For the REALLY demanding high stuff

[sterb225]

My daily driver is a Griego-Alessi 1c. Lately I’ve been seeing more really high stuff cross my path and am wondering if the 1b or even 1a really help with ease and endurance in the are above high D. Anyone switching out cup sizes for stuff like Bolero and other Uber demanding high range stuff? My head tells me I’m trying to cheat ... but these 50 y/o chops could use a little extra sometimes.

[Matt K]

I default to shallower cups personally and then adjust as needed so I have essentially the opposite perspective. I don't think its anymore cheating for me to use a deeper cup for lower stuff as it is for the opposite!

[FullPedalTrombonist]

Do what you need to to get the job done. Keep practicing to keep in shape, but on the stage if you need to switch mouthpieces to play what you have to play I wouldn’t feel bad about it.

I just did a charity gig with one rehearsal after being away from my horn for about three weeks. That’s life I guess, but I still had to play what I was given. I popped in a smaller piece when I’d had it with all the B’s, C’s, and D’s above the staff ( 15va ). It all worked out.

[paulyg]

I have a 1B and 1A that I'm trying to offload... if you want one, PM me!

[Bach5G]

The Schilke 51B was, according to myth, Jay’s Bolero mpc.

[Burgerbob]

The Schilke 51B was, according to myth, Jay’s Bolero mpc.

And much, much, much smaller in the rim than the Alessi 1 series.

[Pre59]

Keep the rim and just change the cup depth..

[harrisonreed]

Griego Alessi 1A demoed in this video. It's cheating. That's why it's called a cheater mouthpiece.

[tbonesullivan]

For the really high stuff, I switch to my Alto trombone mouthpiece. Also for myself, the Alessi series mouthpieces are quite large for tenor trombone, especially the 1s. They are around a 1/2 G width.

[Burgerbob]

More of a 2G size, not 1.5. I'm sure the OP knows this since he plays one full time...

[FullPedalTrombonist]

I’m sure that’s tongue in cheek just like the video was.

I played Bolero once, since it’s being brought up in the thread, and for that I even switched mouthpieces. I was in university so for tenor I was using a Schilke *5.3 or a GW103 and I think I used the Sullivan mouthpiece that came with my horn for that. A better fit for the sound the solo should have. If an equipment change suits the performance I wouldn’t consider that cheating.

[sterb225]

I should clarify that I have arrived at the Alessi 1 rim size (I undertook the experiment with grave reservations about actually attempting to use the same gear as Joe) after a long progression of smaller pieces starting in the range of 6-1/2 Bach and ranging through Shilke 51 and 52 and G&W as well as smaller Alessi rims. I have a relatively full lips and have found that with each successive change my range became more stable at the outer reaches. For me, the combination of the large opening and wide/soft rim profile hit the mark, finally affording me stable range out to a high F. I have found, though, that I am dancing a delicate ballet with endurance and strength when performing for long periods in 4+ ledger line range. The marketing says that the B and C cups are the answer, and am hoping for some validation of that from some cats that keep the same rim across multiple cups depending on tessitura.

[AndrewMeronek]

In my experience (and mouthpiece preference can be a moving target) deep cups are kind of over-rated. Not "bad" but not as "golden property" as sometimes is portrayed. I can get a fairly warm, colored sound at lots of dynamics throughout my range on not-so-deep mouthpieces. My current go-tos are Wedge 7C on my jazz tenor, and a 101GS (about a 5GS) on my symphonic tenor.

