TromboneChat

While starting over (in a sense) on trumpet during the past year or so, I've adopted a well-defined approach to tongue controlled embouchure:

https://trumpetpla.net

along with some bits and pieces I've gleaned from Jerome Callet and Bahb Civiletti. I've been pleased with my progress and find it hard to even replicate the embouchure I'd used for 40+ years (on and off), mostly on trombone/euphonium/tuba. Articulating through my teeth is now second nature, albeit on a trumpet mouthpiece.

I'm contemplating a return to tenor trombone and wondering whether or not trombonists have applied TCE - i.e., while using much larger mouthpieces than for trumpet.

Just curious how much difference mouthpiece size might make.

Thanks,

multiphonic

Callet tried to make me do it at a master class. I soon found it didn't work for me at all.

Alan Raph reported tonguing through his teeth for low notes on bass trombone. Again, I tried it and it didn't work that well for me. But that's a sample size of one, and somebody who doesn't claim to be a teacher.

Perhaps you can post some videos or recordings of yourself playing that way.

I worked much with a couple of trumpet players and one trombone player who tongued through the teeth. Fantastic players. There are probably more of those, we are not going around and checking are we?
One thing that is kind of a mystery, every time they play double pedals they are a semitone wrong. The say double pedal Bb and play a B. Listen, If you do not trust your ears use a sroboscop if you can find one.

You may find this link interesting:


At the 35:47 mark James Decker from Texas Tech University and formerly Honolulu Symphony Orchestra talks about his experience with TCE and does some demostrations. This section lasts about 10 minutes.
There is also a bit at 22:17 of Mac Gollehon playing valve trombone...

I have wondered if "tonguing through the teeth" is actually dorsal or Clark tonguing (or K-tongue) for many people. They can feel the tip of their tongue on the teeth, but their articulation is actually done somewhere back on the tongue, near the bump at the back of the upper surface, and that causes their tongue to be in an arched position, which is what really makes it work.

There are a lot more trumpet players who advocate dorsal tongue than TCE.

Dunno, just my speculation.

I tongue through my teeth in most ranges, but I wouldn't call it a "tongue controlled embouchure." It's just where I get a clean articulation.

Tonguing through the teeth is also recommended as an exercise in conjunction with the conventional way of tonguing behind the teeth, as an exercise to keep the teeth apart.

I'm not fully understanding this. I was taught back in the day to tongue on the lips, and then later to tongue behind the teeth. Much later I started to play with my lower jaw in an artificial forward position which was a significant improvement.
Maybe a diagram of some kind would help to clarify the idea, and what happens when double and triple tonguing?

A while ago I watched some of the Callet stuff about the TCE....and for me it seemed to be that the tongue stayed forward at all times maintaining contact with the bottom teeth and then the rest of the tongue controlled the registers.

I may be totally off with that though.

Ross

RoscoTrombone wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:12 pm A while ago I watched some of the Callet stuff about the TCE....and for me it seemed to be that the tongue stayed forward at all times maintaining contact with the bottom teeth and then the rest of the tongue controlled the registers.

I may be totally off with that though.

Ross

That's pretty much what Callet tried to get me to do in the master class. Might be great on trumpet, but didn't work for me on trombone.

Please everybody - note that I specifically asked the OP to provide some recorded evidence of his success, and he has not done so.

I have not yet heard anyone use that style of embouchure, that I would WANT to listen to. Including the links of the trumpet players who advocate it. I certainly don't want to sound like that.

Yeah...
I don't think the technique in the video above is the way to do it...
But this is! Let's listen to this kind of playing for our inspiration:

Had the opportunity to meet and hear Peter Steiner & Constanze Hochwartner at the Southern California Trombone Day in February (just 2 months ago, but it feels like ages). Both extremely talented, as you can hear, and very nice people. He's trying to make a career as a trombone soloist, and (if the current isolation ever ends) has a good chance. He's hard-working and dedicated. Several YouTube videos available to check him out.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:38 pm Please everybody - note that I specifically asked the OP to provide some recorded evidence of his success, and he has not done so.

