TromboneChat

Recent events have brought "fringe" politics and beliefs among our ranks into the thunderdome (vis-a-vis Austin, TX).

We've all played with nuts. Either eccentric nuts, that simply taste weird/unique, or unstable nuts, who are hostile and unpalatable. Some of us are proud nuts- hopefully the former.

Is it up to us to draw a line for ourselves during a concert/gig? I know I have lines that I've defined for myself in the workplace (for safety, not interpersonal relationships or ideology) that I've left jobs over, because I refused to cross. So far, I have not refused to work with anyone over ideological grounds.

At what point does "being able to get the job done" become compromised by unsavory individual opinions? Just because I haven't yet had to face a colleague who holds such retro views yet, doesn't mean that I won't in the future. Is the world changing, is the industry changing, or are we changing? I hope that I'll have the fortitude to resist truly abhorrent opinions in a musical setting, if the time comes.

I hope we emerge from this as a harmonious ensemble, with differences worth celebrating. I am especially asking those among us with decades of playing experience: have you had to contend with these issues in the past? I think it is a discussion worth having right now. We all need to hear those stories: there has never been a better moment. Nobody wants to repeat past mistakes, and nobody wants to have present actions to constitute past mistakes in the future.

For the betterment of our trombone horde, let's hear it.

This really is not something new.

When I was growing up just post World War II, many Jewish musicians would refuse to play the music of Richard Wagner because he was known anti-Semitic and because Hitler considered Wagner his favorite composer. Although Wagner used Jewish musicians and conductors frequently.

Personally, I'm nowhere high enough in the food chain to have to deal with any colleague's political quirks. I have chosen not to work with some individuals because of some personal habits. One never seemed to ever shut up and one managed somehow to mangle music incredibly.

My repair tech told about one of the now famous trombone players, i forget who, switched from euphonium to trombone in high school because he didn’t like his section leader. Not really what you’re asking but just thought i’d through that in there.

So, what are you really asking?

I've worked with all kinds. I've worked with a resident savant to total butt holes. Angelic to demonic. If you are getting paid, you usually find ways to deal with it. It's usually just a matter of choosing your words and company carefully. And a good attribute if you have a thick skin.

I did have situations that were just untenable. In one case, the antagonism started leading up to a first gig and ended when the gig was over and, surprisingly, a mutual respect was developed. In another case, though, it was resolved only when we parted company.

I'm not sure that it isn't just situational. Are you looking for some sort of immutable law that is one-size-fits-all? I'm not sure it exists.

Everyone's got their stuff, man. Most people's are pretty doable, but I've had to work with my fair share of musicians who are really hard to get along with. I actually am beginning to think that it's the normal in the industry (especially in the classical scene). At the end of the day, you just have to figure out how to best get the job done with as little conflict as possible, and then try to take the best steps avoidable to not have to deal with that situation again. I think the situation you are talking about is a really extreme variant where intervention is necessary. If someone is a sub and just being hard to work with or rude, maybe time to let the personnel coordinator know that they shouldn't be hired again.

So I (mentally) look around the room and I can’t identify any eccentric, unstable, or hard to get along with people.

Does that mean it’s me?

Everyone considers themself to be normal.

Gary wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 10:19 pm I've worked with all kinds. I've worked with a resident savant to total butt holes. Angelic to demonic. If you are getting paid, you usually find ways to deal with it. It's usually just a matter of choosing your words and company carefully. And a good attribute if you have a thick skin.

I did have situations that were just untenable. In one case, the antagonism started leading up to a first gig and ended when the gig was over and, surprisingly, a mutual respect was developed. In another case, though, it was resolved only when we parted company.

I'm in the same boat as you. A gig is a gig and you'll get your check at the end of the day.

One of the most important things with being a musician is being a good hang. They don't teach that in school but you still need to learn it!

If you're expressing views (political or moral) that are inappropriate for the gig or the people you're playing with you better bet you aren't getting asked to come back. I think maybe that's the important thing to take away from the thread.

I've never walked out or told someone to walk out of a rehearsal or gig because of their views... but I've gotten pretty close a couple of times. There are only one or two people I refuse to play with because of bad experiences.

Social media can be dangerous for some people though... I've definitely raised my eyebrows a few times in the past month or two at the insane stuff people have posted. A handful of those people were musicians who I had no idea had radical views. Both Left and Right. Yikes.

People who are severely talented in one way or another are required to break with social norms. Acting average will never get you anywhere. People who are going to advance any boundary are going to stand out and break away from the rut everyone else is in.

What gig are you talking about to draw lines at?

In my world, freelancers are nice to each other. You have to be if you want to work. I don't care how well somebody plays if I don't want to sit next to them. It's that simple.

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:36 am In my world, freelancers are nice to each other. You have to be if you want to work. I don't care how well somebody plays if I don't want to sit next to them. It's that simple.

I don't think we're talking about that level. At least I'm not. If you're going to be Michael Jackson or Prince or even KennyG for that matter, you're not going to be fading into the background as a good section player.

I had a prof at DePaul University - he taught at the University and freelanced in Chicago - suggest I follow this advice if I wanted to gig and get called back: 1) Play with a good sound and in tune, 2) Show up on time prepared for the job, 3) Be easy to get along with.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:53 am

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:36 am In my world, freelancers are nice to each other. You have to be if you want to work. I don't care how well somebody plays if I don't want to sit next to them. It's that simple.

I don't think we're talking about that level. At least I'm not. If you're going to be Michael Jackson or Prince or even KennyG for that matter, you're not going to be fading into the background as a good section player.

The OP was talking about that level. Whom do you want to work with? What are you willing to tolerate if somebody plays well? What crosses the line and makes it not matter how well they play?

That matters at the highest levels as well, if not exactly the same way.

And to answer Paul's question more specifically, I have asked personnel managers of orchestras where I have contracts not to hire certain people to play in my section, not necessarily because I disagree with their views, but because the ways they express them are obnoxious. Disagreeing with me politically is one thing; I can handle that. Gloating and name-calling are unacceptable, and if I don't have to be around somebody who behaves that way, I won't be.

In the freelance community, people who behave that way start to disappear from gigs, no matter how well they play.

Bandleader Charlie Barnett needed a recommendation for a new guy. One guy being promoted was said the be "a nice guy".

"Nice guy?" said Charlie. "I don't need nice guys. Give me a bastard who can play".

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:29 pm This really is not something new.

When I was growing up just post World War II, many Jewish musicians would refuse to play the music of Richard Wagner because he was known anti-Semitic and because Hitler considered Wagner his favorite composer. Although Wagner used Jewish musicians and conductors frequently.

Personally, I'm nowhere high enough in the food chain to have to deal with any colleague's political quirks. I have chosen not to work with some individuals because of some personal habits. One never seemed to ever shut up and one managed somehow to mangle music incredibly.

I'm sure you've heard of the story of Daniel Barenboim when he played Wagner with the Israel Philharmonic