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How do you get the lower valve registar to speak clearly and not muffled and uncentered?

Buzzing in leadpipe helped me, also glisses

Something I learned from tuba players is "half-valving": you play, say a low Bb, then very slowly rotate the valve until it's only about halfway open, hold that "muffled" C for a few seconds or beats, then slowly continue turning the valve until it's fully engaged, then hold that note. Try it in reverse too. YMMV.

Make sure you are using proper positions for the valve. They are NOT the same as on the open instrument. If you are playing the valve notes in the same location as open notes, you are probably lipping the notes in tune with terrible tonal quality. Remember, there are only 6 positions on the slide using the valve, and the 6th position is with the slide almost falling off the stockings.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:48 pm Make sure you are using proper positions for the valve. They are NOT the same as on the open instrument. If you are playing the valve notes in the same location as open notes, you are probably lipping the notes in tune with terrible tonal quality. Remember, there are only 6 positions on the slide using the valve, and the 6th position is with the slide almost falling off the stockings.

I know the positions. This isn't the problem.

Just trying to make sure the bases are covered. Please don't take offense.

Next item: is your valve leaky? Put some oil on it through the slide receiver. Get it good and wet. See if the valve register opens up. If that helps, you may need to have a tech look the thing over. Also, make sure your valve ports line up with the holes in the casing. And don't trust the Witness Marks. Somebody may have been monkeying with the valve in the past.

Making sure youre playing in the perfect position is very important. If youre off just a little you cant center the note

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:01 pm Just trying to make sure the bases are covered. Please don't take offense.

Next item: is your valve leaky? Put some oil on it through the slide receiver. Get it good and wet. See if the valve register opens up. If that helps, you may need to have a tech look the thing over. Also, make sure your valve ports line up with the holes in the casing. And don't trust the Witness Marks. Somebody may have been monkeying with the valve in the past.

How do you check the alignment without the witness marks? I oil the valce regularly and the truth is, the upper valve registar sounds fine. I suspect it's more of an issue with my playing then equipment

1. have a good sound concept- listen to some good tenor players in the valve register
2. the lower you go, the slower the air. If you airball everything, it's probably too fast
3. I assume you're talking about the range between E and pedal Bb. This is all the 2nd partial, starting at low Bb- it shouldn't feel radically different to that.

JCBone wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:14 pm How do you check the alignment without the witness marks? I oil the valce regularly and the truth is, the upper valve registar sounds fine. I suspect it's more of an issue with my playing then equipment

Looking through the slide receiver. A torch may help. Moving the valve, you're looking for uneven rotor port edges showing at either of the stopping points.

But, yes, if the upper valve register is behaving, it's more likely to be you! Others can offer better advice, but beyond the obvious - long notes and false tone practice - really think about speed and shape of air. Try to have a mental/visual model of your airflow. This may not exactly correspond to physics/embouchure reality, but use it to consciously work through various options of air volume, focus and speed to work out what works, and then to remember which options worked best.

JCBone wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:55 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:48 pm Make sure you are using proper positions for the valve. They are NOT the same as on the open instrument. If you are playing the valve notes in the same location as open notes, you are probably lipping the notes in tune with terrible tonal quality. Remember, there are only 6 positions on the slide using the valve, and the 6th position is with the slide almost falling off the stockings.

I know the positions. This isn't the problem.

To turn the tables on you, I don't think it's possible to know where to put the slide to get the valve register notes to really center if you can't center anything in the valve register to begin with. Bruce may have hit on something, and arbitrary positions are never in tune. The "positions" may very well be working against you.

If you're a downstream player, moving your jaw slightly forward from where it usually is and blowing closer to the mouthpiece throat should open this register up.

I always find that slurring exercises help me get my valve register in shape. Good 2 and 3 note slurs starting from the 2nd and 3rd harmonic (on the open horn, engaging the valve as needed, or all on the valve). Blow towards the valve note, unless if you're continuing into pedals, then make that the destination. Works for me. I always find it difficult to connect pedals/valve notes - lucky I'm a tenor player! Still, slurring helps this too.

