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This is not about buzzing or not buzzing. Some players I know can not buzz anyway at all, free buzzing or mpc buzzing does not work at all. But they can play. (I do wonder about that, theory anybody?) I can free buzz, mpc buzz, in 4 octaves (not to brag just to tell how it is) I can not feel any difference betwen free or mpc buzzing and playing.

Now to the question.

If I free buzz an F on the staff it feels allright. If I buzz the same tone on the mpc it feels the same to me.
If I again buzz the F in the mpc and while keeping the buzz and take the mpc of my lips the buzz stops.
If I play the F on any of my horns I do recognise the buzz as the same as free or mpc buzzing.
If I take the mpc out of the horn while keeping the F, the sound stops as soon as the mpc comes out of the horn.

I can "fake" the conections between free buzzing and mpc buzzing, between mpc buzzing and playing and the other way, by changing the lip apperture or tension in my lips. Free buzzing is more tight, mpc buzz little less and playing the horn is less tension/apperture and kess resistance.

Thinking about it, to me it is completely logic.

If I try to buzz the same way as I play the horn I get a horrible buzz.

Can of worms?

Lol the only question in that post is "can of worms?"

Everything else is observations. For what it's worth, that all lines up with my experiences.

And to answer the question, "yes".

You might be interested in this video on the topic

Rusty wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:15 am You might be interested in this video on the topic

Certainly some things worth thinking about. And a very nice player!

These discussions often make the weight lifting analogy about buzzing, but the OP talks briefly about moving between free buzz, mp buzz and the horn and back. The analogy for this might be cross training.

Of course it is not replicating what one does to perform on the instrument, but it does challenge a player to use the same muscles with a high degree of control. That seems to be beneficial for some players. Specificity of training is important in any physical activity, but varying stimuli also is important to foster growth.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:56 am

If I free buzz an F on the staff it feels allright. If I buzz the same tone on the mpc it feels the same to me.
If I again buzz the F in the mpc and while keeping the buzz and take the mpc of my lips the buzz stops.
If I play the F on any of my horns I do recognise the buzz as the same as free or mpc buzzing.
If I take the mpc out of the horn while keeping the F, the sound stops as soon as the mpc comes out of the horn.

I just tried your experiment.

If I freebuzz first I can add mouthpiece or mouthpiece plus horn without trouble.

If I play first, then I get results similar to yours. The buzz drops in pitch around a tritone and fades in volume, or wants to quit. The effect is larger if the horn is helping. I can maintain the buzz, but it takes a conscious effort. I think that's what you were getting at. Simply pulling off makes the buzz stop unless I force it to continue.

That was for the F in the staff that you mentioned. I tried the F above that, F above middle C. The effect is still there but much less strong. So I went up another octave, and now the effect is barely there, the difference becomes small.

The reason this topic can often be a "can of worms" is because it mostly gets treated subjectively. There are ways you can look at buzzing (both free and mouthpiece) a little more empirically. Some logical thinking might also provide some insights.

I think we all recognize that free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing are different from playing the instrument. Advocates for those practice methods probably are trying to exploit this difference while opponents point out that you spend your time practicing something that doesn't specifically match how you would normally play.

It's also worth mentioning that there are many different ways to buzz, from the very loose horse sneeze sound to a very tight and rolled in elephant sort of sound. Some of those ways might help, but some might actually get in the way of normal playing. For a lot of players free buzzing (what I consider to be) correctly can be very similar to the lip position of normal playing, but for others (myself included) it isn't. Buzzing into and out of the instrument or mouthpiece may or may not be helpful.

I prefer to use free buzzing primarily as a strength building exercise, specifically to work the muscles at and just under the mouth corners and to help keep the chin flat. For some students I also have them free buzz into the instrument, but that can depend on the player's embouchure type, where they're coming from and what they want to work on.

For mouthpiece buzzing there are also different ways to approach it. You could buzz as loud as you can and move as much air past the lips as is possible, or you could compress your embouchure formation very tight and buzz very softly (plus everything in between) We should also recognize that a mouthpiece has a fundamental pitch and overtone series, similar to the horn, but it's very small and we basically buzz below it.

I think one of the reasons mouthpiece buzzing is recommended is because it trains the student to get their ear, air, and embouchure coordinated without having to worry about slide technique. It is true, however, that it's physically different than playing the instrument so proceed with caution. Personally, I don't rely much on mouthpiece buzzing any longer for my own playing or teaching. If my student needs ear training practice I usually do singing. To move more air I use breathing exercises away from the instrument or while not actually playing the instrument. There are usually other ways to help students get their embouchures focused that I prefer, although it's hard to generalize because everyone's different.

