TromboneChat

Just came across this:

There is a thread already running about this

These competitions are always for people who are too young. The ones who are interesting to listen to at that age are born for it, and unbeatable at any age, I reckon.

In other words, the age restrictions are dumb.

I appreciate the restriction of "not being engaged by a current orchestra". A lot of the ITF and big competition playing field right now is dominated by young players with jobs already. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, just creates a different playing field.

Not that they asked me, but I think it would be excellent if ITF, ATW, etc. had a competition category for amateurs. These things seem to assume that everyone is either a student or a professional, but there are a lot more amateurs than pros. It wouldn't have to be something that offered a big prize, but the chance to play and compete would be a lot of fun.

Even the chess federation does that ^

What grinds my gears is that these competitions assume that "ancient" musicians over the age of 25 have all gotten a chance to do a concerto competition or compete in an event like this. That can't be farther from the case. The difference between a lot of advanced students and pros is literally just a number. But you hardly see any "open" competitions.

Who wouldn't want to get their butt kicked by Peter Steiner in an open competition?

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:04 pm Not that they asked me, but I think it would be excellent if ITF, ATW, etc. had a competition category for amateurs. These things seem to assume that everyone is either a student or a professional, but there are a lot more amateurs than pros. It wouldn't have to be something that offered a big prize, but the chance to play and compete would be a lot of fun.

I that that is a great idea. A few friends and I have been part of a trombone quartet since the early 2000’s! We are community folks who all have studied music in the past, but have day jobs or are retired. It would be amazing if the door was open for folks like us to submit a video for the opportunity to perform a piece- although I think we’d qualify for the 55+ seniors category now;)

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:55 pm Even the chess federation does that ^

What grinds my gears is that these competitions assume that "ancient" musicians over the age of 25 have all gotten a chance to do a concerto competition or compete in an event like this. That can't be farther from the case. The difference between a lot of advanced students and pros is literally just a number. But you hardly see any "open" competitions.

Who wouldn't want to get their butt kicked by Peter Steiner in an open competition?

I think ATW is open to any age in division 3

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:55 pm Even the chess federation does that ^

Sort of, but you can essentially only win a "big" tournament once per rating category, and then you usually are prohibited from claiming any substantial prizes until you move up to the next tier (and at that point, you have a ways to go before you're winning the whole thing). The same anti-sandbagging rules also mean that older players past their prime are perpetually forced to lose against young players they can never keep up with, rather than move back down into a more appropriate category.

It would be nice in general to have more opportunities for amateur players. More community bands/orchestras would be great, along with some sort of solo opportunities. Otherwise why am I practicing the David again?

My teacher in HS gave me that solo when I was in 9th or 10th grade. I have practiced it off and on ever since then, but never performed it in public. It's really too long to do with a concert band and the local symphony hasn't come calling lately.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:53 pm My teacher in HS gave me that solo when I was in 9th or 10th grade. I have practiced it off and on ever since then, but never performed it in public. It's really too long to do with a concert band and the local symphony hasn't come calling lately.

There are some good band arrangements of the David, and it works well with the 2nd and 3rd mvts. if you're looking for a shorter piece. I played it that way with my orchestra on an outside concert some years ago, when they were concerned about timing for the rest of the program.

Jim Scott

We used to have to rent parts for the David with symphony orchestra, but I just did some searching on Luck's Music and discovered that it is available for purchase -- and not that expensive. That's the full orchestra version.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:53 pm My teacher in HS gave me that solo when I was in 9th or 10th grade. I have practiced it off and on ever since then, but never performed it in public. It's really too long to do with a concert band and the local symphony hasn't come calling lately.

Mine gave it to me around the same age out of stated frustration with hearing auditions in which candidates didn't play the rhythms precisely enough for his liking. I've also never performed it (or most of the other solo rep I've studied) in public.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:55 pm We used to have to rent parts for the David with symphony orchestra, but I just did some searching on Luck's Music and discovered that it is available for purchase -- and not that expensive. That's the full orchestra version.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Trombone_Concert ... Ferdinand)

All the parts are free, public domain on IMSLP

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:54 pm

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:53 pm My teacher in HS gave me that solo when I was in 9th or 10th grade. I have practiced it off and on ever since then, but never performed it in public. It's really too long to do with a concert band and the local symphony hasn't come calling lately.

Mine gave it to me around the same age out of stated frustration with hearing auditions in which candidates didn't play the rhythms precisely enough for his liking. I've also never performed it (or most of the other solo rep I've studied) in public.

