TromboneChat

Short of taking it apart that is? I mean, I can take the valve cap off (and replace it), but I'm hesitant to disassemble the rotor to clean and lube it.

It's a dependent bass.

Depending on what horn you have, you may be able to remove the 2nd valve slide, half-valve the 2nd valve lever, and drip oil down the open slide. Or in worst case, remove the entire slide, hold the first valve closed and the second valve half way, turn the bell up and drip oil down the slide receiver. In both cases, work the second valve, but leave it in half-valve position now and then to allow oil to access the inside of the housing and outside of the rotor.

What horn? On most open wrap horns you can just pour some down the tuning slide legs.

Careful putting oil through the tuning slide - make sure your rotor oil and tuning slide don't have contraindications.....

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 04, 2017, 06:08PMCareful putting oil through the tuning slide - make sure your rotor oil and tuning slide don't have contraindications.....
Also try to keep the tube vertical and put the oil dead center; you want to get it to drop right into the valve, not run down the side of the tube and pick up lube and other cr*p.

A picture = 1000 words.







 

Yup, just dump some down the tuning G slide legs of the second valve.

When it really needs it, pop the valve out and oil it the better way.

Some people might say "leave it to the pros", but I think learning how to safely disassemble your instrument and do maintenance yourself is pretty essential.

I just don't want to learn by trial and error (mainly error).

I don't disassemble valves unless there is some corrosion to remove.

A rotor needs oil on the spindle and slogging it down the tubing to try to oil the spindle is not efficient.

You can take the rotor cap off.  Put a dome of oil on the bearing end.  Using a needle oiler, put oil on the crack between the actuator collar and the valve body (fill up the gap).  Pull the tuning slide to create a vacuum in the attachment.  Oil will be pulled onto the spindle.  Press the valve and push the tuning slide back in.  Repeat.

Normally, I wouldn't think that taking apart the rotor would be a normal part of routine lubrication. It's not designed to come apart as easily as an axial flow valve, and the tolerances are usually tighter. I don't think I've ever pulled apart a rotor.

Anyway, pull out the entire D crook, and oil it that way. You could take off the tuning slide from the crook, but that would make it take even longer.

Cool. Thanks guys.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 04, 2017, 09:22PM
You can take the rotor cap off.  Put a dome of oil on the bearing end.  Using a needle oiler, put oil on the crack between the actuator collar and the valve body (fill up the gap).  Pull the tuning slide to create a vacuum in the attachment.  Oil will be pulled onto the spindle.  Press the valve and push the tuning slide back in.  Repeat.

This ^
Much less wasteful than pooring oil down the tuning slides.

Shouldn't there be an oil hole?

Like, one of the screws comes out, and the screwhole leads all the way in to where oil needs to go? 

Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 05, 2017, 05:19AMShouldn't there be an oil hole?

Like, one of the screws comes out, and the screwhole leads all the way in to where oil needs to go? 



Olds did that, but for some unexplainable reason nobody else ever followed suit.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 05, 2017, 05:22AMOlds did that, but for some unexplainable reason nobody else ever followed suit.

King did that too.

I second Bruce's thought of oiling the bearings,  but that won't get the right kind of oil into the valve body!

Valves need two, and possibly three,  kinds of oil.  A thinner oil,  like Al Cass or similar piston oil,  for inside the rotor body and a heavier oil,  like the Hetman 12.5 or 13, for the bearings.  And lastly,  a REALLY heavy oil for the linkage bearings,  Hetmans 15 I think.

An easier way to oil the 2nd valve in a dependent set-up is to invert the bell section,  depress the F lever & pour oil into the slide receiver.  This will also get some more onto the F valve at the same time.
This process eliminates the possibility of the oil pulling tuning slide grease and any schmutz from the tuning slide areas into the valves!


Eric

^ this.

Another method: a horn player showed me the way they sometimes oil their valves when they have the time. Remove the crook, in this case the D crook, and drip 8-10 drops into the crook. Point the bell up, re-insert the crook, then point the bell down and press the valve repeatedly. You put oil directly on the valve, and like Eric said you don't run the risk of the valve oil carrying slide grease and other schmutz into the valve itself. And yes, most valves need at lead 2 if not 3 different types of oil.

Quote from: Alex on Jul 05, 2017, 12:25AMThis ^
Much less wasteful than pooring oil down the tuning slides.

You still need to put oil through the tube or through the slide connector. The body of the rotor needs a sealant to prevent air leaks and corrosion. Here's how I oil all of my rotors:

I use Hetmans stuff (which means I need to use their tuning slide grease as well). I use Hetmans 11 (light rotor) for the rotor core, Hetmans 14 (Bearing and Linkage) for the spindle and bearing plates, and Hetmans 15 (ball joint) for, you guessed it, the ball joints and lever connection.

