Mount Vernon 4

[RobbTooley]

Anyone have any info on the above mouthpiece? It's stamped up: "VINCENT BACH CORP MT VERNON NY" one side and just "4" on the other. Small shank, rim seems flatter than most Bach mouthpieces I've seen.

[paulyg]

The "no letter" Bachs are under-appreciated pieces. Ralph Sauer stated (a few issues back in the ITA Journal) that Gordon Pulis played a 4 with a Conn 78/79H.

I have a 3 of the same vintage. Like you noticed, the rim is quite a bit flatter, with a sharper bite than the Bach mouthpieces most of us are familiar with, coming after the Corp. era. Interestingly, I briefly had another MV 3 that had a much more rounded bite to the rim. I sold it, as it didn't play as well.

I used that 3 as my main piece for a while- first on alto, then on tenor with a dual-bore slide. I received more compliments on my sound, and on section sound during that period than during my entire playing career.

[Burgerbob]

Nominally the same rim size as the number suggests, bit of a different rim profile, same throat as a C cup, but a bit deeper.

I have a 3, 4, 5, 6, and two 7s.

[Jwr5055]

Are the Mt. Vernon 8 or 15c trombone mpc rare?

[paulyg]

Are the Mt. Vernon 8 or 15c trombone mpc rare?

No way to really tell. They certainly don't come up for sale that often. I know that the 15-sizes were really popular during the early NY era ('20s, '30s), so there are probably more of those floating around. I have a 15E that works really well on Alto with the serif font stamped on it (very early NY).

[Matt K]

Seems like 12C and smaller were either more common or not tremendously desired. You can often find smaller Mt. Vernon pieces on eBay for not very much. 7C, 6.5AL/Clarke, 1.5G? $400. I think I've seen higher. Just now you can see a 12C and a 15C on there for <$30 but they're still accepting bids. 8s are more rare I can't recall immediately if I've ever seen one for sale.

[RobbTooley]

Thanks all for the info! Despite me looking for a larger rim small shank mouthpiece - I don't think this is it - but it's helpful as a point of reference all the same.

[FOSSIL]

Thanks all for the info! Despite me looking for a larger rim small shank mouthpiece - I don't think this is it - but it's helpful as a point of reference all the same.

Derek James played a 4 with an adapter his whole career. Kevin Thomson used one for the first two weeks after the holidays in his later years. Denis Wick made a 4AS for Jim Kechen to fit his 6H.... that could be your answer if you can find one.

Chris

[RobbTooley]

Hi Chris! Good to hear from you, hope you’re well and doing ok? Why is your username “Fossil”? You’re not that old!

Great info! Always sad I never got to hear Derek in person or work with him. The flat rim on this probably precludes me using it (after years on modern Bach and Stork mouthpieces it just feels wrong!), so I’ll probably move it on post-lockdown!

[FOSSIL]

Hi Chris! Good to hear from you, hope you’re well and doing ok? Why is your username “Fossil”? You’re not that old!

Great info! Always sad I never got to hear Derek in person or work with him. The flat rim on this probably precludes me using it (after years on modern Bach and Stork mouthpieces it just feels wrong!), so I’ll probably move it on post-lockdown!

Hi Robb,
All okay here at the moment thanks....hope it's the same for you. I worked with all three players that I mentioned and they were all monster players that it was a privilege to work with. As you know, Bach mouthpieces vary hugely and the right one might be out there.... I might even have it here !! I will have a look and PM you. Fossil.... it's because I'm a grumpy old git who is stuck in the past...

Chris

[RobbTooley]

Hi Robb,
All okay here at the moment thanks....hope it's the same for you. I worked with all three players that I mentioned and they were all monster players that it was a privilege to work with. As you know, Bach mouthpieces vary hugely and the right one might be out there.... I might even have it here !! I will have a look and PM you. Fossil.... it's because I'm a grumpy old git who is stuck in the past...

Chris

Glad to hear it - all well down here!

Just trying to find something I'm happier with on my small bore instruments - look forward to hearing from you with any suggestions!

[BGuttman]

I think the largest Bach small shank is a 3. I have used a 4C (not Mount Vernon) on my small bore horns until I shifted to a Wick 4BS (it's just a tad larger). Also, you can look for a Waburton 7 or 6 cup and get a small shank like a 4, 5, o 6. I have a Warburton 7 on a 4 shank and it is also a large-ish mouthpiece on a small shank. If you really want to do the ridiculous, I put a Warbuton #3 (Bass) cup on the 4 shank. Maybe when I get a chance I'll try that combo in my Whaley-Royce G Bass

[bellend]

You could try a Giardinelli 4D , if you can find one, they also made a 4M which makes a very bright sound for a mouthpiece that size.

Bach makes a 4C but to me they don't quite work somehow.