That said, I will sometimes use mouthpiece buzzing as a quick intermediary procedure to move from working on something away from the instrument to playing on the instrument. It also can give a student an immediate (but probably not very long-term) improvement that makes for a good boost in confidence. I like to think that it's helpful for beginners, at least for teaching how to get their first sounds, but the evidence suggests it's not necessarily helpful long term.

Yes Rusty, Dion Tucker has a very good point.

Timothy, I can free buzz and add mpc and mpc+horn and get a sound. IF I change the lip resistance. The differnce is so small that it can be difficult to notice, But it is there. Playing first and pull ot the mpc does not result in a dropp, it is no sound but air flow. Yes I can maintain the buzz by change the lip tension, more tension.
Mpc buzz takes more lip tension than the horn, free buzz takes even more tension.

It may be good for many players to freebuzz. But for some maybe not so good. Because the difference is so small so the mbouchure may get confused. As said, you can buzz in different ways. I find that when I dont buzz before I play the horn, but just start playing I get my sound direct, when I buzz it takes a little longer.

Since most of us can free buzz in different ways, the result may be that some ways are good and some other ways not so good. I have for some time been hesitant about buzzing. I have now jus to test my self been buzz every day, First singing a G on the staf, because that is a good start tone for my voise, the sing a short prase, the I free buzz from the same G, the mpc buzz from the same G addibg some melody, the pla the same on the horn. The way I buzz I connect from horn to mpc buzz and to free buzz, just blow faster going from horn to mpc, and blowinf faster going from the mpc to the free buzzing. The opposite way works to, from free buzzing to mpc buzzing I blow slower, from mpc buzzing to horn I also blow slower. For me that works. I hav done this for two months and are going to do it for some time. I do not think it is a question on using different muscles this way, just different speed of air.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:56 am
If I try to buzz the same way as I play the horn I get a horrible buzz.

Can of worms?

No, it should sound more like bees, not worms..

Basbasun wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:59 am Since most of us can free buzz in different ways, the result may be that some ways are good and some other ways not so good. I have for some time been hesitant about buzzing. I have now jus to test my self been buzz every day, First singing a G on the staf, because that is a good start tone for my voise, the sing a short prase, the I free buzz from the same G, the mpc buzz from the same G addibg some melody, the pla the same on the horn. The way I buzz I connect from horn to mpc buzz and to free buzz, just blow faster going from horn to mpc, and blowinf faster going from the mpc to the free buzzing. The opposite way works to, from free buzzing to mpc buzzing I blow slower, from mpc buzzing to horn I also blow slower. For me that works. I hav done this for two months and are going to do it for some time. I do not think it is a question on using different muscles this way, just different speed of air.

Does it help or improve your playing in some aspect after this two months?
I’m a little up and down with my own buzzing. Some days I do it, sometimes not. Doesn’t feel so much changes either way. Maybe I do it totally wrong also. Easy to get confused with so many methods out there.

Leif

Every day i work on getting my high freebuzz into the piece. This has been going on for months, as I think I am a slow learner. But what else is there to do? Occasionally it gets a little better, but every day i do learn something about it even if improvement does not show up. The intriguing thing is the high freebuzz seems effortless, but on the piece it's more work. I'd like to have more effortlessness happening. It may turn out that this is a dead end, but the path must be taken...

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:30 am

Basbasun wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:59 am Since most of us can free buzz in different ways, the result may be that some ways are good and some other ways not so good. I have for some time been hesitant about buzzing. I have now jus to test my self been buzz every day, First singing a G on the staf, because that is a good start tone for my voise, the sing a short prase, the I free buzz from the same G, the mpc buzz from the same G addibg some melody, the pla the same on the horn. The way I buzz I connect from horn to mpc buzz and to free buzz, just blow faster going from horn to mpc, and blowinf faster going from the mpc to the free buzzing. The opposite way works to, from free buzzing to mpc buzzing I blow slower, from mpc buzzing to horn I also blow slower. For me that works. I hav done this for two months and are going to do it for some time. I do not think it is a question on using different muscles this way, just different speed of air.