1. Put a drop of Hetmans 14 on the front spindle arm of the rotor, where the lever arm connects to the rotor spindle. Trombonists probably think of this as the back of the rotor.... but apparently the rotor cap is actually the back of the rotor. You can engage the rotor a few times to work it around the spindle, but then let go of the trigger and pull on the tuning slide to create a vacuum. If you put your thumb over the slide trunion hole, you can guarantee that the air sound is coming from the spindle. This suction will pull the bearing oil into the spindle and hopefully onto the front bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

2. Remove the rotor cap and repeat the above process on the circle in the middle of the back rotor plate. The suction pulls the bearing oil around the back spindle arm and onto the back bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

3. While repeatedly engaging the rotor, drip some Hetmans 11 light down the slide trunion hole and onto the core of the rotor. Moving the rotor will spread it out inside the rotor housing  This action doesn't lubricate the rotor so much as seal air leaks (from normal playing) and prevent corrosion on the rotor and it's housing. You don't need to use a lot.

4. Remove the main tuning slide and repeat the above step, but drip the oil through the hole where the tuning slide goes into the goose neck. This is so that oil can penetrate from another angle.

5. Remove the rotor's tuning slide. Repeat the above step as needed through each tube leading to the valve, being careful to keep the rotor oil from mixing with the tuning slide grease. This is why Hetmans grease is a good idea -- it plays nice with Hetmans oils. This step may be the only way to get the core oil onto a dependent valve.

6. Put the bell section on a trombone stand and put a paper towel in the slide trunion hole. Engage the valve a few times, and then just leave it alone. You can angle the bell to facilitate excess oil to drain if you like, engaging the valve a few times as you do so. If you know about how much oil to use (not much), your paper towel shouldn't collect much waste oil.

7. While you wait, put the Hetmans 15 ball joint oil onto the miniball joints, if you have them. You can also use this on the connection points in the lever arm saddle. This oil is heavy and viscous. It should eliminate clickety clacks in the joints. It also works well on the threads of the rotor cap.

8. Repeat this process every few days unless you enjoy paying for new rotors.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 05, 2017, 07:39AM



1.  You can engage the rotor a few times to work it around the spindle, but then let go of the trigger and pull on the tuning slide to create a vacuum. This suction will pull the bearing oil into the spindle and hopefully onto the front bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

2. Remove the rotor cap and repeat the above process on the circle in the middle of the back rotor plate. The suction pulls the bearing oil around the back spindle arm and onto the back bearing plate.
Not doubting your method, but I've pulled that tuning slide and never seen any sign of oil being drawn into the valve.  It's a 42B from 1971. 

If the rotor doesn't have a good seal, it might not work. I guess you'd have to either take apart the whole rotor each time or get the core relapped.

I can totally see this method failing on a rotor that is older or already damaged. Part of why I mentioned blocking off the trunion hole is that it makes it more likely for oil to be forced through the spindle connections. Of course, all the tuning slides would also need good grease and a good seal too.

Does the oil penetrate into the bearing plate at all on your horn?

The rotor works fine, so how would I know?

The only problems I've had were if I let the linkage get out of adjustment.

That happened last night.  The screw on the spindle arm loosened during the concert and the valve stuck.  I don't really need it on first but once in a while it's convenient, so between pieces I tightened it back up.  I didn't have a good way to tighten the jam nut securely enough but that can wait. 

There's a best method that hasn't been mentioned. Just scrap the traditional rotors and get yourself a couple Hagmann valves...xD

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 05, 2017, 10:00AMThere's a best method that hasn't been mentioned. Just scrap the traditional rotors and get yourself a couple Hagmann valves...xD

are they different for the purposes of oiling?

How much of the rotor core actually contacts the backing plate? Most seem to have the sides of the rotor be mostly open, with maybe a small shelf/bushing around the spindle bearing. Other than that, I don't see many places the oil could go, except into the empty hole.

I have tried the "suck in the oil" thing, and honestly I haven't really seen oil go in. My trombones are relatively new though, and there is not much slop at all in Yamaha and Kanstul valves, so oil isn't getting in there easily.

I've got way to many different viscosities of Hetman oil though, that's for sure. Also Ultra Pure oils as well.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 05, 2017, 10:04AMare they different for the purposes of oiling?

I was just being silly.