My biggest pet peeves in trombone pedagogy are the teachers who can't see the forrest for the trees with this piece. Sure, play the right rhythms -- the orchestra plays the same exact rhythm as the solo part. But how many times have I heard uninspired, horrible "performances" of this piece where the only thing right about it is the damn dotted eighth rhythm. No one goes to a concert to hear if the soloist can play the dotted eight rhythm correctly.

I'm quite sure he understood there's more to music than just the rhythms. But disapproving of people who try to go pro without getting basic technique down isn't really "missing the forest for the trees," nor is it inappropriate pedagogy to emphasize those foundational skills for a young student.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:12 pm

My biggest pet peeves in trombone pedagogy are the teachers who can't see the forrest for the trees with this piece. Sure, play the right rhythms -- the orchestra plays the same exact rhythm as the solo part. But how many times have I heard uninspired, horrible "performances" of this piece where the only thing right about it is the damn dotted eighth rhythm. No one goes to a concert to hear if the soloist can play the dotted eight rhythm correctly.

They're teaching it as an audition piece, not a performance piece. Gotta play it spot on for an audition or competition or you're right out.

I know. That's why it's a pet peeve. Every time that one rhythm, in this one piece, is brought up, I die a little faster on the inside. Poor Ferdinand David. It's a nonsensical pet peeve of mine that defies logical explanation.

But still...

Who cares if the rhythm is spot on if the tone, intonation, musical direction/destination, volume, and presence is otherwise HORRENDOUS. Or worse, they just sound ... "Meh". The teacher failed that student.

I'd rather listen to someone who sounds great and interprets music than someone who sounds terrible but plays the right notes and rhythms. At the end of the day they both get sent packing at an audition, but one might get called back to fight another day.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:56 amI'd rather listen to someone who sounds great and interprets music than someone who sounds terrible but plays the right notes and rhythms. At the end of the day they both get sent packing at an audition, but one might get called back to fight another day.

If someone can't play the right notes, in tune, at the right time, they're gonna sound bad no matter what musical interpretation is in their head. Getting the technical stuff down solid is a prerequisite before you can do any meaningful interpretation of the music.

This is going off topic and will probably get derailed, but for me, the rhythmic element that gets missed is that the outer mvts. (same musical material) are a march. The placement of the 16th note in the theme isn't really the main problem - it's what follows. Students get so flustered trying to sort out the rhythm, and miss the pulse - the 4/4 feel that defines the march. The triplet on beat 4 has to drive towards the next downbeat, since the phrase goes to the 2nd bar. This is the basis for the musical direction - a fairly consistent direction through the 1st bar towards the 2nd bar. There's more, of course, to go into teaching the phrasing, but that's the first thing I emphasize. The 16th note has to get addressed - but mostly to get to the triplet on time, and then to make sure that the triplet doesn't drag (common among some trombone players). Then, of course, that triplet leads towards the next downbeat.

There are places in the David that lend themselves to rubato, but to my ears they are much more effective musically if there is a solid 4/4 feel and steadiness in the surrounding musical material.

Of course, it's also a good piece for emphasizing great tone (including playing with bravura style in the opening, and more lyrically in the next passage). Tons of dynamic differences, and good opportunities to emphasize tuning (lots of F's, E flats, D's in 4th - high G's and F#'s for instance). Different articulations show up too, so that can be addressed.

Anyway, this is getting long. The David is a good piece for audiences, and also a good audition piece or pedagogical tool for students. It works on a lot of levels.

Jim Scott

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:05 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:56 amI'd rather listen to someone who sounds great and interprets music than someone who sounds terrible but plays the right notes and rhythms. At the end of the day they both get sent packing at an audition, but one might get called back to fight another day.

If someone can't play the right notes, in tune, at the right time, they're gonna sound bad no matter what musical interpretation is in their head. Getting the technical stuff down solid is a prerequisite before you can do any meaningful interpretation of the music.

Again, staying off topic:

This is also why it's a pet peeve of mine -- even when I clearly say that I would rather hear the rhythm played incorrectly but with beautiful tone, intonation, and musical interpretation (the opposite of what you usually hear even if the rhythm is right), people on this forum STILL retort back with:

"No, the notes need to be right, in tune, and at the right time or else it will sound bad"

Of course they need to be the right notes, in tune. If your pet peeve is someone chewing loudly, and you point that out to them, and they tell you "everybody has gotta eat" from around the back of a big wad of steak, that does nothing for you - makes it worse. They are right, but they missed your point.

