TromboneChat

Might any among you identify Charlie Vernon’s tenor and bass equipment? I’m sure this is set out in detail on the internet somewhere, but y’all are, doubtless, a more reliable source.

He apparently has THE Mt. Vernon Bach 50 Bell mounted up to some Thayers.

I'm sure his mouthpiece philosophy is "grab 'n go," I think he has a different one in every video/picture I see of him.

His bass has been a Laskey 95D, unknown leadpipe (he does use one now), Edwards dual bore slide with no oversleeves, Shires axials, Bach New York 50 bell.

On the Brass Ark Website: "Charlie Vernon: MV42 seamed nickel silver, NY50 seamed nickel silver". If that is up to date, those are his leadpipes.

bassbone721 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:01 pm On the Brass Ark Website: "Charlie Vernon: MV42 seamed nickel silver, NY50 seamed nickel silver". If that is up to date, those are his leadpipes.

Usually those are listing all the pipes that those artists have bought, not necessarily that they are currently using them. My teacher is on that list and he doesn't use his.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:49 pm His bass has been a Laskey 95D, unknown leadpipe (he does use one now), Edwards dual bore slide with no oversleeves, Shires axials, Bach New York 50 bell.

Wow, talk about cherry-picking your favorites! I guess it means he knows what he likes, and that’s not a bad thing.

The Shires axial set that I know of was built for him while I worked there. It's custom in a couple of ways. First, the main bell brace had to be in a different place in order to avoid moving the diamond flange on his bell (more on that below), and second, he needed it to be as light in weight as possible, so it has no braces in the tuning slide loops, and the tuning slides themselves are shorter so there is much less overlapping tubing. We made a handslide for Charlie as well, but I think he prefers the Edwards because the tube walls are a bit thicker. And the shape of the crook is probably different as well.

The lightweight valve section is a feature of the George Curran model Shires as well. George happened to come by the factory when a valve section was completed for Charlie to try on a complete Shires bass trombone. George loved the quick response and broad sound, and asked for one for him to play as well. Later on it became part of his signature model.

I had the opportunity to play Charlie's favorite NY Bach 50 bell quite a bit when we had it in the shop. I've never played another bass trombone bell like it. It's extremely lightweight overall, and so thin at the end that you can run your finger lightly along the inside of the bead and see the movement on the other side. But it doesn't have the instability or nebulous pitch center that I often feel when equipment is that light; the pitch center is very clear and easy to play in the center of. Charlie calls it a magic bell, and it's hard to argue.

The reason they couldn't move the diamond flange is that that had been done once before when Charlie needed a new valve section, and it made the bell do very strange things. I had a lesson with him at that time, and the low C would vibrate so much that he couldn't play it in tune. He had to go back to his previous valve section and have the flange moved back. That valve section failed in the middle of a recital I was in the audience for at ETW. He had to go offstage to get it moving again. It was at that point that he asked us at Shires to build him a new custom valve section and sent us the bell so that it could be built to it.

Great info, Gabe!!

I'm having a valve section made right now with the Shires lightweight axial setup as a pattern- less bracing and shorter tuning slide legs. I had no idea it was a Charlie thing first.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:44 am Great info, Gabe!!

I'm having a valve section made right now with the Shires lightweight axial setup as a pattern- less bracing and shorter tuning slide legs. I had no idea it was a Charlie thing first.

I don't know if Steve Shires had ever done that before, but the first one I ever saw was the one built for Charlie to try. It was certainly Steve's idea. I still want to try a TruBore section built that way. But $$$.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:39 am I had the opportunity to play Charlie's favorite NY Bach 50 bell quite a bit when we had it in the shop. I've never played another bass trombone bell like it. It's extremely lightweight overall, and so thin at the end that you can run your finger lightly along the inside of the bead and see the movement on the other side.

Interesting.

