Bartok Valve // Plug In 2nd

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:38 am

What do you think of a horn that would use the linkages from a Bartok valve (like a trigger on a trumpet, but to take the F valve to an E/Eb remotely) to operate a plug in D valve?

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:17 am

Quote from: Kmanbassjam on Today at 04:38 AMWhat do you think of a horn that would use the linkages from a Bartok valve (like a trigger on a trumpet, but to take the F valve to an E/Eb remotely) to operate a plug in D valve?
I'm not sure I understand. I would guess that plug-in valves are way more common than Bartok linkages that just move the slide. The main difficulty making a conversion is that the point of a Bartok linkage is to make a LONG linear stroke with a small lever movement, where a valve linkage is there to make a small rotation based off of a smaller lever movement. Might have some parts to make a lever from, but it might be easier to just start from scratch, depending on the setup.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:47 am

Quote from: Kmanbassjam on Today at 04:38 AMWhat do you think of a horn that would use the linkages from a Bartok valve (like a trigger on a trumpet, but to take the F valve to an E/Eb remotely) to operate a plug in D valve?
If it's set up like what Thein uses, that's much more complicated than what would be necessary for a slot-in valve (as Andy pointed out - it's necessary to turn a rather short motion at one end into a long motion at the other). If you already had an instrument with the Bartok setup, you probably could use the Bartok levers, but you might be better served to get a second, simpler linkage (using the same pivot saddles) made for the slot-in.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:46 am

Yeah, I've seen a few plug in D valves, and the linkage is far more simple than a Bartok Valve.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:01 am

There's actually some pictures of a horn similar to this in the 'Bass Trombone Appreciation Society' Facebook group that was posted a few days ago. I believe it was a Hagmann valve with a 2nd drop in Eb valve. Unless I'm mistaking your description!

ttf_Kmanbassjam · Post by **ttf_Kmanbassjam** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:02 pm

Yeah I was thinking about something that uses the same lever/rods/joints etc but is used to trigger what would be the worlds shortest throw drop in valve, I'm wondering is such a horn exists or if it would be at all feasible, or would the action be too heavy/short/unusable. The whole idea checks out in my head but I'm just a trombonist, I'm not all that smart lol

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:50 am

I've seen probably a dozen horns like that. I'll see if I can dig up pictures. The length actually isn't much if a problem if the geometry is right.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:14 am

Quote from: Matt K on Today at 03:50 AMI've seen probably a dozen horns like that. I'll see if I can dig up pictures. The length actually isn't much if a problem if the geometry is right.Is the horn on Facebook actually a conversion of a "Bartok" setup or is it just a slot-in valve?

This horn, right?

That linkage doesn't look like it would work for a Bartok slide; not enough travel.

ttf_Kmanbassjam · Post by **ttf_Kmanbassjam** » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:49 am

yeah I'm thinking how would something like this:

be utilised to trigger a 2nd valve

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:14 am

Good example, yeah that's the one I was thinking of. If you look closely, you'll see that the linkage for the 2nd rotor on the above picture closely resembles the Barton one. Do you mean, for example, one that you could swap out a rotor for a 'bartok slide' and switch back and forth between them? One of the points of putting the rotor at the top there is so that it is removable so I don't see any reason why you'd not be able to do that. Probably the easiest way would be to make both totally removable since the linkage parts would probably be the cheapest part of it, though I could be wrong about that.

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 am

Here is a video of a Conn 72H custom conversion for a lever operated E-pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arb4u40iNxs

This would allow the Bartok gliss, and likely has weight advantage over a double valve F-E dependent.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:26 am

Quote from: Torobone on Aug 14, 2017, 07:50AMHere is a video of a Conn 72H custom conversion for a lever operated E-pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arb4u40iNxs

This would allow the Bartok gliss, and likely has weight advantage over a double valve F-E dependent.

Excellent. Really love that. Very tidy. I might give that a try.

ttf_LeoInFL · Post by **ttf_LeoInFL** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:04 pm

The Conn linkage setup is different than the Brass Ark bass in that the thumb lever extends the attachment tubing, whereas the Brass Ark bass uses the ("2nd valve") finger paddle instead.

If I were to get one, it would be the finger paddle version.

ttf_Lawrie · Post by **ttf_Lawrie** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 pm

Quote from: LeoInFL on Aug 14, 2017, 01:04PMThe Conn linkage setup is different than the Brass Ark bass in that the thumb lever extends the attachment tubing, whereas the Brass Ark bass uses the ("2nd valve") finger paddle instead.

If I were to get one, it would be the finger paddle version.
I understand the logic behind this preference (bolded bit) but I wonder how practical it is. I would love to hear from someone who uses the Brass Ark version.

What I'm thinking is there is a LOT of mechanical DISadvantage in the extension lever setup. Has to be as it's necessary to magnify a small movement (maybe 0.5"?) to a large movement (around 4.25") using a slide mechanish that may not be as light and quick as the normal handslide, not to mention overcoming a spring that will need to be strong enough to return that load to its normal position.

Now, given that your thumb is generally stronger than your fingers it makes sense to me to use it for the greater load, BUT theory and practice often don't mesh as well as we'd like...

Hence why I'd like to hear about real world results.

<edit> Of course, you could make a paddle big enough to accommodate 2 fingers.

ttf_Lawrie · Post by **ttf_Lawrie** » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 pm

Quote from: LeoInFL on Aug 14, 2017, 01:04PMThe Conn linkage setup is different than the Brass Ark bass in that the thumb lever extends the attachment tubing, whereas the Brass Ark bass uses the ("2nd valve") finger paddle instead.

If I were to get one, it would be the finger paddle version.
I understand the logic behind this preference (bolded bit) but I wonder how practical it is. I would love to hear from someone who uses the Brass Ark version.

What I'm thinking is there is a LOT of mechanical DISadvantage in the extension lever setup. Has to be as it's necessary to magnify a small movement (maybe 0.5"?) to a large movement (around 4.25") using a slide mechanish that may not be as light and quick as the normal handslide, not to mention overcoming a spring that will need to be strong enough to return that load to its normal position.

Now, given that your thumb is generally stronger than your fingers it makes sense to me to use it for the greater load, BUT theory and practice often don't mesh as well as we'd like...

Hence why I'd like to hear about real world results.

<edit> Of course, you could make a paddle big enough to accommodate 2 fingers.