I have not yet heard anyone use that style of embouchure, that I would WANT to listen to. Including the links of the trumpet players who advocate it. I certainly don't want to sound like that.

The problem with searching youtube for examples is that you'll find examples of people who are not professional players and therefore don't have the awareness or high standards required to impress when compared to the countless examples that others give of non-TCE players. They have not mastered the technique and then applied it to playing music professionally. (We can all find you plenty of examples of bad players who advocate other techniques...)

I have a youtube channel on which I post videos of me playing exercises. Physical exercises which are not and should not be compared to examples of world-class soloists performing music.

Bahb Civiletti is the best example of a real master of the technique. His album, Art of the high baroque, which is on spotify, is a world premier recording of the most challenging baroque trumpet repertoire. To date nobody else has ever learnt and recorded all of this repertoire on the baroque trumpet. He puts this all down to his mastery of the TCE, but obviously it has nothing to do with Trombones.

The other massive problem, which is only being perpetuated here, is that you're all discussing something without actually knowing what it is. Tonguing on the lips is similar, but different. Anchor tonguing is completely different.

One problem with the term "Tongue Controlled Embouchure" is that it makes people believe that it isn't a system that talks also about air and lips but it is at least as much an approach to using the air in a certain way as it is to the tongue.

Just to clarify some things from other posts:
TCE, in its simplest description, is playing with the front of the tongue anchored to the bottom lip. The tongue is curled slightly forwards. There is an aperture that is formed between the flat top of the tongue and the cutting edge of the top teeth. Some also argue that this aperture is between the flat top of the tongue and the inside of the top lip. This aperture is the reason that other systems do not and cannot compare to TCE just by being similar.
Note production is then created by a spitting action. This is highly efficient and in many ways over-powered, but the result is that you learn to create vibrations without reliance on huge amounts of air flow.

To address the quote above - Doug, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you not an advocate of the Reinhardt system? This would mean that by default you are strongly opposed to almost everything that Jerome Callet taught. I find it hard to believe that your comments would come from a position of balanced, considered opinion and as such would advise others to take them with a grain of salt. If you want evidence that TCE is an effective way to play then you need to do research that involves talking with and spending time in a room listening to players who have mastered this system and used it for a long time. There aren't many of us out there so unfortunately it may not be possible without great expense.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:38 pm Please everybody - note that I specifically asked the OP to provide some recorded evidence of his success, and he has not done so.

I have not yet heard anyone use that style of embouchure, that I would WANT to listen to. Including the links of the trumpet players who advocate it. I certainly don't want to sound like that.

I'm not set up for recording and, furthermore, not required to provide you with evidence of anything.

I'm happy with my sound and that's all that matters.

The spirit of TTF lives. That's a shame...

multiphonic wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:29 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:38 pm Please everybody - note that I specifically asked the OP to provide some recorded evidence of his success, and he has not done so.

I have not yet heard anyone use that style of embouchure, that I would WANT to listen to. Including the links of the trumpet players who advocate it. I certainly don't want to sound like that.

I'm not set up for recording and, furthermore, not required to provide you with evidence of anything.

I'm happy with my sound and that's all that matters.

The spirit of TTF lives. That's a shame...

Are you really that sensitive? Someone asked you to show your stuff and all of a sudden your're offended? You are correct that all that matters is how you sound to yourself- unless of course you play for a living. In that case, the way you sound to others is terribly important.

Yes I am biased, for very good reasons. I have read about TCE (and all the other methods) over the years and listened to recordings of Bahb Civiletti, and sorry but I'm not impressed. I have known plenty of players (like Jerome Callet) who could play very high using that technique (and other techniques), but couldn't really do anything else well. And they don't have a sound that I would want to emulate or recommend.

"Note production is then created by a spitting action. This is highly efficient and in many ways over-powered"

Yes, that's a pretty good description if what I think it sounds like.