Why do we never hear about other pieces with cliche pedagogy attached to them? For every time I've heard "oh, the Rouse Concerto? 11/16, 13/16, 15/16 mixed meter, you idiot", I've heard "David Concerto? Oh don't mess up the dotted eighth figure" at least 82,000 billions timez. We should get negative "shame" points for even mentioning it outside of a private lesson, to avoid embarrassment for all parties involved over such a simple rhythm. Especially if that student has other fish to fry. Rant complete.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:04 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:05 am
If someone can't play the right notes, in tune, at the right time, they're gonna sound bad no matter what musical interpretation is in their head. Getting the technical stuff down solid is a prerequisite before you can do any meaningful interpretation of the music.

Again, staying off topic:

This is also why it's a pet peeve of mine -- even when I clearly say that I would rather hear the rhythm played incorrectly but with beautiful tone, intonation, and musical interpretation (the opposite of what you usually hear even if the rhythm is right), people on this forum STILL retort back with:

"No, the notes need to be right, in tune, and at the right time or else it will sound bad"

Of course they need to be the right notes, in tune. If your pet peeve is someone chewing loudly, and you point that out to them, and they tell you "everybody has gotta eat" from around the back of a big wad of steak, that does nothing for you - makes it worse. They are right, but they missed your point.

Why do we never hear about other pieces with cliche pedagogy attached to them? For every time I've heard "oh, the Rouse Concerto? 11/16, 13/16, 15/16 mixed meter, you idiot", I've heard "David Concerto? Oh don't mess up the dotted eighth figure" at least 82,000 billions timez. We should get negative "shame" points for even mentioning it outside of a private lesson, to avoid embarrassment for all parties involved over such a simple rhythm. Especially if that student has other fish to fry. Rant complete.

Well the problem is your pet peeve is a stupid one. That’d be like saying, “man I wish LeBron James didn’t watch so much film and try to refine his craft so much, he’s losing sight of what’s important because basketball is supposed to be fun!” The fact of the matter is that David wrote a dotted eighth and a sixteenth, if it takes more time to perfect that (because it is difficult) then so be it! It’s a vital aspect of the character of the music, and to miss it is to miss something essential in David’s conception of this piece. If you want to make the argument that people don’t play this piece with a good sound, good intonation or musical interpretation then fine that’s valid, but if you’re saying that their performances are lacking in those ways BECAUSE they were taught to play the correct rhythm then you will face backlash, because again, that is dumb.

Of course performances should have all the other things you mentioned, with a well thought out musical plan as priority number 1 but you only build that plan with building blocks and seeing that the dotted eighth sixteenth is the first thing that David writes for the trombone I’d say it’s pretty important to get that right! Really not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, having a pet peeve about this does not preclude you from receiving criticism over your “take.” I wish you and your students the best of luck in preparing this piece!

No. Not saying that. Again, my pet peeve is reaffirmed by more people digging trenches around this simple rhythm and saying that I somehow think playing the rhythm wrong is good form. I'm just saying I can call it when someone playing the piece is traumatized by this one figure and doesn't sound good playing the other 99% of the piece. I wish people had something actually interesting to say about the David, and that all trombonists who put in inordinate amount of work on the dotted eighth also put in equal amounts of work on the other 99.9999% of the music the piece contains. I'm sorry, but you've missed the forest for the trees if you need to spend hours and hours on one simple rhythm and want to call that "refining your 'craft'"... Maybe if you're 14 years old and just starting.

What part of "yes, play the right rhythm, but also realize that that is not an accomplishment or even 1% of what is good about this piece. Even from a pedagogical standpoint." is not being conveyed by what I wrote?

I'll respond for the next person:

"Nope. That's dumb. Gotta play the rhythm right. People gotta eat."

Out.

I'm with you Harrison. I'm with all the others too.

Playing the rhythm right doesn't mean it's impossible to play the rest nicely. Don't understand why there's so much heat on that piece...

Let's get back on topic. Or get another interesting topic. I think on this one everybody made their point.

Back on topic, I like that he mentions relatively obscure pieces like Xenakis, Keren, as what they are hoping people play. I think it was Fredric Belli who has a LIVE recording of the piece and he really did it justice!

Someone who plays that for a competition has serious guts.