TromboneChat

Hi all,

Just curious as to the advantages of removable leadpipes. I never personally had a horn with this feature, and noticed that most new instruments aren't sold like this from the manufacturer.

I'm in the process of purchasing an older horn (hopefully an Olds Recording, if not then a small bore tenor), and was wondering if the mod would be worth it. I'm going to use it mainly for jazz.

Thanks ahead of time for the advice!

It lets you spend lots of money finding a pipe to replace the one that was destroyed during removal.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 6:28 am It lets you spend lots of money finding a pipe to replace the one that was destroyed during removal.

Chris

--Andy in OKC

Not sure if I would suggest doing this to a Recording, though it would resolve the mouthpiece fit issue common to Olds small tenors.

You might want to check into how many choices are available in that bore size before you do the deed. A .500" pipe might be altered to fit, but them it would be tough to sell on if it didn't work.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 6:28 am It lets you spend lots of money finding a pipe to replace the one that was destroyed during removal.

Chris

Most have done this, including me. However envision a dog chasing it's tail, for years, before you take this on. LOL!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:33 am

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 6:28 am It lets you spend lots of money finding a pipe to replace the one that was destroyed during removal.

Chris

Most have done this, including me. However envision a dog chasing it's tail, for years, before you take this on. LOL!

Ha ha !! As you know, I have many, many pipes for the horns that came with removable feature, but I have never had a pipe pulled . My first post was a joke, but there is more than a grain of truth behind it.

Chris

JohnL wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:27 am A .500" pipe might be altered to fit, but them it would be tough to sell on if it didn't work.

So I'm assuming I couldn't find one with a .495" bore? And where exactly does the bore taper to .510" on a Recording anyway?

I have not ever heard of anybody replacing the leadpipe on a Recording. Nothing about the way a Recording plays would tell me that it needs a different leadpipe. I'm a fan of leaving it the way it is.
Top tube is .495, bottom tube is .510

1) if the lead pipe is damaged there's not much of a reason to keep the old one. It can become corroded over the years. But it could also be fine.

2) easy to clean if its removed. Not necessary but nice.

3) on modular horns there there are a plethora of options, a slide might go on say, two very different bell sections. The lead pipes for one bell might not work as well as another bell. On stock horns that isn't really an issue because there are basically no options or at least not nearly to the extent that contemporary modern horns have. The horn in question definitely falls into that camp.

That said, I've replaced a number of pipes with Shires #2 in a variety of bore sizes and it has been an improvement in every horn I've done that too, including a 491 bore. I'm a godless amateur though, so ymmv. I think shires sells a 495 pipe for their MD model. A good tech can flare out the end of a 485 pipe or buff down .005 off a 500 pipe. If you get yours pulled you can try 485 pipes in it and them flare out whatever one you end up liking if you're worried about money. But the #2 taper for any size is usually a pretty safe bet.

You'll likely need a tech that has experience doing this though. A tech with experience with this is much more likely to get it out without damaging the inner slide.

I wonder....could a Shires #2 or Recording leadpipe be an improvement over the Bach 16 (duo bore) pipe? Both are .495 nominal. My NY 16 plays fine but noticeably tighter than my 16M (unsurprisingly).

Can of worms: fully opened

My question to the op is why even ask about this before a) even having bought the horn b) having spent time playing it? c) why do you think it needs replacing?

As discussed numerous times Old's have an unusual size mouthpiece fitting so a chat with Doug about shank sizes may be needed

I have had one pipe removed and I hate to say it was a Bach New York 6 mod VII, a horn I bought unseen. The pipe had cracks and the blow was really terrible so I had no choice. I took it to a tech and the pipe came out in pieces. I replaced with a Shires T2 standard .485 pipe from the Horn Guys. It is now a very good usable horn but not the same as a horn I've tried in original. The good thing is I only payed $600 for the horn plus $130 for the pipe and got a very good horn but I want to try a more Bach-like pipe and see if it does the change. I hope to put an order as soon as this Corona pandemic is over and things are back to normal.

/Tom

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 3:36 am My question to the op is why even ask about this before a) even having bought the horn b) having spent time playing it? c) why do you think it needs replacing?

I'm not 100% committed to this operation just yet. I'm trying the horn out tomorrow; depending on the condition of the horn, how it plays, and what price I can negotiate, I may not or may not go through with it. I really just wanted to know if it's even possible.

But yes, one of the main reasons is the mouthpiece issue. Ideally, I think it'd be neat to have a leadpipe for modern mouthpieces, and the original one for Olds mouthpieces.

obreitys wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 6:29 am But yes, one of the main reasons is the mouthpiece issue. Ideally, I think it'd be neat to have a leadpipe for modern mouthpieces, and the original one for Olds mouthpieces.

The original Olds pipes are a very good fit for their corresponding horns. I have yet to play an Olds where I thought pulling the pipe would make it better.

The con to pulling a Olds pipe is if the pipe is trashed in the process you basically have zero options to find something like the original.