But yes they are. The valve core is hollow (Instead of being a solid chunk of brass with ports drilled into it, it's basically a second, smaller empty casing, with hard-soldered tubing inside of it). That core/inner casing has extra holes between the ports so the oil circulates from inside the core to between the core and outer casing. So you just pop open the cap and drop some oil in there and you're good to go! Disassembling for cleaning is only slightly more complicated than a standard rotor - there's an extra spring that can be a pain to reset once you're done - but the only tool needed is a hex key.

The drawback is that since it's larger and it has ports on two planes instead of one, it's got much more friction surface between the core and casing, so it needs lighter oil and much more of it.

I put my bass on the stand without the slide with a rolled up paper towel in the slide receiver and the tuning slide removed.

I use a Hetman bottle with a piece of clear plastic tubing about a foot long fitted over the nozzle of the bottle.

The plastic tube is inserted until it meets the F valve.  Actuate and oil at the same time.  Repeat for the G valve.  That way you don't end up with oil all over the tubing above the valves.

I haven't tried using the tuning slide action to suck oil into the valve from the spindle lube points.  That's a good idea.

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 05, 2017, 02:13PMHow much of the rotor core actually contacts the backing plate?

None, or very little. The core should have minimal contact with the rotor case. They are manufactured to very tight tolerances. The spindle and its base, however, which are attached to the rotor core, do contact the backing or bearing plate on both sides of the rotor core.

See http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,64568.0.html for pictures.

QuoteYou can engage the rotor a few times to work it around the spindle, but then let go of the trigger and pull on the tuning slide to create a vacuum. If you put your thumb over the slide trunion hole, you can guarantee that the air sound is coming from the spindle. This suction will pull the bearing oil into the spindle and hopefully onto the front bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

Most techs I know don't use the vaccum method of oiling and recommend agains it. By pulling the tuning crook out to "pull" oil into the rotor or the rotor core or the spindles, you run the risk of drawing in dirt or other contaminants. If you're successful at this method, however, you will be able to pull spindle oil into the rotor casing and onto the core. Just remember that spindle oil is heavier viscosity that rotor core oil, and could make the valve action sluggish.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 05, 2017, 10:00AMThere's a best method that hasn't been mentioned. Just scrap the traditional rotors and get yourself a couple Hagmann valves...xD

They're just as bad as traditional rotors.  More so, IMHO, due to the design!!

Eric

Should the rotor need oil between itself and the rotor casing?  They shouldn't actually touch, should they?

I would think that enough moisture is generated in the trombone to keep a 'seal' between the rotor and casing.  I put a drop or two of oil in there once a year or so, but only to coat the valves in order to reduce corrosion not for sealing or lubing purposes.  I usually don't problems with my valves just lubing the spindles and the linkages, if they have them.

That's not entirely true.  I had a brand new Conn 88H (the Abilene abomination) that had a valve so loose you could could stick a .01" feeler gauge between the rotor and the case.  Nice quality control!

Quote from: bonearzt on Jul 06, 2017, 07:14AMThey're just as bad as traditional rotors.  More so, IMHO, due to the design!!

Eric


I am with you, they are very finicky.

No patience with finicky anymore.

Standard Yamaha rotors. (But, that being said, #2 is sticking a bit. Time for a trip downtown.)

I like the idea of a plastic tube inserted into tuning slide. I just happen to have a length of .500 ID PVC tubing on my shelf. I don't like the idea of the oil dripping down the insides of the tuning slides into the valve.

I'm using Yamaha and/or Edwards rotor oil.
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30 posts on this topic!

Quote from: Ellrod on Jul 06, 2017, 03:26PM<snip>I don't like the idea of the oil dripping down the insides of the tuning slides into the valve.
This seems to be a recurring theme, and I don't really understand it...

Some oil on the inside of your attachment tubing will help prevent, or at least minimise, deposits forming.  You know, those hard deposits that can be really hard to remove?

And if you think about it, when you're playing, the tuning slides are "uphill" from where the oil would normally sit.

For that matter, what's so bad about re-greasing your tuning slides occasionally?  Sure beats the hell out of trying to remove hard deposits - ones that will usually only respond to a chem clean.

The only place you REALLY don't want oil to get to is your hand slide, especially if you're using a silicone based lube.

My $0.02

Quote from: Lawrie on Jul 06, 2017, 05:49PMThis seems to be a recurring theme, and I don't really understand it...

Some oil on the inside of your attachment tubing will help prevent, or at least minimise, deposits forming.  You know, those hard deposits that can be really hard to remove?

And if you think about it, when you're playing, the tuning slides are "uphill" from where the oil would normally sit.

For that matter, what's so bad about re-greasing your tuning slides occasionally?  Sure beats the hell out of trying to remove hard deposits - ones that will usually only respond to a chem clean.

