What’s the deal with steel ??

[RustBeltBass]

The title says it all, well not really...

Over the course of my professional playing career I spent most of the time on big Schilke60 style pieces. For a while I tried the NYO and the Hardwood model by Giddings. I immediately loved the way they feel on my lips and how easy some things were.

But after a few weeks of getting used to it and recording myself a lot, I could not overcome the big discrepancy between what I felt like I sounded when I played and what I actually sounded like when listening to my playing. It was very different from what I was used to from all my other mouthpieces over the years. After a few more weeks I gave up.

A few years later I scaled down a bit on mouthpiece sizes and came across a Mark1 that I gave a good try. Again, I loved everything about it when playing it, again a few things just sound strange on it.

Steel has been an option for professional players since 2000, and if it was a bad product it would have vanished already. There are professional players who successfully have used them and continue to use them. They seem very popular among Tuba players as well. However, it seems they never really became “mainstream” or a valid option for the majority of professionals.

I wonder if I am alone with my difficulties with it. And I who tried them and decided against them ultimately and why.

[Burgerbob]

I feel like whatever quality makes them iffy on trombone makes them work very well on tuba- something about the directness of the response and sound clarifies the tuba. On trombone it's not as attractive.

I've gone through a few stainless pieces myself and just can't get on board with the sound.

I would like to try a piece that I do like as a copy in stainless, to see if it's the designs and not the material. Basically every Giddings design I've played is pretty wonky in some respect or another.

[BGuttman]

You aren't alone. Stainless steel has an advantage for players who are sensitive to silver plate, brass, and gold. But the metal absorbs (or doesn't absorb) different frequencies from the brass normally used. This shows up in the color of the sound. Some like it, some don't. Sometimes it negatively affects blend.

If you need to use stainless for allergic reasons, find a way to make peace with it. If you prefer the sound of a brass mouthpiece (regardless of plating) go with that.

Note that you can't plate stainless steel on brass (you can't plate stainless steel on anything). Nor can you flame coat it.

Note 2: Schilke made a few trumpet bells from steel (don't know if it was stainless) and the sound was very bright and tinny. Not a pleasant sound from a musical instrument.

[RustBeltBass]

I would like to try a piece that I do like as a copy in stainless, to see if it's the designs and not the material. Basically every Giddings design I've played is pretty wonky in some respect or another.

That’s a good point. I just do not understand Giddings Specs. They are not comparable to anything else. Even the comparisons in the descriptions for each model are no making sense. I do not remember details anymore but the former Markey model (NYO now) was described as based on a Schilke CV I think, and that is not making sense in any way.

The Mark1 is described to be somewhat related to a 1 1/4 Bach and without being very familiar on that size, it doesn’t feel right based on my playing on it.

Oddly enough, the high level players who I know use steel and sound great on it, don’t sound different to me from a brass using played. James Markey recorded the excerpt CD still using Giddings and when you listen to it, you immediately understands how he won all these major auditions, beyond amazing playing.
Daniel Brady from the Marine Band sounds absolutely amazing on it and subs in major groups.

I wonder if it is worth giving this a few more weeks. The nice thing about quarantine life is that feel I have enough time on hand to try all these things.

[pompatus]

Anyone out there making screw rims in stainless steel? From an allergen standpoint, I wonder how a stainless rim on a brass cup/shank may sound.

[BGuttman]

Anyone out there making screw rims in stainless steel? From an allergen standpoint, I wonder how a stainless rim on a brass cup/shank may sound.

I think Doug Elliott tried it. It's really tough to machine. He touts his plastic rims as hypoallergenic. Just gotta remember that they tend to accumulate bio-film.

[Burgerbob]

Oddly enough, the high level players who I know use steel and sound great on it, don’t sound different to me from a brass using played. James Markey recorded the excerpt CD still using Giddings and when you listen to it, you immediately understands how he won all these major auditions, beyond amazing playing.
Daniel Brady from the Marine Band sounds absolutely amazing on it and subs in major groups.

I feel that they are more the exception that proves the rule. Markey no longer plays his, for instance.

