TromboneChat

Wondering if anyone else gets headaches from musculo-skeletal tension during or after playing.

We should have a "Trombone and Health" forum...

Check out your head position. Don't
bend down to reach the horn, bring it up to your face. I'm guilty of that myself sometimes.

What Doug said. Specifically, it's usually the muscles at the base of the skull/where you neck starts that get unhappy.

I'm having headaches on the right side of the head, starting this past Monday. I did just switch to a slightly heavier horn, and I do tend to carry tension in my trapezius muscles. No pain on left side, back of head, across forehead, center of face. Just the right side from above ear to behind eye.

Doesn't sound trombone-related to me.

That sounds like sinus problems

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:27 pm That sounds like sinus problems

It’s not.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:06 pm Doesn't sound trombone-related to me.

I kind of thought not, but I don’t want it to be more serious...

i always get headaches when i dont drink enough water, bought a nalgene bottle and never have this problem anymore

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:53 pm i always get headaches when i dont drink enough water, bought a nalgene bottle and never have this problem anymore

Good thought, but that’s not it. It’s either muscle strain or something more serious.

I doubt there are any doctors here on TC who would be able to diagnose and recommend an appropriate treatment for your condition. Hint...

Asking for medical advice here is like asking your doctor for advice on playing trombone.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:12 pm Asking for medical advice here is like asking your doctor for advice on playing trombone.

Thanks. Of course you’re right. But it’s still valid to ask whether other players experience pains related to playing trombone. Shoulder, wrist and hand pain, for example, are common.

BTW I have asked my sports medicine specialist and physical therapist for exercises to support playing this asymmetrical, un-ergonomic instrument. Neither of them plays trombone, but they’re still helpful.

I have a couple of cervical nerve and related issues, but none are close to what you're describing.
There could be a nerve problem higher up than mine, but my guess is pressure / strain.
Since you're leaning against sinus issues, I'd look at jaw alignment.
I did deal with TMJD many years ago, that seems about the right area for it.
The weight of the horn and how you hold could transfer into the jaw muscles.
If you've already got a physical therapist, maybe looking at the possibility of the best position for holding the weight of the instrument may not be the best for actually playing it /pushing your face against it?
Maybe check with a good dentist as well?

If it is a sudden onset of pain, also consider the possibility of shingles, which should be treated immediately.

Ever seen a trombonist show up with eyebrows like a Cro Magnon? Be afraid because that’s your competition. It’s muscles, and getting used to new equipment makes sense. You might have a jaw problem you’re over compensating for also, but the muscles tend to work it out. I had a massage therapist tell me once that I had the biggest muscles she’d ever felt on a head. I laughed but she told me she basically holds heads in her hands all day. You’d be surprised what we use up there, and how the muscles can grow into big straps running from your eyes, over your head to the base of your neck.
Try a myofacial massage or you may just need a day off.
It could also be high blood pressure, but that tends to knock you out after playing. The solo from Bolero will make the veins on your head look like they’ll explode. They look like that because, they just might.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:49 pm If it is a sudden onset of pain, also consider the possibility of shingles, which should be treated immediately.

Thanks, Doug. It really can’t be shingles, as I’ve had both my Shingrix™ shots (and that’s a story in itself). But I do appreciate the thought.

I really think a “trombone-related health issues” forum would be a good idea on Trombone Chat. It’s not just Trombone Lung and sore wrists, after all.

MuscleMouth wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:47 am Ever seen a trombonist show up with eyebrows like a Cro Magnon? Be afraid because that’s your competition. It’s muscles, and getting used to new equipment makes sense. You might have a jaw problem you’re over compensating for also, but the muscles tend to work it out. I had a massage therapist tell me once that I had the biggest muscles she’d ever felt on a head. I laughed but she told me she basically holds heads in her hands all day. You’d be surprised what we use up there, and how the muscles can grow into big straps running from your eyes, over your head to the base of your neck.
Try a myofacial massage or you may just need a day off.
It could also be high blood pressure, but that tends to knock you out after playing. The solo from Bolero will make the veins on your head look like they’ll explode. They look like that because, they just might.

This is more along the lines I was thinking.

At first, I was worried it might be a stroke, because of the fairly sudden onset and the sharpness of the pain. (And I will see my cardiologist, for good measure). But I did all the standard stroke self-tests (Arms overhead, stick out tongue, smile, listen to my speech, check for blurred or tunnel vision, ringing in ears, nausea or sudden bowel upset) and all were negative.

I have gone to massage therapy for years, and had about a year’s worth of physical therapy. (We could really use a Trombone and Health forum!) I’ve picked up a few things on the way, one of which is awareness that the shoulder, neck and head muscles can get tight, stay tight, and cause problems elsewhere.

In fact, I took the day off from practicing yesterday, and my symptoms have improved somewhat. So that’s encouraging. I’ll have a zoom session with my massage therapist this morning to review some simple, gentle stretches, and hopefully will be back in the saddle again soon.

Thanks!

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:45 pm
BTW I have asked my sports medicine specialist and physical therapist for exercises to support playing this asymmetrical, un-ergonomic instrument. Neither of them plays trombone, but they’re still helpful.

That's a good point.
We hold a heavy awkward unergonomic instrument with one hand for hours a day, contorting our body to balance it.

Tim Ferris in that recent book claimed that Michele Wie's career ending injuries are a result of how one sided an activity golf is, and that her trainer focusing on symmetry is helping. I havent been able to confirm that through google.

Here's one link:
https://www.functionalmovement.com/arti ... _exercises

We should have a "Trombone and Health" forum...

I agree.