Wick 4BS? .......Very tubby sounding

There are things out there but most tend to make small trombones sound a bit dull ( like a large bore ) and or a bit flat as you go higher.

BellEnd

[BGuttman]

You could try a Giardinelli 4D , if you can find one, they also made a 4M which makes a very bright sound for a mouthpiece that size.

Bach makes a 4C but to me they don't quite work somehow.

Wick 4BS? .......Very tubby sounding

There are things out there but most tend to make small trombones sound a bit dull ( like a large bore ) and or a bit flat as you go higher.

BellEnd

Giardinelli 4 is a lot smaller than a Bach 4. More like a Bach 5. I have a Giardinelli 5 and it's more like a 6.5.

4C tubby? That really depends on your embouchure. I came from the large side and 11s and 12s are uncomfortably small. Since I play a 4G (later 4BL) on my symphonic horn, the 4C was the best fit for my small bore.

[bellend]

You could try a Giardinelli 4D , if you can find one, they also made a 4M which makes a very bright sound for a mouthpiece that size.

Bach makes a 4C but to me they don't quite work somehow.

Wick 4BS? .......Very tubby sounding

There are things out there but most tend to make small trombones sound a bit dull ( like a large bore ) and or a bit flat as you go higher.

BellEnd

Giardinelli 4 is a lot smaller than a Bach 4. More like a Bach 5. I have a Giardinelli 5 and it's more like a 6.5.

4C tubby? That really depends on your embouchure. I came from the large side and 11s and 12s are uncomfortably small. Since I play a 4G (later 4BL) on my symphonic horn, the 4C was the best fit for my small bore.

Yes, the Giardinelli is a bit smaller but for me is the best option out of the bunch.

If you care to look again I didn't say the 4C was Tubby, I said for me it didn't really work, it's the Wick that seems tubby sounding.

This size of instrument was never designed to work with
A: a cup volume this large or B. a rim diameter this big, and to me the two are inextricably linked.
Once you go over a certain diameter something in the sound fundamentally changes just as it does with bass trombone mouthpieces no matter what volume of cup you put under it.
The same is probably true for .547 instruments but I have no first hand experience of them.
No mouthpiece maker has ever managed to get round this phenomenon .... period.



BellEnd

[RobbTooley]

Thanks for the thoughts and insight!

The MV4 wasn’t something I’d specifically sought out as a solution, but rather a case of being a mouthpiece I’d had the opportunity to try. To me it feels a slightly odd mouthpiece but then the rim is flatter than I’m used to so I’m not likely to be able to judge it fairly. As Chris points out above it was used by some awesome players, so clearly works for some!

[Vegasbound]

You could talk to Doug Elliott he can match the rim size you want and his cup and backbore
Options are great

[Basbasun]

You could try a Giardinelli 4D , if you can find one, they also made a 4M which makes a very bright sound for a mouthpiece that size.

Bach makes a 4C but to me they don't quite work somehow.

Wick 4BS? .......Very tubby sounding

There are things out there but most tend to make small trombones sound a bit dull ( like a large bore ) and or a bit flat as you go higher.

BellEnd

Giardinelli 4 is a lot smaller than a Bach 4. More like a Bach 5. I have a Giardinelli 5 and it's more like a 6.5.

4C tubby? That really depends on your embouchure. I came from the large side and 11s and 12s are uncomfortably small. Since I play a 4G (later 4BL) on my symphonic horn, the 4C was the best fit for my small bore.

I have Giardinelli 3M and 3D, that is actaually pretty close to Bach 4c and 4. I bouth those from Mr Giardinelly hin self, I used them for long tim on my 500 bore horns, work very good. Well, back to the topic.

[Slidemo]

I've got the Giardinelli 4M and 5M the numbers are misleading. Doug has them both on his ST series comparison page and he's pretty much spot on.

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html

The cup is very shallow on both pieces and the 4M is in the bach 6.5 range rim wise. I think they'd make quite nice alto pieces.

[BGuttman]

I've got the Giardinelli 4M and 5M the numbers are misleading. Doug has them both on his ST series comparison page and he's pretty much spot on.

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/s ... chart.html

The cup is very shallow on both pieces and the 4M is in the bach 6.5 range rim wise. I think they'd make quite nice alto pieces.

As a matter of fact, I have a Doug Elliott MT102 rim on my Giardinelli 5M (it came with a plastic rim, and the DE rims screw on) and it works great as an alto mouthpiece in my Conn 36H.

[Basbasun]

I have used both 4C and Giardinelli 3M, they are close, Giardinelli 3D is more like Bach 4G, witch I also use for a short time. Giardinelli 4M (or D) is a nice piece, but smaller then Bach 4.

[Posaunus]

A (generous) friend recently gave me a Giardinelli 4M. (He no longer plays that size piece.)

I'd say it's comparable to a Bach 6½AM. Medium, sort of V-shaped cup; cup I.D 1.00", throat 0.246"