I have a box of like 15-20 leadpipes and I really do think they make a difference but out of the five trombones I have three have fixed pipes and I refuse to pull the pipes on those slides out of fear of losing the original pipe. It's just not worth it sometimes.

obreitys wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 11:18 am And where exactly does the bore taper to .510" on a Recording anyway?

The bore does not "taper." The upper slide is 0.495" I.D., cylindrical inside and "duo-octagonal" (16-sided) outside.
The lower slide is 0.510" I.D., cylindrical inside and "duo-octagonal" outside.

To my knowledge, these duo-octagonal slide extrusions are no longer available. So if you were to trash the upper slide while removing the leadpipe (from a ~50-year-old trombone - so that's likely!) you's be SOL. Up a creek. Angry. Very sad!

The original Olds Recording trombones (whether L.A. or Fullerton) are (if well cared-for) fine instruments. Please do not alter yours unless absolutely necessary. There are several mouthpiece options that work with the factory leadpipe. Play this nice treasure and enjoy it!

Some of them fit standard shanks just fine. Mine is an L.A. and has a standard taper receiver.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 6:21 pm Some of them fit standard shanks just fine. Mine is an L.A. and has a standard taper receiver.

Interesting. I would have thought the smaller receiver was in production during the earlier period, before things got more or less "standardized."

Did they only switch to the smaller Olds receiver later, in the Fullerton era? What was the idea behind producing a proprietary receiver, anyway?

It may have been simple inconsistency rather than intentional. Although everything else about Olds was pretty consistent.

Also there wasn't really much of a "standard" back then. In the early 1900's when Olds started there was a lot of variance and a lot of horns of all makes including King and Conn had smaller receivers. The standard probably started in the 50's when Bach published their shank specs.

Even now there are two different standard shanks for French horn, and several different sizes for tubas.

This is where I miss John Sandhagen being a regular here...

If memory serves. Olds upper inner slide tube are the same ID for their entire length and extend all the way through the cork barrel. So, for a typical .485"/.500" Olds tenor, the OD of the leadpipe needs to be small enough to fit into that .485" bore. The "modern" standard for small shank mouthpieces is .476" at the 1" point. That leaves you with only .009" (.0045" per side) for the leadpipe walls, tolerances, etc.. Not really enough room, thus the undersized receiver.

On a .495"/.510" bore horn, there's plenty of room for a standard size receiver, but Olds would have wanted to standardize across the line (otherwise they would have had to make two different sets of mouthpieces). I suspect they just used slightly heavier walls in the receiver area of the leadpipe.

So why do some Recordings (like Doug's) take a standard shank? I think the mostly likely theory is that they've been reamed out at some point, though I wouldn't discount them leaving the factory that way as some sort of special order. It's less likely that the leadpipe was actually replaced; that sort of thing wasn't nearly as common back than as it is now.

My Olds Recording R15 (straight horn), made in Fullerton in 1968, has the classic "undersized" Olds receiver. Olds mouthpieces work perfectly, but most have rather small cups and throats. I prefer slightly larger pieces (non-Olds), which do not slide into the receiver quite as far, but still work pretty well for me, making this fine rich-sounding trombone more useful in various scenarios.

I also have a Recording R20 (with F-attachment), made in Fullerton in 1976 (late Olds production). This one has a different receiver, which accepts standard small-shank mouthpieces. I use, with pleasure, any piece I want on this trombone.

Apparently in the mid-70s, Olds saw the light (customer feedback?) and standardized the receivers on their larger bore tenors like the Recording.

obreitys wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 5:37 amI'm in the process of purchasing an older horn (hopefully an Olds Recording, if not then a small bore tenor), and was wondering if the mod would be worth it. I'm going to use it mainly for jazz.

For a horn like that, usually not. I haven't heard many people wanting to replace the leadpipe in those horns.

For a while, Removable leadpipes was "the thing". Yamaha horns had them, Bach Started offering them, Conn Started and companies like Getzen/Edwards had them available. Then, it somewhat quieted down, and you really only saw them on modular horns.

In my limited experience, most horns are best with the leadpipes they are designed to work with. Also, most of the horns that came with removable leadpipes, generally had a choice of 1 2 3, all designed to work with that specific horn and give you some options for adjusting the blow.

I am late to the party but please forgive me, I’d try a variety of mouthpieces before switching out a leadpipe, which you may have done already. Leadpipes are chosen for best overall playability so like a mouthpiece, you are giving up something for something else. There are many more mouthpiece choices than leadpipes. If you absolutely go the leadpipe route I’d have it soldered in the horn for your best possible chance.

Unless you know what your looking for in sound and feel you shouldn't worry about it. It can be an endless rabbit hole where you dump a lot of money into searching for something you had to begin with.

Big reason to pull a pipe is because the receiver is of a size that doesn't allow you mpc to fit right or because the pipe is rotted.

I've had pipes pulled from most of my horns and it really is a bigger gamble getting the pipe out intact the older the horn gets. I have yet to have a Conn 70 series leadpipe pulled out intact, and 2 out of 3 6H pipes didn't survive. What made those unfortunate outcomes bearable is i knew what pipes to put in those horns to get the sound and feel i wanted.

In short, don't worry about it. Out of sight out of mind.