Doug, you're replying to my post, but it doesn't appear to be here for other people to read...

You're welcome to the opinion and it's no odds to me that we don't agree on the merits of this technique.

I just wanted to put the record straight about what the definition of the method is and what it is not, at least to some degree. For those who are more curious take a look at http://tonguecontrolled.info/

In regards to the spit-attack being overpowered I would like to emphasize my previous comment about it being used as physical training, and not a way to perform music. TCE is a tool and it's the responsibility of the musician to learn to use it appropriately.

Just because a Tesla can go real fast, that doesn't mean that it cannot go slowly.

trumpetplanet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:22 am Doug, you're replying to my post, but it doesn't appear to be here for other people to read...

...

That's just because you did not have two approved posts. You do now and everybody can see what you wrote.

I have limited experience with TCE, but I play with a trumpet player who was a long-time student and friend of Jerome Callet. The Arbans book also described this method of tonguing in the text at the beginning of the book.

I took a lesson last summer with my old teacher, and he lesson started with a metronome set to 132 bpm with the requirement to single tongue 16th notes. I found my comfortable limit is about 112. My teacher practices at 144.

For most of my career, I believed in keeping my tongue out of the way in the bottom of my mouth. To come close to 112, I found that I have to have my tongue in a more neutral position much closer to my teeth.

Is this leading me to TCE? Maybe, or maybe not. It is an interesting thought, but all I'm interested in is playing well with less effort.

torobone wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:48 pm I have limited experience with TCE, but I play with a trumpet player who was a long-time student and friend of Jerome Callet. The Arbans book also described this method of tonguing in the text at the beginning of the book.

Where?

Since I have the Mantia edited version, could you paste the example here?

TCE is not "a method of tonguing.". It's "a method of playing" with the tongue tip in contact with the lower lip.

I was playing that way before I studied with Reinhardt. My playing and sound improved significantly when I stopped doing that. It's a crutch.

It’s not a crutch, maybe you just didn’t have someone who could teach you how to make it work. Or in the lens of DR, you don’t have a physical makeup that makes the method functional for you.
The Roy Stevens approach is great, but it’ll never work for my face. That doesn’t make it wrong.

Here’s some more info for those who like reading:
http://tonguecontrolled.info/index.php/tttt/

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:49 am Yes I am biased, for very good reasons. I have read about TCE (and all the other methods) over the years and listened to recordings of Bahb Civiletti, and sorry but I'm not impressed. I have known plenty of players (like Jerome Callet) who could play very high using that technique (and other techniques), but couldn't really do anything else well. And they don't have a sound that I would want to emulate or recommend.

"Note production is then created by a spitting action. This is highly efficient and in many ways over-powered"

Yes, that's a pretty good description if what I think it sounds like.

I agree. Good point Doug!!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:47 pm TCE is not "a method of tonguing.". It's "a method of playing" with the tongue tip in contact with the lower lip.

I was playing that way before I studied with Reinhardt. My playing and sound improved significantly when I stopped doing that. It's a crutch.

Facts!!

I’m completely with Doug on this one.

The only people I know who have persisted with the TCE approach have been obsessed with obtaining range (specifically high range) that they couldn’t obtain by other methods. That obsession with range seems to make them willing to overlook their tone...

Andrew

trumpetplanet wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:16 pm It’s not a crutch, maybe you just didn’t have someone who could teach you how to make it work. Or in the lens of DR, you don’t have a physical makeup that makes the method functional for you.
The Roy Stevens approach is great, but it’ll never work for my face. That doesn’t make it wrong.

Here’s some more info for those who like reading:
http://tonguecontrolled.info/index.php/tttt/

Welcome to TROMBONE chat, Trumpet Planet.

Telling long time members that they're entitled to their opinions in literally your first post is sort of a bad foot to start out on here...

Sometimes while tonguing or flexing or free buzzing I will realize the tongue is in contact with the lower lip. "Hey, wait a minute, is that right? Is it helping what I'm doing or not? Can I do without it?"

