Use of plug-in valve

[hyperbolica]

For those with plug in valves, including yamaha 622 / 822, Kanstul plug ins and custom plug-ins, and maybe even tenor players with convertible / modular horns with straight and valve neck pipes:

How often do you swap in/out a valve? Do you prefer to use one configuration or the other? Does your horn sit in one state most of the time?

I'm contemplating a plug in for a single bass, but I fear I wouldn't remove the plug in, and should just get a dependent instead.

What do you think?

[GabrielRice]

Having one valve or two makes for very different response and feedback to the player, wherever the second valve is.

I haven't gone the route of a plug-in valve, but I do have a single Shires rotary valve. If I swap that out for the double TruBores I usually play, the whole instrument balances differently, and I don't mean physically. It was a bit more similar when I used to switch it for a dependent rotary valve section, but still significantly different.

If you want the option of a single valve instrument, the best way by far, IMO, is to play an instrument that is designed around a single valve. In the case of modular makers like Shires, Rath, Edwards, you can do that and a lot of what you end up with will probably be the same or similar, but dollars to doughnuts most people who do will make a slightly different choice of bell, at least.

I think in all the time Doug Yeo and I were both in Boston, I saw him play exactly once with the 2nd valve of his Yamaha removed.

[Thrawn22]

I used the Yeo bass my school had. I took the valve off and thought the horn played better. I would use a single valve bass bone if i didn't have to play B naturals all the time in Tom Kubis charts.

But i agree the odds of you actually using a bass with plugin valves as a single is few and far between. I view things like this and modular horns in general as a way to make maintenance and changing out of parts easier.

[hyperbolica]

I think in all the time Doug Yeo and I were both in Boston, I saw him play exactly once with the 2nd valve of his Yamaha removed.

Yeah, that's the kind of info I'm looking for.

I don't care so much whether it's a single horn with multiple options or separate horns, I would expect some kind of difference (there'd be no point to making a change if there were no difference).

[tbonesullivan]

I think it really depends on how much weight means to you, and how much you like playing with a single valve bass.

The instrument definitely will resonate different with less mass. My bass trombone has ab Eb and D crook for the Dependent valve, and even that affects the feel significantly.

If I had a Yeo Bass, and the repertoire didn't really require any second valve, I'd probably take it off. Though, I do admit it is kinda gimmicky.

Edwards does still offer a single valve converter for their dual independent thayer basses, so there must be some type of market for them.

[jchiang9]

I used to have a bass that I had a single and double valve section for (was a custom mostly Bach horn). I mostly used the horn with both valves. But the single valve section came out in big band when I could do a whole show with it easily. Most the time both valves were on because I never knew what might come up on a gig or rehearsal.

Also had a Shires large tenor that I absolutely loved playing with the straight neckpipe. But again, never knew what might come up so the valve stayed on most the time.

[Burgerbob]

I think it basically boils down to the usual thoughts... When can you get away with a single?

For me, that's just not often enough to justify having a single, or even a single with a slot-in. And I've owned some really, really great singles.

[Basbasun]

I have both singel and two valve bass. I use a lot more singel.

[brtnats]

I take my D valve off if I’m not going to need it for a while. That usually means a set-repertoire tour. I think the horn responds faster as a single, it’s got a good low C, and it’s a lot of fun to play that way. There absolutely is a difference; you can feel it. I’m not convinced the audience can hear it.

If I don’t know what’s coming, or I’m playing a really varied repertoire, I leave the D valve on.

[Basbasun]

One problem with plug-in valves is that the horn feel very different when the second valve is pluged in. Sometimes it is a better horn (for you) as a singel, it could also be the other way around. I believe the best double valve horns are the ones that are stationary. Find a good singel if you do like singels, also find a good double. If you don´t know what music you are called for, bring the double valve. If you can only afford one you may be better of with a double valve. ( Unless you are so good at false tones that nobody can distinguish your false low C/B from doublevalve low C/B.)

[elmsandr]

Not a plug-in, but I have two valve sections; a single and a double. I try to always start with the single. Nobody's paying me, and I don't care about missing some licks on a first read through... That said, it seems like most every concert cycle I was doing something that forced me to bring the double.

When I have had "important" gigs and/or anything paying... the double comes first and I scale back if I can.

Still need to build the plug-in for two of the single basses in the basement. I have most the parts for one of them, apparently just lack the determination to do it.
Andy

[harrisonreed]

I'm wondering how much of a PITA it is to reattach the linkage for a plug in valve. Or is it some sort of leather strap, usually?