There used to be just such a section on the previous incarnation of the forum.
The old posts can still be found here:

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewforum.php?f=56

To address Reedman1's (OP) issue, you may also be having some kind of tension headache. Some stretching before playing, especially upper body stretching, I've found to help with this. Shoulder stretches, tricep stretches, neck rolls, and even some standing toe touches can make a big difference. It's all connected!

bassboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm To address Reedman1's (OP) issue, you may also be having some kind of tension headache. Some stretching before playing, especially upper body stretching, I've found to help with this. Shoulder stretches, tricep stretches, neck rolls, and even some standing toe touches can make a big difference. It's all connected!

Thanks - that's pretty much what my massage therapist recommended, plus something more or less like the Savasana practice from yoga. After a remote session under her guidance, I was able to reduce the headache considerably. It's not entirely gone, but I've got it under control.

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:49 pm

bassboy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm To address Reedman1's (OP) issue, you may also be having some kind of tension headache. Some stretching before playing, especially upper body stretching, I've found to help with this. Shoulder stretches, tricep stretches, neck rolls, and even some standing toe touches can make a big difference. It's all connected!

Thanks - that's pretty much what my massage therapist recommended, plus something more or less like the Savasana practice from yoga. After a remote session under her guidance, I was able to reduce the headache considerably. It's not entirely gone, but I've got it under control.

That's great man, happy for you!

bassboy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:01 pm

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:49 pm

Thanks - that's pretty much what my massage therapist recommended, plus something more or less like the Savasana practice from yoga. After a remote session under her guidance, I was able to reduce the headache considerably. It's not entirely gone, but I've got it under control.

That's great man, happy for you!

Thank you! Of course, there's always other things that can hurt...

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:32 pm

bassboy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:01 pm

That's great man, happy for you!

Thank you! Of course, there's always other things that can hurt...

Part of the fun of getting older: operating "as usual" and seeing what breaks!

bassboy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:27 am

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:32 pm

Thank you! Of course, there's always other things that can hurt...

Part of the fun of getting older: operating "as usual" and seeing what breaks!

100%!

I hope you have found relief and I mean that sincerely.

I encouraged my wife to read this thread for some help. She suffers from acute headaches when I play.

ArbanRubank wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:31 am I hope you have found relief and I mean that sincerely.

I encouraged my wife to read this thread for some help. She suffers from acute headaches when I play.

me too!!

Ok quite a few people have made suggestions and you've refuted all of them. My suggestion is go to a DR who can actually help diagnose you and then let us know what it is. Good Luck!!!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:02 pm Ok quite a few people have made suggestions and you've refuted all of them. My suggestion is go to a DR who can actually help diagnose you and then let us know what it is. Good Luck!!!

Thanks for your suggestion. I believe I mentioned that my massage therapist, working remotely, was able to help me sort it out, and I now haven’t had a headache in a week. If she had not been able to help, I would certainly have gone to a doctor.

The working diagnosis for the successful treatment was musculoskeletal pain, due to compressing the plates of the skull on that side of my head, and the cause would have been jaw, neck and shoulder tension.

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:44 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:02 pm Ok quite a few people have made suggestions and you've refuted all of them. My suggestion is go to a DR who can actually help diagnose you and then let us know what it is. Good Luck!!!

Thanks for your suggestion. I believe I mentioned that my massage therapist, working remotely, was able to help me sort it out, and I now haven’t had a headache in a week. If she had not been able to help, I would certainly have gone to a doctor.

The working diagnosis for the successful treatment was musculoskeletal pain, due to compressing the plates of the skull on that side of my head, and the cause would have been jaw, neck and shoulder tension.

Very glad you have found some relief!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:28 am

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:44 pm

Thanks for your suggestion. I believe I mentioned that my massage therapist, working remotely, was able to help me sort it out, and I now haven’t had a headache in a week. If she had not been able to help, I would certainly have gone to a doctor.

The working diagnosis for the successful treatment was musculoskeletal pain, due to compressing the plates of the skull on that side of my head, and the cause would have been jaw, neck and shoulder tension.

Very glad you have found some relief!

Thank you, WGWTR180. And be assured, if I had not been able to rule out medical danger from the start by doing the stroke self-exam, I would have gone to the emergency room and gotten seen by an emergency doctor, regardless the ridiculous cost and the weeks of time and out of pocket expense it would take after that to get a formal diagnosis and treatment.

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:14 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:28 am
Very glad you have found some relief!

Thank you, WGWTR180. And be assured, if I had not been able to rule out medical danger from the start by doing the stroke self-exam, I would have gone to the emergency room and gotten seen by an emergency doctor, regardless the ridiculous cost and the weeks of time and out of pocket expense it would take after that to get a formal diagnosis and treatment.

Everyone, well almost everyone, is one edge these days when certain "symptoms" pop up. Obviously the emergency room would've been a last resort but glad your massage therapist was able to help you out. A good friend of mine who happens to be a Hoshino therapist has helped me out of several jams in recent years. One thing he's always consistent about saying is "most problems start with the neck." So far he's been spot on!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:39 pm

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:14 pm

Thank you, WGWTR180. And be assured, if I had not been able to rule out medical danger from the start by doing the stroke self-exam, I would have gone to the emergency room and gotten seen by an emergency doctor, regardless the ridiculous cost and the weeks of time and out of pocket expense it would take after that to get a formal diagnosis and treatment.

Everyone, well almost everyone, is one edge these days when certain "symptoms" pop up. Obviously the emergency room would've been a last resort but glad your massage therapist was able to help you out. A good friend of mine who happens to be a Hoshino therapist has helped me out of several jams in recent years. One thing he's always consistent about saying is "most problems start with the neck." So far he's been spot on!

That's good to hear. My MT says a lot of similar stuff, though sometimes the origin of most problems moves around. But she's great, and has helped me a lot over the years.