I think so. But I dunno for sure. If a thing seems to work I'll probably do it. Spent way too much time already on various correct ways to do things to worry about it.

trumpetplanet wrote: ↑Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:51 am You may find this link interesting:


At the 35:47 mark James Decker from Texas Tech University and formerly Honolulu Symphony Orchestra talks about his experience with TCE and does some demostrations. This section lasts about 10 minutes.
There is also a bit at 22:17 of Mac Gollehon playing valve trombone...

Man that was... uneventful. I didn't hear much difference in tone, and that free buzzing comparison was nothing short of bizarre. When I have my embouchure formed and buzzing, it doesn't matter where my tongue is, even if it's touching my lower lip near and near the roof of my mouth, I don't have some dramatic change in the shape of my lips or the type of buzzing that is happening.

This looks like a "method" that some trumpet players used to get some really high notes with no body, and then decided it would work with trombone.

Also, the whole "well if it's not working you didn't do it right or learn it right" is beyond condescending.

It is not my intention to be condescending or arrogant. I just wish for there to be a fair playing field in this conversation. What you notice here is that rather than discussing what TCE is from a viewpoint of trying to understand something that others do, the conversation gets turned into a matter of right vs wrong by people who already have firm opinions that it is wrong.
(On the trumpet herald site the Reinhardt guys are quite respective of the Callet lot because at least we can agree that embouchure is important. Over there it's usually the Claude Gordon advocates that exhibit this behaviour. It's a topic that gets discussed in this blog post: https://trumpetpla.net/2017/08/25/state-of-the-trumpet/ )

For example, the criticism of Bahb Civiletti is completely baseless and contains not objective facts. What is fact is that he is highly respected by the best baroque trumpeters in the world. His album was produced by Ed Tarr (RIP), who was a massively significant figure in the historical music world. Ed translated the TCE book into German. Around that time Bahb also played concerts around Europe with Friedemann Immer.

What I see here is people discussing people they know who've tried TCE and not the method itself. As I said in my lengthier post above. I understand this because Jerome Callet used his high range as pretty much the only tool for advertising his research for a long time. And it was a long time - he spent over 50 years developing his teaching and playing. I never promote the TCE as being about range. To me it's about control, efficiency and stamina.

If anyone wants to discuss the TCE, what it is and how to learn it the the information for contacting me can be found on the websites above. There is also a Jerome Callet Facebook group that you're all welcome to join.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:47 pm TCE is not "a method of tonguing.". It's "a method of playing" with the tongue tip in contact with the lower lip....My playing and sound improved significantly when I stopped doing that. It's a crutch.

My experience exactly! Doug knows what he's talking about here.

Is there an example of this playing that actually sounds good? Please post an example, Trumpet Planet. So far the examples have all sounded mediocre at best.

If the answer contains the word "subjective", we're good to close this thread out haha. Seriously, it's clear as day that you joined the forum with the sole purpose of defending this concept -- you got anything else to offer?

For what it's worth, Donald Reinhardt wrote about something similar in his Encyclopedia of the Pivot System. Two of the "tongue types" he identifies as effective (provided it fits the player's anatomy) have the player's tongue tip contacting the lower lip while slurring and sustaining notes. He wrote:

Although ordinarily it is definitely incorrect to allow the tongue to penetrate between the teeth, the long lower lip and the short lower teeth make it permissible in this instance because the tip of the tongue is actually being used to make up for the shortness of the lower teeth.

- Reinhardt, p. 88-89

There do see to be two differences between what Reinhardt was describing and what a tongue controlled embouchure is. First, Reinhardt felt it was better to articulate off the lips because he felt it would provide better overall embouchure stability, whereas most of the TCE advice is to articulate like "spitting seeds" off the lips. I also suspect that the usual TCE tongue position is much more forward in the mouth than what Reinhardt would have recommended.