Jim Scott

JCBone wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:59 am How do you get the lower valve registar to speak clearly and not muffled and uncentered?

First things first... how long have you been working on them?

I have found that air is usually the culprit for a valve register that players don't like. Here are things I think about.

For now don't worry about volume, worry about the quality of the sound that you are creating, and focus on the air being neutral. By this I mean don't push the air, and don't hold the air back. If you sigh out and say Ahhhhhhh, that is how the air should feel. Playing low should feel like relaxing.

Let the embouchure figure out how to work with that air. Don't manipulate the embouchure, it should be the same as the rest of your playing in the low non valve register if at all possible. Also, the air needs to be warm, and sticky. Think about fogging a mirror with how warm, wet and sticky the air should be. Low notes in a large volume of air, not fast air, so think of a fire hose vs. a garden hose.

Volume will come as the embouchure gets use to this kind of air flow. Keep working on it, it may take a few days if you are super lucky, but more likely it will take a year or more to really get where you want to. It may be something you have to work on for quite awhile. Personally for me it took almost two years of daily practice and scales to get the sound I really wanted. I still to this day also focus on my sound and it is always very beneficial.

One old method is to have the F valve in use for both octaves playing F 3 - F 2, dont move the slide (there maybe som minor adjustments but do not do that now, let it slot first) the E3 -E2 Eb 3 - Eb 2 D3 -D2 Db3 - Db2. (You have no C on the F valve.) (the nombers is for the octaves). Maybe that will help. Another method is to buzz. Mnany of my former student buzzed in the mouthpiece to at least pedal Bb, I do buzz to pedal F Sam Burtis down to double pedal range, (yes that is possible) some clame that there is a risk for doing it in a wrong way, well there is allway a risk of doing things in a wrong way, like any kind of buzzing can be done in many ways. Try to play in the mouthpiece all the tones down to C2. If you find it good keep it. If you don´t think it helps, don´t do it.

For me the problem is none of the above.

It is understanding how my motion affects the low range.

When I do it wrong, my low range (including in the staff) sounds like you describe, and feesl like pouring water from a pail into a soda bottle. Most of it spills and pouring faster doesn't help.

It's not something I was able to figure out on my own, nor something that was helped by practicing more.

Without watching you play the trombone, it will be difficult to see what you’re doing right and what you’re not doing right. There are several people who teach via Skype here on TF; Doug Elliott is one of them. A lot of people (myself included) have benefitted from just one or two lessons with Doug.

Tim is referring to the Pivot, which most players totally misunderstand and even do it backwards. This is part of the stuff that I teach, on an individual basis because everybody's facial structure is different.


And yes, I give lessons by Skype. Often one is enough to get you on the right track.

The factiious notes helps (if you can do them). If you can make them work then they can help improve your sound. As everything else they can be worked at with no positive effect too if you do not place the slide exactly at the right spot, or if you develop a totally different emboushure to get them. You should use the same emboushure for factitious notes as the normal notes. They helped me to get a clear sound.

/Tom

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:18 am Tim is referring to the Pivot, which most players totally misunderstand and even do it backwards. This is part of the stuff that I teach, on an individual basis because everybody's facial structure is different.


And yes, I give lessons by Skype. Often one is enough to get you on the right track.

Yes, exactly, and I could not figure it out on my own. With a little help from Doug it now makes sense and I've made a lot of progress, at least with that particular problem.

Coincidentally I happened to catch a Skype lesson with Doug last month and we happened to spend some time working on my trigger range. For the record, I rarely perform on my trigger horn these days, so I hadn't been spending a lot of time on it. Doug's suggestions (and spending some time working on them since) has done a lot to help me open up that register.

