TromboneChat

I have a Bach Strad Model 50 bass trombone. It has a dual independent F and Gb triggers. I believe is from the 1970s (1975 based on the serial #). Conn Selmer did not have a shop card for my instrument. Only information I have been able to find is from a repair shop that said it was made right around when Vincent Bach started being manufactured in Indiana. Does anyone know much about the model 50 from the 70s or know where I can find out more about it?

Thanks!

Sounds like a Corporation 50B3. Not much to know other than that.

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:37 am I have a Bach Strad Model 50 bass trombone. It has a dual independent F and Gb triggers. I believe is from the 1970s (1975 based on the serial #). Conn Selmer did not have a shop card for my instrument. Only information I have been able to find is from a repair shop that said it was made right around when Vincent Bach started being manufactured in Indiana. Does anyone know much about the model 50 from the 70s or know where I can find out more about it?

Thanks!

Selmer moved Bach production from Mt Vernon NY to Elkhart IN in the 1964- 65 time frame. When they moved production they started producing the trumpets and trombones in higher volumes. They also stopped generating shop cards. Especially early in the company's history, Vincent Bach was tinkering with the instruments. The shop cards were apparently his way of tracking what had been done and who it was sold to. (As an extreme example, the NY Model 6 had seven different variants, as Bach tinkered with neckpipes, tuning slides, etc.). In Elkhart, they concentrated on making instruments from the successful designs and tinkered a lot less. Now they don't tinker at all that I can discern.

That's a long way of saying that there never was a shop card for your horn.

A 1975 50B3 (the inline double valve bass) would be one of the very early B3s, if the bell and slide are original to each other, and if the instrument is original. That is, if it was not converted to an in-line by someone like Burt Herrick, Larry Minick, Chuck Alexander, or George Strucel.

Thanks very much for the info Dennis! I think I'm at least the third owner of this horn. The lacquer was stripped and I think the slide isn't original to the horn. Is there a way to tell if it was converted to an in-line?

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:08 pm Thanks very much for the info Dennis! I think I'm at least the third owner of this horn. The lacquer was stripped and I think the slide isn't original to the horn. Is there a way to tell if it was converted to an in-line?

Posting pictures would be the easiest way to tell!

Pretty sure the Bach50b3 was not introduced until 1978 based on google search for Bach advertisement.

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:15 pm

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:08 pm Thanks very much for the info Dennis! I think I'm at least the third owner of this horn. The lacquer was stripped and I think the slide isn't original to the horn. Is there a way to tell if it was converted to an in-line?

Posting pictures would be the easiest way to tell!

The serial number is on the slide, and it's very possible that the slide and bell are not original to each other.

Again, pictures can help identify.

Does the bell say Corporation on it?

Here are pictures. Serial # on the slide is 15458. The slide also says Model 50 so I guess it is original to the horn.

That's been modded after the fact. No knowing which valve configuration it was at first. The second valve is from a 50B3, but could have come from somewhere else.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 3:33 pm That's been modded after the fact. No knowing which valve configuration it was at first. The second valve is from a 50B3, but could have come from somewhere else.

I was thinking the same thing. The 2nd valve trigger at least is OEM Bach parts.

Do you think that's modern Conn 62h tubing? The wrap looks almost identical. Either way it looks slick!

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:21 pm

Do you think that's modern Conn 62h tubing? The wrap looks almost identical. Either way it looks slick!

I was thinking the same thing... It would need a bit of finagling to fit the Bach valve spacing, of course

Thank you all so much! This is very interesting information. Now that I think about it, 2 owners before me, the person liked to have custom work done on their horns.

Dennis wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:00 pm Selmer moved Bach production from Mt Vernon NY to Elkhart IN in the 1964- 65 time frame. When they moved production they started producing the trumpets and trombones in higher volumes. They also stopped generating shop cards. Especially early in the company's history, Vincent Bach was tinkering with the instruments. The shop cards were apparently his way of tracking what had been done and who it was sold to. (As an extreme example, the NY Model 6 had seven different variants, as Bach tinkered with neckpipes, tuning slides, etc.). In Elkhart, they concentrated on making instruments from the successful designs and tinkered a lot less. Now they don't tinker at all that I can discern.

That's a long way of saying that there never was a shop card for your horn.

A 1975 50B3 (the inline double valve bass) would be one of the very early B3s, if the bell and slide are original to each other, and if the instrument is original. That is, if it was not converted to an in-line by someone like Burt Herrick, Larry Minick, Chuck Alexander, or George Strucel.

Just a quick note, the shop cards stopped slightly before the transfer to Elkhart. The last trombone shop card in in the neighborhood of 6300. Serial numbers get kinda funny between there and ~10K, I don't trust those very much. There was some parallel production during the transfer, so you have some Elkhart horns with lower numbers than some Mt V. horns.. definitely not as disciplined as it was before or after. I would not be surprised to find duplicate serial numbers.