The thing about cup size is that dialing it in is kind of a pretty personal thing to figure out. It's not about "darkness" or "brightness" but other things that IMHO matter more. Too deep, and articulation and soft dynamics, upper range can get squirreley. Too shallow, and the cup walls actually begin to constrict the lips when playing loud and low. which can make it impossible to play, well, loud and low. This changes by the player, the rim size, and of course the use of your specific instrument in whatever music you're playing. But, I think that a good general rule that people should consider more is to try to experiment more on the shallower side: how shallow is the mouthpiece such that you can still play loud and low without getting your vibrating chops constricted by the cup - and from there, see how everything else is. Getting "bright" or "dark" is very much a function of your physical playing approach and IMHO your physical playing approach matters more than cup depth.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

I should clarify that I have arrived at the Alessi 1 rim size (I undertook the experiment with grave reservations about actually attempting to use the same gear as Joe) after a long progression of smaller pieces starting in the range of 6-1/2 Bach and ranging through Shilke 51 and 52 and G&W as well as smaller Alessi rims. I have a relatively full lips and have found that with each successive change my range became more stable at the outer reaches. For me, the combination of the large opening and wide/soft rim profile hit the mark, finally affording me stable range out to a high F. I have found, though, that I am dancing a delicate ballet with endurance and strength when performing for long periods in 4+ ledger line range. The marketing says that the B and C cups are the answer, and am hoping for some validation of that from some cats that keep the same rim across multiple cups depending on tessitura.

I think it’s more than just the cup which the design needs to change. Assuming the design of the backbore changes as well. I use the same DE 104N rim for tenor trombones with different cups/shanks. More for the sound or appropriate proportions to the instrument. I couldn’t try to get a D8 and use my C+ cup for regular first chair stuff, but maybe that would work in a situation. I think the shallower Alessi pieces are for brightness of sound. A lively and sparkly timbre for a recital or solo piece, but the decreased cup volume will help with some endurance more than it’d help you play higher. Getting the right balance let’s you play whatever instrument’s sweet spot. Too deep and things can get muddy or stuffy. Too shallow things can get too pointed and slappy. Either can lead to intonation and response changes.

[AndrewMeronek]

I think it’s more than just the cup which the design needs to change. Assuming the design of the backbore changes as well.

Sure! All the parts of the system impact the system.

[Matt K]

In my experience (and mouthpiece preference can be a moving target) deep cups are kind of over-rated. Not "bad" but not as "golden property" as sometimes is portrayed. I can get a fairly warm, colored sound at lots of dynamics throughout my range on not-so-deep mouthpieces. My current go-tos are Wedge 7C on my jazz tenor, and a 101GS (about a 5GS) on my symphonic tenor.

I generally agree, at least for tenor. For a long time I tried to make a 5G work and when I switched to Doug's stuff, I was still on the same horn. As time has progressed, I've moved to a horn that is easier to color and perhaps naturally more "dark" (a Shires that somewhat resembles a Conn) and backed way off on the cup depth. On the commercial side, a Yamaha that is definitely on the large side of what you'd expect for that spectrum (8.5" lightweight bell, 500/525 slide, etc.). On the classical stuff, I often play an XT E cup or a Shires 6.5AL threaded for the 104N. On commercial stuff, I'll play an XT A cup for lead but go for C or E the lower in the book I go.

On bass, if I'm playing pedal stuff, it really is nice to get something deeper though. I do most playing on an "L" but I have an M and an "O" (yes "O") cup that can get raunchy. I would never play it on a Miller tune but when I'm living in the basement as some of the charts in the bands I'm in play... yeah I have actually used it on a gig before.

Funnily enough, I had Doug make me an LB D cup that I keep in my small bore case just incase. I got it so I could keep my chops in shape on the rim size without getting out the bass. If I have 15 minutes between client calls it's enough time to get through a routine, etc. That said, I had a rehearsal where the bass player had to duck out and I just slid down a chair and it was surprisingly passable.

[harrisonreed]

The Alessi stuff is an endurance tanker for two reasons:

1. The rim is flattish and wide (from inner to outer cup). This room type locks your lips in place and makes it difficult for blood to circulate. It also makes it really easy to play with a stable sound.

2. The throat is pretty big on all of them, even the 1A. This makes a huge loud sound. It also tanks your endurance.

If the wide cup helps you play in those extreme registers on either end, but your endurance is gone, don't despair. The Alessi series is not the only mouthpiece with a wide rim on a tenor cup. The Ian Bousfield 3's solve both issues above (narrow rim, narrow throat).

DE would too.