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, however, is that one reason the trigger range might be sounding muffled or uncentered is simply that the trigger has more tubing and more bends. Depending on the quality of your valve, it just might be harder to play with it down. That issue will be magnified if you're playing in a more extreme range and even more so if you're playing wrong for your natural tendencies.

You might try practicing some things with the trigger up in your middle range some. Play scales, arpeggios, or exercises using Bb ( b ) in "8th" position, the A below that in 9th, etc. If having the slide in the precise position is an issue you can try playing these notes in their "standard" position first and go back and forth to tune them. Practice blowing through the trigger in this range may help you get comfortable with the feeling and help when you are playing between low E and pedal Bb.

Dave

Here is a more complet version of my earlie post. This is F3 this is F2 8va basso.
This is F3 open, this this is V F3 the same F with trigger. Play the following in quarter notes, make the tones sound the same: F3 - VF3, F3- VF3 , VF3- VF2, VF3- Vf2, follow the same methis in E Eb D and Db,(The numbers are not slide positionsit is the octaves.)
Next play legato slurs, all tones with the trigger, F3 F2 F3 F2, E3 E2 E3 E2, Eb3 Eb2 Eb3 Eb2, D3 D2 D3 D2, Db3 Db2 Db3 Db2. The slide is past sixth position on the Db right? Also play F3 F2 both on the sixth position.
If sound much different from the tone with trigger there is something wrong with your gear. If the VF2 sound and feel much different from VF3 it is you doing something that is not right, The VF2 should feel and sound (almost) the same as the same tone on the sixth position- The same tube lenght, the valve it self should not be a problem. Your problem could be that you arenot used to play in that range. If you are used to play in the mouthpiece, play in that range in the mouthpiece. (Yes I know that some say you should not buzz in the low range, some say you should not buzz in the mpc at all other you should not buzz at all) Lots of good trombonists play in the mouthpiece all their range.

I used to have a stuffy valve register, and it turns out that this is right where I have a natural embouchure shift in the low range. It took a lesson from Doug to figure out how I can get it under control.

One of the problems here is that there are ways to make those notes speak that might be wrong. So some of the exercises that might work very well if done correctly could be counterproductive if done another way. I think, anyway.

I could make a video maybe of how it affects me, but every mouth is different and it might not help. Also I'm more of a typical community band amateur. So don't take anything i say for gospel. (maybe i should stop defining myself that way now that community bands no longer exist!)

For me, I need mouthpiece motion upwards and left (relative to my face) to ascend in range, and the opposite to descend. The mouthpiece does not slide on my lips; it remains on my preferred set point, but it pulls up or down. The lips either slide on the teeth or they stretch, I'm not really sure. If I fight that and keep it stationary, I get exactly the results the OP describes in the low register - notes that won't speak. When I make that motion correctly for my chops, the notes speak as well as they're going to at my skill level. It seems to me that having that amount of motion exactly correct is more critical down low, but that may be because I don't spend a lot of time down there.

I mentioned I think there are some wrong ways. Now, this is just me thinking out loud. But there are two ways I can make those notes speak without doing my motion/pivot. One is to pull the mouthpiece off my face and reset it lower. The other is to drop my jaw. I try hard not to do either, but if you were just doing exercises and not paying attention you might be doing one of those, and I think they're probably both wrong.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:17 am One of the problems here is that there are ways to make those notes speak that might be wrong. So some of the exercises that might work very well if done correctly could be counterproductive if done another way. I think, anyway.

I could make a video maybe of how it affects me, but every mouth is different and it might not help. Also I'm more of a typical community band amateur. So don't take anything i say for gospel. (maybe i should stop defining myself that way now that community bands no longer exist!)