I have a great many friends that sound great and love the tuba pieces (and euphonium to a smaller extent), but I have yet to hear anyone live that really blew me away on a trombone model.

[hyperbolica]

Parker makes screw rim pieces in stainless for trombone. Houser is said to be coming out with stainless trombone pieces. Kelly makes an inexpensive stainless one piece. Usual suspects, Giddings and Loud.

[Burgerbob]

Houser already made them... I think they took a hiatus. I had a Houser Velocity 6 for small tenor a decade ago that was pretty good.

[bassboy]

Anyone out there making screw rims in stainless steel? From an allergen standpoint, I wonder how a stainless rim on a brass cup/shank may sound.

Dave Houser is an expert at copying rims and mouthpieces in stainless steel. He also uses 316, not 304 SS (what Giddings uses), which has a higher content of Molybdenum. His workflow also has a considerable backlog currently due to his services being in high demand. Worth the wait imo, send him an email.

Dave made me a stainless copy of an Elliott rim that I used on a brass lower for about 2-3 years. I loved it. I felt the steel rim helped the stability and core of the sound, while the brass cup helped keep more of the overtones and energy of the sound. It felt balanced, responsive and I enjoyed the sound I made. People I played with didn't seem to hate it either, and in general didn't have much difficulty blending in a section.

[Chatname]

Great chat name considering your stainless steel topic!
And by the way, the whole world is watching anxiously how your rust states have voted...
I just wanted to compliment you regarding your method. I think many of us make our decisions on equipment mostly by how it feels. I know I do, too often.
Using recordings (or other trusted people’s ears) to decide is of course far wiser.

[tbonesullivan]

I also had a SS G&W for a while. I think a Euros? I just didn't bond with it. The lip feel was "different" somehow. Almost like it "bounced back" more. Maybe due to the harder alloy?

Anyway, I felt it "supercharged" my sound somehow, but I didn't like the results coming out the other end. Maybe if I had given it more time?

But, I've found mouthpieces I love and sound great on, so I don't think I'll look at G&W again. Even the titanium ones.

[RustBeltBass]

Great chat name considering your stainless steel topic!
And by the way, the whole world is watching anxiously how your rust states have voted...
I just wanted to compliment you regarding your method. I think many of us make our decisions on equipment mostly by how it feels. I know I do, too often.
Using recordings (or other trusted people’s ears) to decide is of course far wiser.

Thank you for the kind words. I had started doing practice recordings based on an article on Toby Oft’s website, years ago. It was really a game changer for me.
I started using Amit as an equipment test method after listening to an interview Ian Bousfield had with Griego in which this was described.

Normally my seasons are too busy to try big experiments due to all the playing in my different contracted orchestras. But the pandemic really gave me time to try a GW interesting things out.
I feel there is some amazing quality to all the Giddings models but they are just a bit too weird in their dimensions to function well, but that’s just me and it’s just an opinion. I will give the Mark1 a bit more time.

[Driswood]

Harry Watters seems to make it work.

[Posaunus]

Harry Watters seems to make it work.

Giddings Harry Watters is a nice mouthpiece.

Elliot Mason has also played a custom Giddings piece - not sure whether he still does.

Giddings mouthpieces seem to be pretty popular here in Southern California. Wonder why?

[MikeS]

Anyone out there making screw rims in stainless steel? From an allergen standpoint, I wonder how a stainless rim on a brass cup/shank may sound.

The Parker 5G series of stainless rims will work on Doug Elliott XT cups. At the junction the Elliott cup is very, very slightly larger than the rim. You can barely feel it with your finger and I have not had any playing issues. The Parker rims are also not quite as thick as Doug’s so the overall cup depth will be a bit shallower.

I fell hard for the Parker 5G/51D LaDuke on my euphonium. I now use the Parker 5G 50M rim (same size and contour) with an Elliot C+ cup and appropriate shanks on small bore tenor and alto and an Elliot F cup on British baritone. The Parker rim is listed at 26.00mm. To me it feels smaller than a Wick 4 series or a Bach 4G, but larger than a Bach 5G.

