain Trudel Model has almost the same rim diameter to the 51D (25.23mm vs 25.24mm), which, in turn, is also similar to the 48 and 48D (25.25mm). The difference is throat size and backbore: the 48s has 6.62mm throat and "semi-narrow" backbore, while 51D has 7.11mm throat and "standard" backbore. Alain Trudel Model has 7.15mm throat and "narrow" backbore. The rim profile of Alain Trudel Model is also different.

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Nov 05, 2017, 05:23PMAccording to Yamaha's official spec, Alain Trudel Model has almost the same rim diameter to the 51D (25.23mm vs 25.24mm), which, in turn, is also similar to the 48 and 48D (25.25mm). The difference is throat size and backbore: the 48s has 6.62mm throat and "semi-narrow" backbore, while 51D has 7.11mm throat and "standard" backbore. Alain Trudel Model has 7.15mm throat and "narrow" backbore. The rim profile of Alain Trudel Model is also different.

À 51D is 25.55mm, though.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Nov 06, 2017, 12:31AMÀ 51D is 25.55mm, though.

Strange. I have two versions of the catalogue (JP and US), and they all list the diameter as 25.23-25.24. But there is a jump, from 25.23-25.24 of 51/51D to 25.65 of 52L.

Could this be a typo? But the same typo on two sources?

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Nov 06, 2017, 01:30AMStrange. I have two versions of the catalogue (JP and US), and they all list the diameter as 25.23-25.24. But there is a jump, from 25.23-25.24 of 51/51D to 25.65 of 52L.

Could this be a typo? But the same typo on two sources?

The current catalog says 25.55.

It must be a typo in your source, no way a 51D is smaller than a 6.5

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Nov 06, 2017, 01:58AMThe current catalog says 25.55.

It must be a typo in your source, no way a 51D is smaller than a 6.5

I think so too. I have long been wondered why a 51 is at the same size with 48.

But their US catalogue still listed it like this. They have some serious correction to do...

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/brochure/4/890474/2017_Wind_us_DB.pdf

Quote from: BGuttman on Nov 04, 2017, 08:24AMCan we look for a new series of "V" mouthpieces?  Might be interesting to get a sorta "2G Helleberg" bass trombone mouthpiece.

Incidentally, my Conn Remington (small shank) is also more conical than most modern mouthpieces.  But it's no French Horn mouthpiece.

Right - maybe as a general rule old Conn mouthpieces are more conical, so the 3B could be a Helleberg bass trombone mouthpiece.  But from what little I've seen, they aren't especially deep, nor is the rim anything like a French horn mouthpiece.

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Nov 06, 2017, 02:01AMI think so too. I have long been wondered why a 51 is at the same size with 48.

But their US catalogue still listed it like this. They have some serious correction to do...

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/brochure/4/890474/2017_Wind_us_DB.pdf

Ah you meant the Yamaha 51D. I meant the Schilke. But I'd assume the Yamaha is around the same size.

Yam likely a little smaller than Schilke.

This thread reminds me of a friend's story about he and another trumpet player trying out mouthpieces at the Marcinkiewicz factory in Oregon while the girlfriends very patiently waited in the car. It took much longer than expected.

Afterwards, they stopped, bought some Cokes, and Al asked the girlfriend if she wanted a straw. "I can't decide whether I want the .051 or .052 straw". she said. And Al realized that he was in more trouble than he knew.

Almost all other Yamaha rim match Schilke's, and there is a jump from 25.24 of 51 to 25.65 of 52, so I think assuming typo by Yamaha's side and that Yamaha's 51 is around the same size as Schilke's 51 maybe correct.

Anyway Yamaha has 48D, small rim, "semi-"deep cup. Or just Alain Trudel. But the latter is almost 2 times more expensive.

You should see if you can find (either here or ebay) an older Jettone Studio D model.
12/11/-ish rim size but very deep V cup
On my Large bore horn I use a Doug Elliott 98 rim (around the size of a Bach 7) and an F cup and Backbore (Bach 5-ish)
I need a 7-sh rim and Doug was the only modern mouthpiece maker that allowed me to have this set-up . You could come up with your own odd set=up with Doug or , seriouslt , look for the Jet tone Studio D, because that sounds exactly what you are looking for

You should see if you can find (either here or ebay) an older Jettone Studio D model.
12/11/-ish rim size but very deep V cup
On my Large bore horn I use a Doug Elliott 98 rim (around the size of a Bach 7) and an F cup and Backbore (Bach 5-ish)
I need a 7-sh rim and Doug was the only modern mouthpiece maker that allowed me to have this set-up . You could come up with your own odd set=up with Doug or , seriouslt , look for the Jet tone Studio D, because that sounds exactly what you are looking for