Regardless, I have never been able to make a tongue controlled embouchure work for me, although I have to admit I don't find it plausible enough to do any more than goof around with it. I have been able to recreate some of it's apparent benefit of easy high range by holding my tongue tip in contact with the lower teeth, rather than the lower lip, and then pushing my tongue center forward towards the teeth. It feels as if I'm then blowing the air over the tongue higher in the mouth and then it will take a more narrow path sharply down at the upper teeth, and then out at the aperture. There's something about this that makes high notes come out easier for me. It also seems to get a particular sound that I don't really like.

I'm contemplating a return to tenor trombone and wondering whether or not trombonists have applied TCE - i.e., while using much larger mouthpieces than for trumpet.

Just curious how much difference mouthpiece size might make.

For the record, I would like to encourage you to explore other options, but if you decide to try to work on a tongue controlled embouchure with a low brass mouthpiece you're not really going to be able to do the sort of pedal tone practice that TCE has you do. Frankly, I think it's better to not do those anyway. If you really want to learn more about it I would go to the Trumpet Herald. There's also a someone on the Trombone Pedagogy Facebook group who I believe uses a TCE and sometimes teaches it to her students, so you could join and ask about it there.

I just wanted to put the record straight about what the definition of the method is and what it is not, at least to some degree. For those who are more curious take a look at http://tonguecontrolled.info/

It's been a while since I took a deep dive into TCE. Rich, your written descriptions about what a TCE are about as good as I've seen. That said, I don't find your advocacy for it very convincing, based on what I've seen work and not work for brass playing. Some of the conclusions you draw from the historical record seems a bit implausible as well. I do appreciate you taking the time to come into the "lions den" and make your case.

Best,

Dave

I'm definitely a Reinhardt guy but I'm always interested in what people do to get the results they get, good or bad. I like the debate and I don't think it's mean-spirited or anything. I'm enjoying this thread.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:23 pm Is there an example of this playing that actually sounds good? Please post an example, Trumpet Planet. So far the examples have all sounded mediocre at best.

If the answer contains the word "subjective", we're good to close this thread out haha. Seriously, it's clear as day that you joined the forum with the sole purpose of defending this concept -- you got anything else to offer?

Here's an example of a staunch tce advocate making the point that Wynton Marsalis was outplayed because he doesn't do tce.
Disclaimer: i dont agree. Now that that's out of the way heres exhibit c.
He says Wynton's notes don't pop because he doesn't do tce. Oh and he gives an example of what he does with tce at the beginning of the video. To be frank i wasn't impressed.

I bought a book about it i NY 1974 or 75 to a friend, he worked on the method for years, he took some lesson from Callet. He play much better then the exampels above. Of course I tried it. I can say that I see how it works, and how it does not work for me. I think this thread is good since the method exist. Why not talk about it.
I say there is some very big differences between trombone and trumpet, not only the instrument it self, but also between trumpeter:s and trombonist:s. One big different is the pedals. I am sorry if I hirt somebodys feeling, but the noise som trumpeters call pedaltones really offend me.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:02 am I bought a book about it i NY 1974 or 75 to a friend, he worked on the method for years, he took some lesson from Callet. He play much better then the exampels above. Of course I tried it. I can say that I see how it works, and how it does not work for me. I think this thread is good since the method exist. Why not talk about it.
I say there is some very big differences between trombone and trumpet, not only the instrument it self, but also between trumpeter:s and trombonist:s. One big different is the pedals. I am sorry if I hirt somebodys feeling, but the noise som trumpeters call pedaltones really offend me.

Is it true that trumpets dont have true a pedal register?
A trumpet player told me that before. I didn't believe him. I thought all instruments had some type of pedal register. I know its kibd of off topic but if anyone can help i would appreciate it.

kingtempo504 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:50 am

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:02 am I bought a book about it i NY 1974 or 75 to a friend, he worked on the method for years, he took some lesson from Callet. He play much better then the exampels above. Of course I tried it. I can say that I see how it works, and how it does not work for me. I think this thread is good since the method exist. Why not talk about it.
I say there is some very big differences between trombone and trumpet, not only the instrument it self, but also between trumpeter:s and trombonist:s. One big different is the pedals. I am sorry if I hirt somebodys feeling, but the noise som trumpeters call pedaltones really offend me.