[RustBeltBass]

Harry Watters seems to make it work.

When I started this topic I was admittedly, ignorant and thought mainly of bass trombone mouthpieces and maybe large Symphony tenors.

I am certainly not an expert in jazz music but I wouldn’t be surprised if that kind of players might see more benefits of a steel mouthpieces, especially how it feels ? I will give this back to the people who are qualified to comment.

[BrianJohnston]

I have the Kadja in SS from giddings, and I use it for loud/thick playing due to it's unique response. I find stainless steel to have more core than any type of material. It also rings a little warmer and stays together in the most extreme louds without getting overbearing to anyones ears. Anything below MF seems dull to me, i've referred to it as a one-trick pony, and that's still how I think of it.

[RustBeltBass]

I have the Kadja in SS from giddings, and I use it for loud/thick playing due to it's unique response. I find stainless steel to have more core than any type of material. It also rings a little warmer and stays together in the most extreme louds without getting overbearing to anyones ears. Anything below MF seems dull to me, i've referred to it as a one-trick pony, and that's still how I think of it.

Thanks for sharing, Brian. If I come to the same realization I will however not use it. It might be helpful in some playing situations but I don’t think I personally would like one mouthpiece so different from all others to do the trick.

As I had said before, there are some fantastic players who use nothing but Steele. Certainly the minority, but I wonder if many others just do not see a good reason to switch (enough great brass alternatives) or can not make it work.

I find it hard to believe a business model that the vast majority can not make work would have stayed in business for now almost 20 years. But what do I know about business...

[Posaunus]

I believe that Giddings stainless steel mouthpieces are more versatile and useful than some have claimed in this thread. Some of the models are a bit unusual (definitely not copied after Bach) – probably because they are based on the personal preferences of some Giddings customers. I have found a couple that work quite well for me in a variety of playing situations. But ... I'm not a full-time working pro!

[SimmonsTrombone]

I had an allergic reaction to my stainless tuba mouthpiece, and on research, was surprised to learn stainless steel has nickel in it. I had to switch to a lexan rim.

[BGuttman]

Many stainless steels have nickel in them, but not many people with nickel allergies react to it.

[tbonesullivan]

Many stainless steels have nickel in them, but not many people with nickel allergies react to it.

If I'm correct, Stainless steel is supposed to form an impermeable layer of Chromium Oxide, which is what prevents any further oxidation. Some acids can eat through this though.

[Doug Elliott]

Some people react to stainless, whatever the reason.. that's why they don't use it for implants.

[Posaunus]

Allergic reactions to the nickel in stainless steel are well-known, though fortunately rather uncommon.

Allergic response is often seen in stainless steel piercings (earlobe and ... elsewhere), and sometimes in orthodontic products (brackets, bands, wires, oral appliances). And sometimes stainless steel mouthpieces!

[davetrombizzle]

I had Dave Houser copy my main Elliott 101 Gold Narrow rim in stainless, and I love it. It's got all the great qualities of stainless on the face, but with the more traditional sound of a brass mouthpiece. I still use both rims interchangeably, whichever mouthpiece it is screwed on.

The Gold rim feels a little bit heavier, but perhaps a little more sticky. The stainless is very smooth and easy on the skin, while just a bit lighter.

[RustBeltBass]

I appreciate everyone’s highly interesting responses. I came to the conclusion that at least for the foreseeable future I am not going to try or settle on steel.

I am sure I could get used enough to it and “make it work”. After all, the equipment only ALLOWS for us to do things, and I think after some more time the Giddings would allow for me to do everything I want.
But: There are many brass options that allow for me to do everything as well without having to get used to the way steel feels on the face. I do not need it for allergic reactions so I do not need a non brass option desperately.

A colleague of mine who is one of the most busy freelancers in Chicago also mentioned to me that while he loved the way he sounded on it, it was very hard to fit into a section sound wise. In my case, it didn’t really get to this stage this time even, but knowing how phenomenal an orchestral player he is, I will just take his word for it.