Cheers,
Andy

The traditional closed wrap 50B3 doesn't have the valves at offset angles like that.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:00 am The traditional closed wrap 50B3 doesn't have the valves at offset angles like that.

No, but rotating the casings during the re-wrap would be no big deal.

Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?

If you can rotate the valve slightly out of the plane of the bell, you can minimize bends in the tubing since the tubing will naturally fall above or below the plane of the bell. The whole idea behind open wraps was to minimize bends, so having o add a bend to move the tubing off the plane of the bell section seems to defeat the purpose.

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:35 am Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?

Definitely not for aesthetics.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:57 am

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:35 am Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?

Definitely not for aesthetics.

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:57 am

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:35 am Would there be any benefit to a rewrap to rotate the casing or just for aesthetics or preference?

Definitely not for aesthetics.

In your opinion. Obviously, someone had it done whatever their reason. Since unfortunately, I don't know who had this modified and I'm no expert in these modifications I thought others with more knowledge might help with insights. This is all very interesting to learn.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:15 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:57 am
Definitely not for aesthetics.

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:28 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:57 am
Definitely not for aesthetics.

In your opinion. Obviously, someone had it done whatever their reason. Since unfortunately, I don't know who had this modified and I'm no expert in these modifications I thought others with more knowledge might help with insights. This is all very interesting to learn.

At that's exactly what you received-my opinion.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:15 pm

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.

Agreed, on aesthetic grounds I think it looks much cleaner to have the rotors flush in the plane of the bell.

With that said, I'll always take an instrument that sounds good over one that looks good.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:15 pm

Ok, I'll bite... This is such a weird thing that you and Dan Satterwhite always harp on. Why? No judgment here, there are some design trends I don't like either.

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.

I only say it's weird because you bring it up every chance you possibly can.

I'm with Bill on this one.
Having the casings "off center" makes the construction a "little" bit easier, but to my eye, just doesn't look "right". I don't believe it makes any difference to the playability of the horn in any way. It does potentially have carry on effects with lever geometry, though.

This is going to sound odd, but I honestly find that rotating the valve casings creates a cleaner look, such as on the King 7B.
Some other open-wrap horns have to add additional small bends in order to reach their straight casings, in extreme cases ending up like the Conn 112H and its Jupiter clone, with a few large 90 degree bends.
These bends would in theory add more resistance. To me, they look even more clumsy than rotating the valve by 20 degrees to facilitate having tubing run into the valve at the right angle.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:22 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Well because it's different you think it's weird. Typical of different opinions these days. I happen to think that the valves place perfectly inline with each other looks great. I think the other looks bad and ergonomically "weird". My opinion. Not yours? That's fine but not weird.

I only say it's weird because you bring it up every chance you possibly can.

And you always jump in anytime I bring something up.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:43 pm I'm with Bill on this one.
Having the casings "off center" makes the construction a "little" bit easier, but to my eye, just doesn't look "right". I don't believe it makes any difference to the playability of the horn in any way. It does potentially have carry on effects with lever geometry, though.

I was going to post a pic of one of your instruments to show the beauty, to my eye, in the design. I've always felt that other manufacturers that choose to offset the inline valves do it because the part coming out of the valve port is easier to make. I even saw a dependent setup with the 2nd valve turned in towards where my cheek would be. Not attractive at all.

Hobart, But that is not how it works. The shape of a valve loop wrap has much less influence on how the valve range plays than the valve design. If you find a 112H to be "stuffy", it isn't because of the valve wrap, it is because of the valves. An free blowing valve with a "traditional" tight wrap plays just as open as that same valve with an "open wrap". I've done the experiments!

Thanks Bill.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:44 pm The shape of a valve loop wrap has much less influence on how the valve range plays than the valve design. If you find a 112H to be "stuffy", it isn't because of the valve wrap, it is because of the valves. An free blowing valve with a "traditional" tight wrap plays just as open as that same valve with an "open wrap".

Thanks Bill.

So no particular advantage to open wrap? Which is perhaps why I still love my old 88H? (Though it could be even better with a larger, more modern valve?)

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:40 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:22 pm

I only say it's weird because you bring it up every chance you possibly can.

And you always jump in anytime I bring something up.

Well, that's just patently untrue.

In any case... it's an odd thing to harp on, when there are plenty of really great horns out there with that design.

In the case of this particular instrument, it makes a lot of sense and looks well built. I'd love to give it a blow.