Some years back Gary Greenhoe was on the OTJ, and he said in his opinion the formula for a good trombone was a thin light bell combined with a heavy weight slide.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:48 am I don't know if Steve Shires had ever done that before, but the first one I ever saw was the one built for Charlie to try. It was certainly Steve's idea. I still want to try a TruBore section built that way. But $$$.

I wonder how much of that was influenced by Friedman’s preferences for lighter equipment. I remember an article he wrote about ten years ago talking about his equipment choices and the need to create a ton of warmth and resonance because of their hall setup.

Main tuning slide?

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:06 pm Main tuning slide?

I believe he’s using a NY Bach tuning slide too. He told me that he traded a complete MV horn for the NY bell and tuning slide

The most recent Chicago Symphony Brass concert, Charlie's slide was most definitely NOT an Edwards.
There was no question that it was a Bach made slide. It was all yellow brass, and had no sleeves, but did have a soldered in pipe.
My understanding is Bach made some dual bore slides for him a few years ago.

Bach has also been experimenting with their Conn large tubes (the .580 ones) to make a Bach dual bore. They had made him a couple so far.

Anyone knows what he uses for his alto? He doesnt sound like the typical nasally alto

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:02 am Anyone knows what he uses for his alto? He doesnt sound like the typical nasally alto

The alto I've seen him play (a dozen years ago now) is a large bore Pfretzschner. .525-.547 I think.

I know that sounds strange, but the sound is more in the bell taper than the slide bore size. A friend of mine used to have one like it. It's a big alto sound, but definitely an alto.

I recently read this thread and I decided to try shortening the inside tuning slide legs on my rotor section that I felt played a bit tight in the valve register. I had my tech cut off 1 inch from each of the 4 legs and I have to say it does make a difference! It opened up the blow and made the sound closer to that of the open horn. It’s a pretty good bang for buck mod! I did get the impression you could go too far though, so I stopped at one inch.

Cheers
Mike Szabo

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:02 am Anyone knows what he uses for his alto? He doesnt sound like the typical nasally alto

That's because he knows how to play alto.

miketrombone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:40 am I recently read this thread and I decided to try shortening the inside tuning slide legs on my rotor section that I felt played a bit tight in the valve register. I had my tech cut off 1 inch from each of the 4 legs and I have to say it does make a difference! It opened up the blow and made the sound closer to that of the open horn. It’s a pretty good bang for buck mod! I did get the impression you could go too far though, so I stopped at one inch.

Cheers
Mike Szabo

Forgive me for being off-topic, but I just wanted to thank Mike for his youtube posts. You're one of the players (with Brian Hecht) that I try to emulate with my bass sound and technique (yes, I set my bar really, really high). Please keep those videos coming!

Elow wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:02 am Anyone knows what he uses for his alto? He doesnt sound like the typical nasally alto

Charlie has a .547 alto, I've played it before. It's a tank but he sounds great on it.

LeoInFL wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:53 am

miketrombone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:40 am I recently read this thread and I decided to try shortening the inside tuning slide legs on my rotor section that I felt played a bit tight in the valve register. I had my tech cut off 1 inch from each of the 4 legs and I have to say it does make a difference! It opened up the blow and made the sound closer to that of the open horn. It’s a pretty good bang for buck mod! I did get the impression you could go too far though, so I stopped at one inch.

Cheers
Mike Szabo

Forgive me for being off-topic, but I just wanted to thank Mike for his youtube posts. You're one of the players (with Brian Hecht) that I try to emulate with my bass sound and technique (yes, I set my bar really, really high). Please keep those videos coming!

Thanks for your kind words, Leo! The videos are just a side project I do when I have time (and am in shape) or we have something really meaty that I happen to get a good take for. I will put them up from time to time....very glad you like them and grateful that they are of benefit to you.

Cheers
Mike

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:14 am

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:39 am I had the opportunity to play Charlie's favorite NY Bach 50 bell quite a bit when we had it in the shop. I've never played another bass trombone bell like it. It's extremely lightweight overall, and so thin at the end that you can run your finger lightly along the inside of the bead and see the movement on the other side.