[WGWTR180]

I tried the stainless steel pieces. Never liked the sound I achieved. Keeping in mind that sound is a personal choice I can also say that I haven't heard anyone play on it where I've found the sound pleasant to my ears. Sounds cold to me. As to allergy issues I have zero so I cannot speak to that. If you love it, play it.

[BigBadandBass]

Last year in my undergrad my orch section had 3/4 of us using SS Giddings. Two of us were using Kadjas and I was using a Don Harwood. We could really easily rip and tear through things, but that was about it, we could only really rip and tear, there wasn't much ping or resonance it just sounded like aggressive brass. You could hear it in our annual Christmas concert with the Choir, whenever we came in it was just doom, even during the somber quiet parts.

[hyperbolica]

I just got a Parker 4G stainless rim, and it fits my DE XT cup pretty well. It does give a slightly denser sound than lexan or gold or silver plate. I think it plays soft ok, particularly above the staff. Soft on the staff is a little more tentative.

[BrianJohnston]

Last year in my undergrad my orch section had 3/4 of us using SS Giddings. Two of us were using Kadjas and I was using a Don Harwood. We could really easily rip and tear through things, but that was about it, we could only really rip and tear, there wasn't much ping or resonance it just sounded like aggressive brass. You could hear it in our annual Christmas concert with the Choir, whenever we came in it was just doom, even during the somber quiet parts.

Your section surely would sound good on an aggressive Russian symphony though!

[BigBadandBass]

Last year in my undergrad my orch section had 3/4 of us using SS Giddings. Two of us were using Kadjas and I was using a Don Harwood. We could really easily rip and tear through things, but that was about it, we could only really rip and tear, there wasn't much ping or resonance it just sounded like aggressive brass. You could hear it in our annual Christmas concert with the Choir, whenever we came in it was just doom, even during the somber quiet parts.

Your section surely would sound good on an aggressive Russian symphony though!

We did actually play Tchaik like that now that you bring it up!

[mikerspencer]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread. Has anyone tried a Kelly SS mouthpiece? The rim profiles look very round!

Single piece: https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmstai ... /index.asp
Split piece: https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmstai ... /index.asp

[RustBeltBass]

I can not comment on the Kelley pieces but as the one who started the topic I feel like commenting.

I tried several GW steel mouthpieces since, and none except for one of them works for me. The specs are too strange/the description doesn’t seem to align with the mouthpiece. That was most obvious to me in the Mark1.

The one model I enjoy is the Harwood which seems more conventional and balanced as a model than all the others.

Very light response and great on the face, it darkens my sound a lot but I am happy with that. Problem is getting it matching others which is what makes me hesitant to use it full time.

[BrassSection]

My 2 cent worth: Has anybody ever considered titanium? Non-reactive, very light but strong metal. Takes some time to get used to machining, but slow speeds and small cuts work fine with regular equipment. Pondered by a former Production Engineer from a pulp and paper mill where many of the pumps, vessels and some piping in the chlorine dioxide generating plant were titanium.

[Burgerbob]

Yes, Giddings and perhaps Houser make pieces in titanium.

[BrassSection]

Giddings titanium is confirmed, expensive for my tastes, but comparing SS to titanium prices not bad. Back in the day a 317 stainless steel half inch ball valve was about $200. Titanium valve was $1500, but it lasted ten years vs the SS valves lasting 4 hours!

[muschem]

Yes, Giddings and perhaps Houser make pieces in titanium.

I don't believe Houser will do solid titanium. They do have a titanium/ceramic coating that they can apply to their stainless steel parts.

Giddings used to advertise custom duplication work, but I haven't been able to get a response from them regarding custom titanium components, so maybe that isn't something they do anymore?

It would be interesting to try a titanium rim or even a full titanium piece, but personally, I'd want something with dimensions I know work for me. An exotic material in an odd size/shape isn't very compelling.

[harrisonreed]

Giddings titanium is confirmed, expensive for my tastes, but comparing SS to titanium prices not bad. Back in the day a 317 stainless steel half inch ball valve was about $200. Titanium valve was $1500, but it lasted ten years vs the SS valves lasting 4 hours!