For me, I need mouthpiece motion upwards and left (relative to my face) to ascend in range, and the opposite to descend. The mouthpiece does not slide on my lips; it remains on my preferred set point, but it pulls up or down. The lips either slide on the teeth or they stretch, I'm not really sure. If I fight that and keep it stationary, I get exactly the results the OP describes in the low register - notes that won't speak. When I make that motion correctly for my chops, the notes speak as well as they're going to at my skill level. It seems to me that having that amount of motion exactly correct is more critical down low, but that may be because I don't spend a lot of time down there.

I mentioned I think there are some wrong ways. Now, this is just me thinking out loud. But there are two ways I can make those notes speak without doing my motion/pivot. One is to pull the mouthpiece off my face and reset it lower. The other is to drop my jaw. I try hard not to do either, but if you were just doing exercises and not paying attention you might be doing one of those, and I think they're probably both wrong.

There are definitely wrong ways to make them speak. One is to place the slide in the incorrect spot for the note played. If the slide is just millimeters off you have to compensate with the body (lips probably) and that means a loss of sound. If the slide is on the right spot still the blow needs to be efficient. If ttere are tensions it will affect sound. Also all other acoustical things like mouth cavaty, lungs, throat, body shape affect sound. The instrument with the mouthpiece too, even dirt in the instrument affects sound end the surroundings as the room. Best start is to find the correct spot for any note on the slide and then I mean with the proper adjustments on each valved position by the millimeter.

If you come from a straight trombone and know the factitious notes they can help

/Tom

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:17 am One of the problems here is that there are ways to make those notes speak that might be wrong. So some of the exercises that might work very well if done correctly could be counterproductive if done another way. I think, anyway.

I could make a video maybe of how it affects me, but every mouth is different and it might not help. Also I'm more of a typical community band amateur. So don't take anything i say for gospel. (maybe i should stop defining myself that way now that community bands no longer exist!)

For me, I need mouthpiece motion upwards and left (relative to my face) to ascend in range, and the opposite to descend. The mouthpiece does not slide on my lips; it remains on my preferred set point, but it pulls up or down. The lips either slide on the teeth or they stretch, I'm not really sure. If I fight that and keep it stationary, I get exactly the results the OP describes in the low register - notes that won't speak. When I make that motion correctly for my chops, the notes speak as well as they're going to at my skill level. It seems to me that having that amount of motion exactly correct is more critical down low, but that may be because I don't spend a lot of time down there.

I mentioned I think there are some wrong ways. Now, this is just me thinking out loud. But there are two ways I can make those notes speak without doing my motion/pivot. One is to pull the mouthpiece off my face and reset it lower. The other is to drop my jaw. I try hard not to do either, but if you were just doing exercises and not paying attention you might be doing one of those, and I think they're probably both wrong.

One of the problems here is that if you are not used to play in the low range, you might (very common) do wierd thing with you embouchure, and the way to blow air. That is not counting the slide positions. I have the larger part of my life been lip and mpc buzzing, I have let many student do the same. Most (I think all) tenor trombone student could buzz down to the E2. When starting to learn the F attachment they tried to buzz lower,like Eb, allmost no one could. Actually I don´t remeber any 16 year student buzzing the Eb first time.There is the risk that they start doing some wierd things with the chops trying to get the low tones.

I will not go into any tips on what to do with the embouchure here. Why? Since everybody need individual information about embouchure it would do more harm than good. And also, if not followed up it could be really bad. That said. If you have to reset you mpc to play in the trigger range, I do wonder if you have your best mpc positon to begin with? If you have to drop your jaw to play in the trigger range you have some work to do.

( Many basstromboine players have been doing some kind of shift for loud pedals from pedal G and down, I have many times dropped my jaw in situations in the last set for a loud pedal FF. I do play all the pedal without shift up to maybe forte. The drop is maybe 2-2,5 mm not much but it helps. A bigger drop would not work for most players.)

As Thomas mentioned, factitous tones is a good help for many. Sometimes not. Because to large lip movement, the tones wil be muddy, both the fake tones and the trigger tones. If you get a good sounding Eb on the fourth positions you might be spot on.