Interesting.

Some years back Gary Greenhoe was on the OTJ, and he said in his opinion the formula for a good trombone was a thin light bell combined with a heavy weight slide.

Allegedly works both ways. Light bell heavy slide, heavy bell light slide. It's all about balance.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:37 am Allegedly works both ways. Light bell heavy slide, heavy bell light slide. It's all about balance.

What about those going to carbon fiber slides AND bells? I guess that's just sort of a different balance?

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:47 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:37 am Allegedly works both ways. Light bell heavy slide, heavy bell light slide. It's all about balance.

What about those going to carbon fiber slides AND bells? I guess that's just sort of a different balance?

Not sure I understand.

Since were talking about it, his video playing fountains of rome was what made me want to play bass, so thank you

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:24 pm

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:47 am
What about those going to carbon fiber slides AND bells? I guess that's just sort of a different balance?

Not sure I understand.

I think he means, a full carbon setup is light everywhere.

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:47 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:37 am Allegedly works both ways. Light bell heavy slide, heavy bell light slide. It's all about balance.

What about those going to carbon fiber slides AND bells? I guess that's just sort of a different balance?

Apples and oranges, I think. Lightweight brass setups are not equivalent to carbon fiber, which is just literally lightweight.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:21 pm I think he means, a full carbon setup is light everywhere.

That is correct.

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:31 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:21 pm I think he means, a full carbon setup is light everywhere.

That is correct.

Ok. So are you stating that because the overall setup is "lightweight" that there's no need for the "heavy/light, light/heavy" setup?
Also keeping on the Charlie Vernon topic I first heard him play at Brevard Music Center when I was 17 years old. I had never heard anything like that in my life. Pines of Rome is still etched in my brain from 1978.

Charlie Vernon Story ….

I am and Olds Trombone enthusiast. Several years ago I purchased on the cheap an Olds S-23 Bass F-E Dual dependent with 10” bell. The Olds valves on this horn are considered small by today’s standards. As a result many complained that the horn played a bit stuffy. Back in the day Olds sold an optional slide extension for the E rotor to convert it to a D but it was a special order so only a few were made.

I wanted to have it cleaned, the valves opened up and an extension to the E Rotor made to make it into an F-D dual dependent. I took it to a well-known Chicago Metro area brass tech to have all of the work done.

After the work was completed, I went to pick up the horn. As I was checking out with the tech’s front desk person, the tech came rushing out of his work shop all excited to tell me about my horn. He told me that Carlie Vernon was a regular customer of his and that a few days prior Charlie was in the shop picking up some slides. He saw my Olds S-23 and wanted to try it. The tech said Charlie was really impressed with how my horn sounded and played.

If only I could make it sound like it did when Charlie was playing it!

The was your chance to get the work done for free. "Wait, you did what? I've never heard of this Charlie guy and now my horn is full of his germs!"

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:24 am
Ok. So are you stating that because the overall setup is "lightweight" that there's no need for the "heavy/light, light/heavy" setup?

Yes, sorry I should've been more clear. It's all lightweight so yeah, no need for one heavy/one light.

EOlson9 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:37 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:24 am
Ok. So are you stating that because the overall setup is "lightweight" that there's no need for the "heavy/light, light/heavy" setup?

Yes, sorry I should've been more clear. It's all lightweight so yeah, no need for one heavy/one light.

I still think it's all relative to the specific instrument. I cannot imagine that the slide and bell section are identical weights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMHAwGgfL4

I dont know what he play on this video but its one of the most fantastic chamber musicianship I ever have listen.

Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:09 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJMHAwGgfL4

I dont know what he play on this video but its one of the most fantastic chamber musicianship I ever have listen.

Leif

Bach with aftermarket Thayers... in any case, he does sound amazing there. Just listened to it all again yesterday.