Also, that's funny about the discussion about weight and Doug Yeo not scaling back to only one valve except maybe once -- he is something of a champion of the lightest bass trombone possible. I'm not a bass player, but if the point of playing bass is being able to play low effortlessly, and if you want a consistent blow every time you pick up your horn .... Why would you ever want only one valve? Too many variables.

I would think the weight savings wouldn't be worth:
A) the loss of versatility
B) having to learn the response of a different instrument
C) having to justify to your colleagues that, no you're not just trying to be cool, contrarian, etc, and that the change in weight and response is something you can really feel and matters to you and the music the whole group is trying to convey to the audience ... Without coming across as a complete pretentious tool... When they ask you if you missed a note because you're not playing on the horn you usually play...

[elmsandr]

Check the video on the Yamaha for how to remove their valve, they added a little dummy hook for the spring to make the linkage easy to remove. Most that I have seen... are not that easy. Some other clever ones out there, but a lot are a minor pain with a tool required.

As for the rest of that... I find most of the singles I play (My 45, 50, and a Holton bell that fits the same valves from the 45) generally play easier as singles. I'm more likely to not miss notes on the singles. The horns just respond better. They don't feel like "different" instruments as much as like better versions of the same instrument.

Cheers,
Andy

[hyperbolica]

I would think the weight savings wouldn't be worth:
...

One day....

...you and a lot of other people are gonna get old. And you're going to understand a lot of things that confused you before.

In your 30's you don't recover from a hangover like you did when you were 21.
In your 40's you don't recover from a cut like you did when you were 31.
In your 50's you don't recover from a day of gardening like you did when you were 41
In your 60's you can't hold an 8 pound instrument with a 2 finger vulcan grip all day like you could when you were 51.

Yeo credits the carbon fiber parts for extending his playing years and/or minimizing injury. That's what it's really all about. I don't want to tote a bunch of weight I don't need to. Just weighing the benefits of a removable valve vs a second horn.

So far and Eb slide and reading up an octave seem like the best options.

[harrisonreed]

...but I don't play bass...

Also, yes, it seems that Doug Yeo, at least, sought out weight savings in other areas, away from the rotors. They must've been important enough for him to not mess with. Especially since being able to go to single rotor only was a selling point of that model.

FWIW, I'm not attacking you, OP. It's just from my perspective, since I even have a valve on my alto and small bore, I'd probably be loathe to give up my second valve if I played bass. Seems too handy.

Adding one to tenor intrigues me. Especially if it was dependant and set up as a kind of split bar system. I would hardly need to use it, but for certain pieces it would be great to have.

[hyperbolica]

If I had an alto it would not have a valve. You don't play alto to play in that range. My 500 bore doesn't have a valve. I love my 79h, somehow I don't like 78hs the same way. And I just don't have the air to drive a bass bone the way I drive a tenor. I'm very conflicted about bass, and I do what I can to avoid sounding bad on it, which is too easy to do, especially for a dabbler.

[harrisonreed]

If I had an alto it would not have a valve. You don't play alto to play in that range. My 500 bore doesn't have a valve. I love my 79h, somehow I don't like 78hs the same way. And I just don't have the air to drive a bass bone the way I drive a tenor. I'm very conflicted about bass, and I do what I can to avoid sounding bad on it, which is too easy to do, especially for a dabbler.

Only one of the things it's there for, but ok. Maybe most people don't play alto in that range, but you can't speak for everyone on that. Same for small bore.

Rips, trills, and other effects with the valve make it worth it, even on small bore tenor.

[Burgerbob]

And I just don't have the air to drive a bass bone the way I drive a tenor. I'm very conflicted about bass, and I do what I can to avoid sounding bad on it, which is too easy to do, especially for a dabbler.

then why play bass? Honest question, most of your posts make it seem like you don't like the instrument or playing it.

[hyperbolica]

then why play bass? Honest question, most of your posts make it seem like you don't like the instrument or playing it.

Yeah, I fight it. Bass for me has always been the instrument for people who can't hack tenor. I know a lot of people will disagree with that, but it was just how I felt about it.