Does it help or improve your playing in some aspect after this two months?
I’m a little up and down with my own buzzing. Some days I do it, sometimes not. Doesn’t feel so much changes either way. Maybe I do it totally wrong also. Easy to get confused with so many methods out there.

Leif

Yes Leif, there are so many methods out there. Actually I don´t think I improved anything in my trombone playing, well I do singing is very good for me at least. But the buzzing does not make anything vorse either. If I don´t have the horn near I do think buzzing can be a nice warm up, it is not better than blowing the horn, but good enough if you don´t have the horn handy. Leif, the way you sound tell me that your are doing allright! If you like to buzz do, if you don´t feel like it don´t. Sometimes we do things because someone told us to do so, sometimes we should try to stop doing things we are not sure about, just to see what happens. I keep buzzing anyway to see what happens, it only takes 3-4 minutes.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:36 am Every day i work on getting my high freebuzz into the piece. This has been going on for months, as I think I am a slow learner. But what else is there to do? Occasionally it gets a little better, but every day i do learn something about it even if improvement does not show up. The intriguing thing is the high freebuzz seems effortless, but on the piece it's more work. I'd like to have more effortlessness happening. It may turn out that this is a dead end, but the path must be taken...

Maybe you should try to find out what you do different, freebuzzing/playing the horn. Angle? Blowing to fast air?
The free buzz takes a lot more aire than the you need in the haorn. Maybe you should try blowing less air?

I have developed my chops to the point where I can free-buzz a little, then free-buzz into the mpc and "play" a chorus of a song on the mpc. The trick for me on mpc-buzzing is to hold it very lightly against my chops and keep the buzz very, very soft. I don't want a hard mcp-buzz. It sounds nasty and is difficult for me to control. This has become a permanent part of my morning warm-up routine. The idea is to get the juices flowing but not tire out the muscles, so a little bit goes a long way for me.

My warm-up routine evolves as I evolve, but the basics remain constant: air flow, blood flow, tone, articulation, flexibility, musicality.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:05 am ...

Maybe you should try ...

Yep, all that. What I expect a successful path will be (if it will be) is a kind of compromise where the freebuzz alters a bit and the on-piece buzz alters a bit till suddenly they are close enough to cross over. And if it never happens? No loss.

We endlessly return to this topic of free buzzing as if there were anything more to mine from it and yet leave undebated many other off-the-trombone activities that are similarly useful...

• Free Gasping. A vigorous inhale, as if you've seen a ghost, to build breathing muscles

• Free Coughing. Similar, but for development of the rapid exhalation needed for sforzandi

• Eye Darts. The motion of glancing from the music stand, to the conductor, and back again. The more furtive you look, the better.

• Mouth whacks. You hold a baseball in your right hand and rapidly move it from your mouth to arms-length and back. To improve quick first-to-sixth position slide motions. The ideal is do it without injuring yourself.

• Valve Lunges. This is like the Mouth Whack but you transfer the baseball to the left hand before extending the right hand as if emptying the spit valve.

• Toe Clamps. Quickly pressing left and right toes together and releasing them. For mid-passage spit valve clearing when there isn't time to reach with the hand.

I'm sure everyone is already doing these maneuvers while at their day job, away from the horn, and yet we never discuss their merits,

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:39 am

Basbasun wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:05 am ...

Maybe you should try ...

Yep, all that. What I expect a successful path will be (if it will be) is a kind of compromise where the freebuzz alters a bit and the on-piece buzz alters a bit till suddenly they are close enough to cross over. And if it never happens? No loss.

Sometimes I freebuzz and add the mpc just adjusting the airflow, slowing it down a bit, keping the mpc buzz putting the mpc in the horn while adjusting the airflow, keeping the buzz. Actually that toke some time for me to find that out. Is it an important cability? No, and yes. As we know there are many buzzer among us, and many questions. It is not really important to be able to do the cross over, to me the often made statement: it´s different muscles, or the lenght of the tubing, or the absent of the standing wave or what ever becomes invalid. When I make the crossover, the muscles used are the same, the air flow is different. The tube lenght has nothing to do with it.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:27 am We endlessly return to this topic of free buzzing as if there were anything more to mine from it and yet leave undebated many other off-the-trombone activities that are similarly useful...

• Free Gasping. A vigorous inhale, as if you've seen a ghost, to build breathing muscles

• Free Coughing. Similar, but for development of the rapid exhalation needed for sforzandi

• Eye Darts. The motion of glancing from the music stand, to the conductor, and back again. The more furtive you look, the better.