Interesting that less overlapping tubes on the tuning slides make the valve section playing better. I didn‘t understand it till I read it. Once I had a Thein BvD valve section with no tuning slide at all on the second valve. With engaged valve it played terrific, open, free, easy and needed a lot of air. The low register was the best I‘ve ever played.

Comparing my Thein Universal valve section with the BvD valve section my section needs more work to get the double valve register sound good, open and free, but still focused.

Question: I could cut away up to 10 cm of the overlapping tuning slide of the second valve. Would that make it better?

I let make the cuts by Thein and it‘s amazing! The response is much better and the playbility in the valved register improved. Very happy to have done this

I have thought about doing this to my Throja bass trombone.

It has really long valve tuning slides which are almost completely in the way I tune them.
And while overall this is a great trombone, it does tend to be a little heavy and does not have the easiest/quickest response in the valve register.

I have often wondered why, even on double valve bass trombones that would never need an E pull, why the valve tuning slides are so long. I often attributed it to needing stability and weight in the valve section. I'm sure economy of design is also part of it, as usually it is a curved piece that attaches to the tuning slide, which would be harder to accomplish if that piece had to have a long straight portion on the end.

I can say that with my two basses, one is dependent and has both Eb and D crooks. The response and sound is quite a bit different with the smaller and far lighter Eb crook in, as the D crook has it's own 6 inch long tuning slide as a part of it.

meine wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:26 am I let make the cuts by Thein and it‘s amazing! The response is much better and the playbility in the valved register improved. Very happy to have done this

This is fascinating. Anyone else done this??

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:28 am

meine wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:26 am I let make the cuts by Thein and it‘s amazing! The response is much better and the playbility in the valved register improved. Very happy to have done this

This is fascinating. Anyone else done this??

Look up the thread of Aiden's aftermarket Thayer build by Benn. Shorter tuning slides from the beginning.

I've done similar to a couple of horns, though my current ones are mostly stock lengths. I often cut the F slide to make it easier to dump condensation, if nothing else.

*also remembered that I played a thayer section with two Gb tuning slides for a couple of years. Just used the shorter slide in the un modified horn.

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks!

Shorter tuning is not the same as keeping the long outer tubes and cutting only the inners.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:47 pm Shorter tuning is not the same as keeping the long outer tubes and cutting only the inners.

Right, but not easy to do a lot of A-B-A tests on those changes. I'd prefer to cut the outers and did that on one horn. Worked out great, but I did not feel the benefit was so great as to make it a priority for me to do again.

Theory I'd like to test:
-Shorter tuning slide legs
-Shorter tuning slide; that is the bow isn't now crazy long (like the F slide for a Bach Open wrap); keep it short and small
-No extra joints (that is, don't add another ferrule and straight length to get the desired shape). I'd like to minimize the total number of pieces in the attachment.

Of note, the wrap that achieves this... the F wrap on the Fuchs. Need to get this thing put together and playable. (not my hand, but this horn is currently downstairs)
Cheers,
Andy

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:47 pm Shorter tuning is not the same as keeping the long outer tubes and cutting only the inners.

That‘s the reason I let cut the outers. So there is no change in the airfloww in the inners.

So we've talked about his bass and alto equipment, but what about tenor? I don't think that's been covered in this thread yet.

Indiebass1993 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:58 pm So we've talked about his bass and alto equipment, but what about tenor? I don't think that's been covered in this thread yet.

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.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:28 am

meine wrote: ↑Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:26 am I let make the cuts by Thein and it‘s amazing! The response is much better and the playbility in the valved register improved. Very happy to have done this

This is fascinating. Anyone else done this??

I did it to the inner slides, thus enlarging the bore. Seems to help!

Re-reading all of this great forum. Has anyone tested the nickel lightweight slide vs a yellow brass slide without sleeves (lightweight yellow slide) it seems Charlie is on one end of that, where Mulcahy & Friedman are on the other.