Sometimes it's fun, but usually I just don't like it. I can't be as musical on bass as on tenor. Phrasing options are comparatively limited. You mostly get to play big potato root-of-the-chord type notes rather than melody or harmony/countermelody. It's like pushing a truck uphill in the mud. Too much weight, too much air, etc, etc. I didn't start it until I was 50 years old, when lung capacity isn't peak. So I keep looking for that perfect big tenor that will play a nice low B, like a double valve Holton 159, which of course doesn't exist. It's a stupid note to judge a horn on, but it's often the weakest link.

Plus, I like a challenge, and I remember a time when I could play pedal C on my 88h with a 5g. I can't do that on bass now, and that bothers me a little, so I keep trying and practicing.

I own a bass because I have (had) a group that needed someone on that part, and without it we were limited to less interesting music. Other people playing the part did it badly. Not that I do a great job, but at least I don't hurt anyone's feelings when I cuss out the bass player now.

And playing bass has opened some opportunities I wouldn't have had on tenor. There is a lack of bass players in this area, and I've had more calls since coming out the closet with bass. It's definitely a trade off, and I'm not afraid of a little adversity.

I also play euph and tuba mostly for my own entertainment but my 79h and 88h are the instruments I really love, and bass is an extension of all that.

So yes, I have this love/hate relationship with the bass trombone. I keep at it because I seem to think I can improve or find a happy medium for some reason. Looking for tweener hardware is part of it. Practice is obviously another, and cross training on low euph and tuba is another. The removable valve is part of the hardware quest to bridge tenor and bass.

When I arrange stuff for our quartet, I make sure there is at least an interesting bass part. If I have to play that blasted thing, there had better at least be some reward in it. So I tend not to write too low, give myself a lot of moving lines, like electric bass parts for pop arrangements or counter melody in classical.

[imsevimse]

then why play bass? Honest question, most of your posts make it seem like you don't like the instrument or playing it.

Yeah, I fight it. Bass for me has always been the instrument for people who can't hack tenor. I know a lot of people will disagree with that, but it was just how I felt about it.

Most of the good bass trombone players I know started on tenor and once were or still are good tenor players. There are a couple of guys who play bass exclusively and in that case I can not tell.

/Tom

[GabrielRice]

Sorry to say, it seems like the problem is your attitude about it more than the equipment.

Bass trombone is hard. In many ways harder than tenor, so please do your best to disabuse yourself of the notion that it's for tenor players who couldn't hack it. That's just not true.

I looked at your equipment list on your profile. You say you love your Elkhart Conn tenors. If that Kanstul 1662i is still your bass trombone, I gotta say I never thought that was comparable to a great Conn. I know they tried to convince us it was...but it's not.

My recommendation to you is to look for a nice dependent Elkhart Conn - maybe a 62H, maybe a 73H. Get a mouthpiece from Doug Elliott with the right shank. And then convince yourself you love it and practice to make the low B better.

[hyperbolica]

I don't live somewhere with a library of hard to find 60 year old instruments handy. Trial and error is a long cycle. The last thing I need is encouragement to buy more horns. I had a 50b2 a few years back that maybe I should have kept, but didn't know it at the time.

Anyway my attitude is fine. I am in any case realistic about the conflict. Thanks for trying to help, I think have what I came for.

[harrisonreed]

Bass trombone is hard. In many ways harder than tenor, so please do your best to disabuse yourself of the notion that it's for tenor players who couldn't hack it. That's just not true.

... Except when it is true ...

James Markey and Charles Vernon aside. And the pedagogues who have to teach bass trombone but are really tenor players.

I don't know many full time bass trombonists who are stressing about playing Zarathustra...

[GabrielRice]

Let's not make this a pissing contest. Try playing Fountains or the Spear Motive. And most of the times I've played Petroushka my batting average on the muted lick up to high C and back down is better than the tenor players to my right.

[harrisonreed]

No I don't play bass and don't pretend to. It might as well be a different instrument, like alto. So from my perspective I find it interesting how the search on tenor is for the best feedback and the best compression, on alto it's got to do with finding the right mouthpiece to fit the leadpipe and line the partials up, and on bass it's got more to do with weight. Players are worried about different stuff.

[CalgaryTbone]

I do have an old 72H with a plug-in 2nd valve. I don't remove the 2nd valve often, but I also don't play the horn often. I ended up with it because I found a great eBay deal on a 72H, and an old friend on the previous list had some parts and made me a reasonably priced plug-in valve from parts he had around. For a good price, I ended up with a horn that works quite well as a doubler's instrument for the rare bass gig that might come my way. The main reasons for adding a removable 2nd valve would be wanting to preserve a classic instrument, or trying to save your arm from strain. Otherwise, I'd say just use a double valve, or have a backup single that you can use for saving your arm and maybe for lighter repertoire.