Yeah but that's like saying that under normal use the stainless mouthpiece on a human face will last 400 years vs 1 million years for titanium. It shouldn't make any difference in terms of durability as far as the player is concerned, unless they are throwing the mouthpiece into concrete. If it really costs that much more, I'm not sure you're getting anything you actually need for that money.

[BrassSection]

My point wasn’t durability, but price. Titanium MP around twice the price of SS, not bad compared to valve example was what surprised me.

[harrisonreed]

Ahh, yeah. Is the sound or feel drastically different? Even for twice the cost (instead of 7x cost) I don't really get it.

Why are people drawn to these weird materials in the first place?

[RustBeltBass]

For a bunch of reasons. In case of steel, allergies, skin irritations were a reason for some to try the different alternatives to brass out there.

One bass trombonist with his own signature model wrote to me saying that for him the material makes a big difference on his skin in heavy playing weeks with 13 services in the pit.

[Posaunus]

For what it's worth, titanium is about 57% as dense (4.51 g/cm3) as 304 or 316 stainless steel (~7.9g/cm3) - and 52% as dense as typical brass (~8.65 g/cm3).
I have a Giddings & Webster titanium mouthpiece that was custom-made for a now-deceased friend. It is appreciably lighter than the Giddings stainless steel near-equivalent or than my brass mouthpieces. And feels good on my face!

[Matt K]

Ahh, yeah. Is the sound or feel drastically different? Even for twice the cost (instead of 7x cost) I don't really get it.

Why are people drawn to these weird materials in the first place?

Yes, both feel and sound. Like mentioned, the feel is different both with regards to how slippery each are, but also how it vibrates. They both give different feedback even when otherwise identical.

I had a GW Chinook (somewhat similar to schilke 60) threaded for Elliott rims and even when the rim is the same, the underparts both play noticeably differently. Compared to steel, I have a preference for titanium. But I don’t really like either… thought they’re much larger than I normally play. And quite different than any brass design I’ve played. If I could get my hands on a Titanium Harry Watters, I’d snap it up in a heartbeat but I’m not going to pay $700 for an experiment like that. That’s a bridge too far even for me

[tbonesullivan]

Why are people drawn to these weird materials in the first place?

I remember a thread about someone wanting a stainless steel or titanium bell, and one of the responders had experience with motorcycle exhausts, and the answer is "Because it's TITANIUM Baby!". However they also said that what makes it great for exhausts doesn't really track to trombone playing.

These are somewhat "exotic" materials, and there is a market for them, for whatever reason. Titanium may be "like stainless but weighs less" or something. Definitely a lot of "cool factor" and other things involved, especially now that you can get special coatings on a lot of things that make them even harder.

Sorry but I'll keep my Silver plated Brass.

[Matt K]

A titanium bell as opposted to a brass one might be a good compromise on lightness while still being metal, as opposed to something like carbon fiber.t Downside is you can't solder it but... details...

[mikerspencer]

AR Resonance have a wide selection of esoteric material they use for mouthpieces: https://www.arresonance.com/materials (including ooooo titanium).

My guess is brass was used initially because it's easy to machine.

I've played Bach mouthpieces for years but started playing a Giddings Harry Watters on a Rath R1 last year. The steel is less sticky than plated brass, but I changed so much at the same time () it's difficult to narrow down other pros and cons.

[RustBeltBass]

My guess is brass was used initially because it's easy to machine.

That’s exactly what Giddings is saying.

[Matt K]

External shape aside, the Harry Watters appears to be the closest Giddings piece to a traditional design that I've seen. Everything else tends to run a bit deeper and have a fairly large throat, comparatively.

[RustBeltBass]

What I do not yet understand is this:

On their website the description of the Sonny Ausman model reads as follows:” ….truly classic design based on a Bach NY 5G.“

The stats are: 1.008 0.264

I am not a tenor player and can not judge if the measurements are the same as an old 5G or not. But I just find it hard to believe that a design SO different from a traditional design, combined with a very different material can result in something even remotely close to the NY characteristics. Mr. Ausman sounded phenomenal and he must have been happy with it, but it confuses me as to their approach to mouthpiece design.