• Mouth whacks. You hold a baseball in your right hand and rapidly move it from your mouth to arms-length and back. To improve quick first-to-sixth position slide motions. The ideal is do it without injuring yourself.

• Valve Lunges. This is like the Mouth Whack but you transfer the baseball to the left hand before extending the right hand as if emptying the spit valve.

• Toe Clamps. Quickly pressing left and right toes together and releasing them. For mid-passage spit valve clearing when there isn't time to reach with the hand.

I'm sure everyone is already doing these maneuvers while at their day job, away from the horn, and yet we never discuss their merits,

I am sorry if the subject is a problem for you Robert. My advice: do not read threads that give you a bad stomach. I wish you a good and better coming year!

Hi Basbasun,

Opening this topic and sharing your observations are absolutely great and hopefully part of what brings this forum forward.
Given that the introduction of buzzing as a practice tool has changed the game when it comes to trombone pedagogy, I think every serious conversation about its purposes (or, if you are skeptical of it, it’s limits) is meaningful.

Here comes a simple question back, if you do not mind.
What is it exactly that you hope to achieve by buzzing and free buzzing ? Getting better obviously, but more specifically, what do you hope it does to your playing that is beneficial ?

Another topic that seems to create division and anger.
I'm not trying to fuel the flames on this but I feel I should echo the statement that we are all different. Dave Wilken is an upstream player, so he will never have a freebuzz that resembles his playing setup... he could elaborate on that if he wants. I have a downstream setup that allows me to freebuzz easily and transition to and from mouthpiece and instrument. That doesn't make me a better of worse person than Dave, just different.
The issues in continuing a sound whilst transitioning between mouthpiece and instrument are simply those of managing tiny changes of resistance caused by the mouthpiece and instrument being added or removed....the more you do the transitions, the easier they get.... if you are an easy freebuzzer and you want to be able to do that it will improve. Your playing setup and freebuzzing setup have to be essentially the same... mine is.
It's not a big deal. You never make money doing it.

Chris

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:53 pm Hi Basbasun,

Opening this topic and sharing your observations are absolutely great and hopefully part of what brings this forum forward.
Given that the introduction of buzzing as a practice tool has changed the game when it comes to trombone pedagogy, I think every serious conversation about its purposes (or, if you are skeptical of it, it’s limits) is meaningful.

Here comes a simple question back, if you do not mind.
What is it exactly that you hope to achieve by buzzing and free buzzing ? Getting better obviously, but more specifically, what do you hope it does to your playing that is beneficial ?

Hi RustBeltBass.

Actually, what Chris said.

I don´t have much hope of getting better, I do have a long history of playing profesionally and teaching.
The tool free buzzing give me a chance to play with my chops, away from the horn.
The mpc buzzing is a transite to the horn, to play things without the the help of the horn using just my ear and chops. Sometimes it is very handy to take out the mpc and buzz someting that I don´t really get how to play, often you get another idea of it, and it gets easier.
One of my first teacher taught me to buzz ( 1959-60) I did buzz but really did not get much from it. Latter I found that the buzzing could be done in another way that is closer to what I do on the horn. (That does depend on what you are doing on the horn, there are lots of way to skinn a cat, we don´t play the same way, there are many "right" ways.) I was against buzz for a couple of years, I found out why, I was doing I was pressing the lips together, that did not work for me, that is not what I do now. The important thing is the air flow.

I've stayed out of this because I haven't buzzed in a long time. I never got any benefit from it. Freebuzzing, yes, but only recently.

I've found that with my newfound... ability? that buzzing now actually works. In my previous state, buzzing was only a detriment. This is why I don't usually recommend it to students.

The way most people try to buzz is a detriment.
There is a good way that helps everything.

I have tried many times to get into mouthpiece buzzing and it hasn't really improved anything for me. When I learned freebuzzing from Doug - in that specific way - it helps.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:44 pm I've stayed out of this because I haven't buzzed in a long time. I never got any benefit from it. Freebuzzing, yes, but only recently.

I've found that with my newfound... ability? that buzzing now actually works. In my previous state, buzzing was only a detriment. This is why I don't usually recommend it to students.

And Basbasun wrote:

I was against buzz for a couple of years, I found out why, I was doing I was pressing the lips together, that did not work for me, that is not what I do now. The important thing is the air flow.

Both very close to my own experience.