Is it true that trumpets dont have true a pedal register?
A trumpet player told me that before. I didn't believe him. I thought all instruments had some type of pedal register. I know its kibd of off topic but if anyone can help i would appreciate it.

Many centuries ago, the god of music had a trumpet player knock at his door. "Have you come to apologise for that business with the wall in Jerico ? "He asked..... "no" said the trumpet player... "I have a request ".... "Oh" said the god of music, "what do you want ?". "I want to play higher" said the trumpet player "Like REALLY high". "Well," said the god of music, "you're only allowed so many notes, and if you want more up top, I'll have take some of the bottom notes away".... "DEAL" said the trumpet player, without any hesitation. So from that day onwards, trumpets lost their pedal register and gained this squeeky upper register....the trumpet player forgot to ask for a decent tone as well....that's trumpet players for you.

Chris

trumpetplanet wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:37 am It is not my intention to be condescending or arrogant. I just wish for there to be a fair playing field in this conversation. What you notice here is that rather than discussing what TCE is from a viewpoint of trying to understand something that others do, the conversation gets turned into a matter of right vs wrong by people who already have firm opinions that it is wrong.
(On the trumpet herald site the Reinhardt guys are quite respective of the Callet lot because at least we can agree that embouchure is important. Over there it's usually the Claude Gordon advocates that exhibit this behaviour. It's a topic that gets discussed in this blog post: https://trumpetpla.net/2017/08/25/state-of-the-trumpet/ )

Trumpet players are rarely given a fair shot on a trombone forum. Sorry, but it does seem to be the case, based on your and past experience.

In my experience, some trumpet playing techniques do translate to the trombone. The TCE may or may not be one of these techniques. Conversely, I would suggest that there are many ways to play a trombone that would never translate to trumpet playing. Some trumpet players do great on both instruments, e.g. James Morrison and Trombone Shorty. If anyone takes issue with their playing, well haven't I heard that before.

I can offer no example of a trombone player having success with TCE. I took one formal lesson and have had many informal discussions with John, a trumpet soloist, student and longtime personal friend of Jerome Callet. While John is a user of TCE, he has never suggested I consider changing my trombone playing approach to incorporate or use it. I do plan to take more lessons with John in the future.

To Mr. Callet's credit, my friend spoke with Jerry on the phone one month prior to Jerry's passing. Jerry was still discussing ideas on playing and his trumpet's design during that phone call. Jerry had both his supporters and detractors, but his contributions are worthy of discussion, hopefully in a fair and non-dismissive way.

I just want to add that TCE would probably work better for trumpet players than trombone players because it creates a smaller resonance cavity in the mouth. Not a problem for players going high, but changes the tone excessively for players in the lower ranges of music.

I learned from Callet. Gave it a try. Decided it wasn't for me. The trumpet player who set up the master class (and played in the quintet we had at the time) was a Callet disciple and we remained friends until he moved out of the area.

Chris -- loved your little tale.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:10 am
Many centuries ago, the god of music had a trumpet player knock at his door. "Have you come to apologise for that business with the wall in Jerico ? "He asked..... "no" said the trumpet player... "I have a request ".... "Oh" said the god of music, "what do you want ?". "I want to play higher" said the trumpet player "Like REALLY high". "Well," said the god of music, "you're only allowed so many notes, and if you want more up top, I'll have take some of the bottom notes away".... "DEAL" said the trumpet player, without any hesitation. So from that day onwards, trumpets lost their pedal register and gained this squeeky upper register....the trumpet player forgot to ask for a decent tone as well....that's trumpet players for you.