As far as what's harder, I've always taken the attitude that there are no hard or easy instruments. Each has it's own difficulties, and if one was somehow easier overall, then there would be more people that could play it well, so the competition for gigs reflect that. Everybody has certain nights at work that test them, though.

Jim Scott

[modelerdc]

Back in the day I had a Holton with the removable valve. had it modified so the you could operate the 2nd valve with the ring finger and had a D slide made. I work OK, but I noticed that it didn't seem to play as well on the 2nd valve as a regular Tr180. Also it made the horn seem tail heavy. It was a great advantage for players who learned on single triggers and who only used the second valve when really necessary.

One of my current horns is a Yamaha YBL 622, the Yeo model with removable valve. This horn plays well on the second valve and the balance with the valve on is good. the instrument is designed to make it easy to add or remove the valve.

Nonetheless I rarely take the valve off. Bass trombones are heavy and being 66, it takes less effort to play a single trigger. But each day I play exercises and etudes that use the double triggers, so I could play much of my practice session with the 2nd Valve removed, and then add it on for the music that requires it. But that would mean taking it on and off every day!

I've found that the better solution is to have a single trigger bell section. I have a Yamaha YBL 421G bell section that coupled with an extra Edwards slide I have plays great. I've rarely used this in the orchestra because in the last couple of years it's been a rare concert that doesn't require a double trigger.

It's wrong to assume that bass trombone players are the least capable players in the section. Often it's not true, most bass trombone players prefer the instrument and today the standard of playing is so high that there's not much room players on any part who can't cut it. Making unwarranted assumptions about the capabilities of your colleges is unjust and doesn't help you get along with others.

[Burgerbob]

Anyway my attitude is fine.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Bass trombone is a challenge, but it's only going to be worse if you convince yourself it's even harder.

[hyperbolica]

Ok, I didn't really intend to start something with my offhand comment, I just meant to show that I play bass out of necessity and for the increased opportunity. Attempting to diagnose people on the internet is something you'll probably grow out of, but can be a hard habit to break.

Brian Hecht of Atlanta Symph. gave a master class at ATW 2 or 3 years ago (so it's recorded in the ATW live casts) where he described his path to the pros. In college he wasn't cutting it as a tenor player, so his teacher advised him to switch to bass. He is obviously a big success as a bass player but would have been another nobody tenor player. If from that you infer that tenor players are better than bass players, that's on you, not me. People don't always take a direct path to their best talent. Can we please put that to rest?

The Kanstul was bought because of the weight issue, not because of any relation to the 62h. I've never played a 62h, so I couldn't compare. The other basses I've owned have been: Holton 181, Bach 50b2, Yamaha 613r, Benge 290, Duo Gravis, 72h, 70h, P24g, Olds S-20. Of those, the Bach and the P24g were the ones I should have kept.

I can skip the plug in valve by putting an Eb extension on a tweener horn with a bass mouthpiece, and have a horn that will do anything without being really dedicated to anything aside from blasting 3rd parts really loud. I'm not sure where the assumption comes from that we have to have a library of horns specifically tailored to every situation we might encounter. Most of us have to play on what we have.

[Finetales]

I'm not touching the rest of this with a 10-foot pole, but...

I'm not sure where the assumption comes from that we have to have a library of horns specifically tailored to every situation we might encounter.

We all play what we have and make it work in any way possible. Most of us can't afford to have more than one trombone of each common size. But if you can afford it, why would you not want to have the perfect equipment for every situation? Back when Sam Burtis was active on the forum, he would talk a lot about using the right tool for the job. Unless it's causing unnecessary financial problems, having more things in your toolbox is never a bad thing.

[hyperbolica]

... using the right tool for the job... having more things in your toolbox is never a bad thing.

I mostly agree in theory. I have small, medium, large and bass. But there's a limit to how fine you cut that, especially if you have limited practice time to keep it all going.

Another thing Sam said was "try everything, use what works." in practice I found Sam's approach overly simplistic. It assumed that you A) knew everything and B) had access to everything, and C) had enough time to figure out to what degree something worked or not.

Anyway, I'm going to try to stuff a tweener between large and bass and see if that gives me more of what I want.