Bigger becomes easier?

[johntarr]

During the past year, I’ve had some interesting experiences with mouthpieces and am wondering if anyone else has experienced similar.

A little more than a year ago, I tried some AR Resonance mouthpieces and felt they were much better than what I had been playing on (Bach 6.5 AL for medium bore and 11C with 6.5 rim for small bore). Thinking I had finally found a set up that was ideal for me, I went in for bronze mouthpieces and was happy, for a while.

After about a half year or so, I began having problems with articulations in the outer positions (Bb in 5th for example) and in the higher register. I tried my old 6.5 and it seemed better so stuck with that. Then, after deciding to get a bass trombone and replace my small bore with a medium bore (Lawler), I decided to try Doug Elliott’s mouthpieces and got a consultation with him over skype. One of the reasons for this is because Doug allows you to try out various parts and I’ve read many good things about his mouthpieces here. He recommended a much larger rim than I thought would’ve been right for me. He generously sent me a selection of rims, cups and shanks for my four instruments, alto, two medium bores and my new (used) bass. Because I was visiting my family in the states when I received the parts, I only had access to my new Lawler and the bass. Doug’s D+ cup seemed like a great match for me and the Lawler.

Returning home to Sweden, I tried the E and F cups with my other medium bore (Rath R3F) that is more my “legit” horn. I settled on the F cup and was very pleased with the sound and feel. The Lawler is the one I play the most and I began struggling again with the high register and some articulations. By chance, I had a concert with the Rath and found that the articulations and high register were quite easy. Fortunately I still had the E cup and tried that on the Lawler, which to my surprise and delight resolved the troubles I was having, and the sound was better to boot. Doodle tonguing also seemed easier. These experiences contradict much of what I believed about mouthpiece choices.

One might argue that I am dodging my responsibilities in the practice room and not maintaining my fundamentals, but I am very careful to work on the basics every day. Because I’m also teaching trumpet and horn to beginners, I end up playing those a bit every week, perhaps and influence? And, I’ve also heard that as we age, our lips get thicker thereby requiring more room for them. So I’m wondering if any of you out there have had similar experiences or have ideas on what’s happening.

Best to all, John

[hyperbolica]

I was cracking a lot of notes, playing on a 5g like I always did for large bore. It was hard for me to switch to 6.5al for smaller bore. I tried DE stuff with a 104 rim, and the cracking went away, plus I can switch mouthpieces, even to bass, much more easily . Interestingly my low range isn't as good and I play very sharp, but I don't think those can be blamed on the mouthpiece.

I use a 104 rim for all tenors, cups C - G. On bass I use 1 1/4G, and on Euph I use 2G. I think I'd move to DE 112 L if I decided to commit to DE on bass, I just haven't done that yet.

[timothy42b]

I took a lesson with Doug, and he told me my embouchure would benefit from a larger mouthpiece. We tried the 104 and it made no difference so I deferred changing.

After a couple more lessons and with a better understanding of how I should be playing, I moved to a larger mouthpiece and it did indeed make things easier.

So I think two things may be involved in whether bigger is better: if you are that type of embouchure, and if you're playing something close to correctly. Not that I claim to be doing everything/anything right, but at least my fundamentals are better than they were.

[Molefsky]

I'm kind of going through something similar. Was on a Griego 3 and started having issues. I do a lot of fundamental work with my students as well as freelancing on tenor, bass, and now a teency bit of tuba. Doug sent me a 104 and it was.... better... but still not quite what I need. I'm now waiting on a 105 and a symphony cup to try out. I'm optimistic.

[BurckhardtS]

I play alto and tenor on rims almost exclusively the size of Doug's XT 106, and I tend to prefer the larger side of bass rims. I really dislike playing things smaller, but I can make it work. I am a full-time tenor player. My high range AND low range get better on bigger mouthpieces. It works on smaller, but I get really bad endurance problems and start swelling up, so they're not permanent solutions, and trust me, I've tried. None of my teachers have had any issues with my sound on large rim mouthpieces. In fact, multiple teachers have been surprised to hear how large my mouthpiece is.

[TromboneMonkey]

I had a very similar experience. Was messing around with ~98 Cish mouthpieces for a long time, Doug's correct advice to go bigger not withstanding. The reason I was doing this was to be able to get a "characteristic" sound with lots of support in the high register for long jazz lead and pop gigs. Had LOTS of trouble with articulations, sometimes extremely frustrating.

I found that 6.5-ish were just becoming easier to play for everything. They were always easier to articulate, but I found myself being able to play high ballads on them more easily, requiring less finesse. I then found that they could do pop gigs just fine. I struggled to get them to work in lead situations. At ATW Doug, who is very kind still to tolerate me after my constantly taking years to finally listen to his correct advice, sold me a 100D3 and it works just splendid on lead and everything else. I'm hoping he makes a D+ soon for me to try (he's out right now) and I might even go up to an E.

I don't know what changed, exactly, but I do know that when I follow Doug's advice regarding the formation of embouchure prior to the note (draw back the corners, breathe, and then articulate while simultaneously bringing the corners forward with the note), it works.

I think that what's happening is that I'm getting more lip in the mouthpiece, which not only makes articulation easier, it allows me to produce higher overtones due to the additional vibrations of my lips. So I can have the best of both worlds in terms of sound and feel.

I'm hoping to try a D+ or E cup, get shanks for it that work in each of my horns and just be done with this madness.

[Kingfan]

I was switching my primary horn from a .547 horn to a .508 and was trying the standard small bore MPs: Bach 7C and smaller. Not good. Doug recommended his combo closer to a Bach 5, LT101/LTD/D3, and it clicked. Great range, no more backpressure.

[Vegasbound]

All depends on your chops...... I went to Doug 10 years ago as I had come off the ships, and was doubling etc and run into trouble playing large bore worked with Doug as I had gone to big for my chops....problem solved

FYI he is currently in his workshop and available for lessons and mouthpiece advice

[baileyman]

...
I think that what's happening is that I'm getting more lip in the mouthpiece, which not only makes articulation easier, it allows me to produce higher overtones due to the additional vibrations of my lips. So I can have the best of both worlds in terms of sound and feel.
...

This is what makes sense to me. To get more chop available for the high notes one can put them in a wider rim or learn to get them inside a smaller rim.

For myself, I do the second, setting for 12th partial and then training all the notes to work on that. The problem I ran into was for the highs, the lips want to powerfully contract to the center but get held back by the rim. The lower note set worked fine for most everything, but I did not realize that the chops necessary for the highs were at that point pinned by the rim and could not move inward. No amount of extreme contraction effort could overcome the strength of the rim to resist their contraction!

So it makes perfect sense to me that a wider rim could accomplish the same objective.

[johntarr]

As an add on, I recently received the right DE shank for my alto and the bigger rim along with his C cup now make it quite easy to play the high Eb, something I was struggling with when using a smaller rim .