Aidan, personal proclivities influence everything in life. If having the casings off center means that you either like or dislike a horn, that is a personal preference which is real. Aesthetics are important. But not everyone has the same idea as to what is aesthetically pleasing.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:01 pm Aidan, personal proclivities influence everything in life. If having the casings off center means that you either like or dislike a horn, that is a personal preference which is real. Aesthetics are important. But not everyone has the same idea as to what is aesthetically pleasing.

Yes, and I don't disagree. I just find it odd to chime in with that opinion presented as fact. There's plenty of things on instruments I don't like that I manage to keep to myself.

Posaunus.
The reason why trombones started being "open wrapped" was to prevent water collection in the wrap. Not to make the play more open. But that idea also came along with the change in trend. So now manufacturers offer open wraps because thatbis wht the market demands.

My favorite horn has an M&W valve with traditional wrap. It plays very open on the valve notes, but sure as apples starts to gurgle on valve notes after a while.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:50 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:40 pm

And you always jump in anytime I bring something up.

Well, that's just patently untrue.

In any case... it's an odd thing to harp on, when there are plenty of really great horns out there with that design.

In the case of this particular instrument, it makes a lot of sense and looks well built. I'd love to give it a blow.

Bob if your ever in Michigan, feel free to reach out. Your welcome to play it.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:43 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:43 pm I'm with Bill on this one.
Having the casings "off center" makes the construction a "little" bit easier, but to my eye, just doesn't look "right". I don't believe it makes any difference to the playability of the horn in any way. It does potentially have carry on effects with lever geometry, though.

I was going to post a pic of one of your instruments to show the beauty, to my eye, in the design. I've always felt that other manufacturers that choose to offset the inline valves do it because the part coming out of the valve port is easier to make. I even saw a dependent setup with the 2nd valve turned in towards where my cheek would be. Not attractive at all.

I'd be interested in seeing a pic of the design. Can you please post?

Here are some photos of M&W Valve sections.

Those are some beautiful instruments, Matthew. I especially like how the traditional wrap manages to stay compact without looking super cluttered (a frequent problem for closed wrap basses). Looks like bell-free bracing on all of them too?

The trad wrap does have bracing to the bell. It is not an issue because they are tension free, and they do not hamper bell resonance.

Another couple of pictures...

Those look sooo good

That single tis bell section is just stunning.

Chris

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:05 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:01 pm Aidan, personal proclivities influence everything in life. If having the casings off center means that you either like or dislike a horn, that is a personal preference which is real. Aesthetics are important. But not everyone has the same idea as to what is aesthetically pleasing.

Yes, and I don't disagree. I just find it odd to chime in with that opinion presented as fact. There's plenty of things on instruments I don't like that I manage to keep to myself.

Aidan you take my opinion as fact? It's my opinion. I'm not trying to harp on this but that's all it is. I'm not an instrument maker pounding my fist stating things like "how can anyone play this instrument."-and neither is anyone else here. It's an opinion. You have yours and I don't see where I said "you are wrong." If the horn plays great, which is all that matters, then great! If it doesn't it's not because of the valve placement. Enough.

Matthew seeing that independent traditional wrap is giving me ideas. Baaaad ideas. LOL!

Going off thread here..

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:12 pm
Another couple of pictures...

Matt, here is a previous Bach 50 of mine with the plug in valve running down the bell. This design is easier to hold then the original Holton plug in which pulled the horn too much to the left for me.

PM'ing you regarding a down the bell plug in second valve option for a Holton 169.

Joe Stanko

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:33 am Aidan you take my opinion as fact? It's my opinion. I'm not trying to harp on this but that's all it is. I'm not an instrument maker pounding my fist stating things like "how can anyone play this instrument."-and neither is anyone else here. It's an opinion. You have yours and I don't see where I said "you are wrong." If the horn plays great, which is all that matters, then great! If it doesn't it's not because of the valve placement. Enough.

Again, Bill, I don't mind the opinion, just the way it's expressed.

Hmmmm. My original quote: "definitely not for esthetics". Horrifying.

Remember when this thread was about a Bach?
Frankly, I'm curious to how it plays. We can probably make another thread to tear each other apart about rotated valve casings.

Hobart wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:52 am Remember when this thread was about a Bach?
Frankly, I'm curious to how it plays. We can probably make another thread to tear each other apart about rotated valve casings.

Hobart, it plays very well. I've had more people ask about the the lacquer being stripped then anything else. I was told it was done for a perceived "darker sound". In any case I like horn. Got it for like $800.

jcemu07 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:18 pm

Hobart wrote: ↑Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:52 am Remember when this thread was about a Bach?
Frankly, I'm curious to how it plays. We can probably make another thread to tear each other apart about rotated valve casings.

Hobart, it plays very well. I've had more people ask about the the lacquer being stripped then anything else. I was told it was done for a perceived "darker sound". In any case I like horn. Got it for like $800.

That's quite a steal, I got a horn in worse shape for $300 and one valve less.