Chris

Do tuba players have pedal notes? Or French horns?
Why there is no trumpet Christmas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfodl1g_ibY

kingtempo504 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:50 am Is it true that trumpets dont have true a pedal register?
A trumpet player told me that before. I didn't believe him. I thought all instruments had some type of pedal register. I know its kibd of off topic but if anyone can help i would appreciate it.

My understanding; someone please correct me if this isn’t right.

Trumpets and trumpet players theoretically have a pedal register, or a fundamental tone. It’s just very difficult due to the size of the mouthpiece, the instrument, e.g., acoustics and design. What trombonists call the pedal register — 8ve basso Bb1 and downwards — is theoretically there on trumpets but very difficult for most trumpet players to play.

When trumpet players play “pedal tones,” they are playing the notes between E3 and B2. One octave down for trombonists would be called the “trigger” register, or E2 down to B1. Trombonists can play this register without using a trigger. Trumpet players play these notes without a trigger, or by using a fourth valve if they have one. Some flügelhorns like old Getzens have a fourth valve and can play that register, and 4-valved piccolo trumpets can too, just one octave higher.

Trombonists call them “fake,” “falset,” or “factitious” tones. You can play these by lipping down a major 3rd from any note in the partial beginning Bb2 in 1st position. There’s a kind of semi-stable resting place between the partials where you can play an F in 2nd position, an E in third position, and so on. Aidan Ritchie did a youtube video a while ago and posted it I think in the old TTF. I’ll see if I can’t find the link and post it later.

Bill Watrous (and some other jazz trombonists) have used these a lot. Watrous developed that register to the point where he sounded almost like a bass trombonist. It’s a lot easier on a smaller horn and mouthpiece than a bass or a large tenor, but it can be done. I think it’s useful practice, too.

Basbasun wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:02 am
One big different is the pedals. I am sorry if I hirt somebodys feeling, but the noise som trumpeters call pedaltones really offend me.

Yep. Like a fart in a wet paper bag.

kingtempo504 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:50 amIs it true that trumpets dont have true a pedal register?
A trumpet player told me that before. I didn't believe him. I thought all instruments had some type of pedal register. I know its kind of off topic but if anyone can help i would appreciate it.

From what I remember reading, the trumpet's bore size is too large compared to its overall length to have a pedal register that works. It may also have to do with the mouthpiece and other areas of which I am not an expert.

They can make sounds similar to false tones, but it doesn't really make the instrument resonate, and sounds kinda like someone stepping on a duck.

Another interesting thing about pedal tones on the trombone, I believe if you hook it up to an analyzer, you'll find that the pedal sound is made up of almost entirely overtones, and very little to none of the "actual" fundamental. When we hear them, we hear it as that fundamental, but it isn't actually there.

So in TCE, where on the bottom lip does the tongue come in contact? Just for fun, i tried playing with my tongue touching my lower lip. If I touched the top surface (where the lower lip touches the upper lip when you close your mouth) I got a sound much like the Spike Jones joke sound. If I touched the inside surface, lower down on the lip, it didn't seem to change anything at all. This is purely out of curiosity, so if people would refrain from responding as to whether one should or shouldn't use TCE, I would appreciate it. Just an answer to that question from someone who is familiar with this technique.

Aidan’s youtube on false/falset/factitious tones:

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:28 pm So in TCE, where on the bottom lip does the tongue come in contact?

Go here and watch for a bit, you'll see Jerome Callet demonstrate.

Wow, that guy has a set for each pitch.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:11 am

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:28 pm So in TCE, where on the bottom lip does the tongue come in contact?

Go here and watch for a bit, you'll see Jerome Callet demonstrate.

Thanks. Looks like it's touching behind the lower lip, although you can't tell where his tongue is when his lips are together. Didn't know this was a thing. I think my tongue is frequently touching my lower lip when I play; I never figured it was important one way or the other.

baileyman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:13 pm Wow, that guy has a set for each pitch.

Those are pretty extreme changes in register. I doubt anyone could play pedals and high notes with exactly the same setting.