The only place you REALLY don't want oil to get to is your hand slide, especially if you're using a silicone based lube.

My $0.02


The idea is that if you drop rotor oil from the tuning slide, it can dissolve and carry with it some of the much thicker tuning slide grease into the rotor. That will have the exact opposite effect from lubricating your valve, it'll clog it up. Moreover, some valve/rotor oils may chemically react with some tuning slide greases/oils (i.e. mineral oils and synthetic oils are typically not compatible), creating very hard chunks that can do a lot of damage in your valve (i.e. heavy scratching).

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 06, 2017, 06:28PMThe idea is that if you drop rotor oil from the tuning slide, it can dissolve and carry with it some of the much thicker tuning slide grease into the rotor. That will have the exact opposite effect from lubricating your valve, it'll clog it up.
Having never experienced problems with that particular circumstance it wouldn't have occurred to me.  I've certainly had grease from my tuning slides diluted by oil but it has never found it's way into the valve.

However, I'm happy to concede that others may well have experienced this and I appreciate the heads up.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 06, 2017, 06:28PMMoreover, some valve/rotor oils may chemically react with some tuning slide greases/oils (i.e. mineral oils and synthetic oils are typically not compatible), creating very hard chunks that can do a lot of damage in your valve (i.e. heavy scratching).
I think the oft made assertion that mineral and synthetic oils are incompatible is something of a crock UNLESS you are comparing mineral oils with synthetic silicones.

AFAIK most instrument oils are paraffin based (paraffin is really a wax) - it matters not if the source of the paraffin is "natural" (extracted from crude oil) or a lab I.E. synthetic - it's still paraffin and has the same chemical formula (the less carbons in the chain, the lower the viscosity).  If the formulae are the same - or at least similar (differing length chains) - there can be no incompatibility.

As some others have suggested dropping oil down through the tuning slide legs is NOT a good idea. Depending on the oil and tuning slide grease that you are using they can mix together and can make the valve extremely sluggish. Here's what a french horn player taught me for my dependent horns:
Remove the second valve tuning slide and turn it upside down(legs up). Pour some oil down into the slide. With your bell flare also turned upside down insert the tuning slide ALL OF THE WAY IN. Then turn your bell flare right side up and let in sit there for a few minutes. Eventually gravity will take over and the oil will find it's way down into the valve. Works every time and I've never had any issues.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Yesterday at 05:18 AMHere's what a french horn player taught me for my dependent horns...

Great minds think alike. 

Quote from: kbiggs on Jul 05, 2017, 07:06AMAnother method: a horn player showed me the way they sometimes oil their valves when they have the time.

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 04, 2017, 09:24PMNormally, I wouldn't think that taking apart the rotor would be a normal part of routine lubrication. It's not designed to come apart as easily as an axial flow valve, and the tolerances are usually tighter. I don't think I've ever pulled apart a rotor.

Anyway, pull out the entire D crook, and oil it that way. You could take off the tuning slide from the crook, but that would make it take even longer.
I would disassemble the rotor, clean, dry lube and reassemble.  I showed a little girl how to do it yesterday, no problem...I just asked her if she was smarter than a horn player

They are just as easy as a an axial and are a looser tolerance for the most part, the big difference is the press fit rear cap.

See, the press fit is what I am hesitant about. I'm too ham handed to trust myself to get it off or back on without getting it on the wrong angle and damaging it.

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Yesterday at 07:50 AMSee, the press fit is what I am hesitant about. I'm too ham handed to trust myself to get it off or back on without getting it on the wrong angle and damaging it.

Mirafone gave me a great technique to take care of this:

Just place the press fit plate in position.  Do not try to tighten it.

Screw on the lower valve cap finger tight.

Using a small hammer (they provided a crab mallet for this in their kit) tap the rotor cap in the center. 

The cap will now turn a little further.  Check to make sure the spindle still turns.

Tighten the cap finger tight again.  Tap the cap again.  Check.

Repeat this until another tap doesn't allow the cap to turn.  You're done.

I've done this several times on my tuba and my trombone rotor.  Fortunately I haven't needed to do it a lot.

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Yesterday at 07:50 AMSee, the press fit is what I am hesitant about. I'm too ham handed to trust myself to get it off or back on without getting it on the wrong angle and damaging it.

Bruce's method works fine for the reinstall.  I don't like to bash against threads, but did say SMALL and TAP.  For me, though, I found that using an oil bottle cover placed over the plate makes for even seating.  Here again, though, the key is SMALL mallet and TAP, not bash

IMHO taking the rotor OUT is the greater challenge.  As mentioned in other threads, if you force it out by tapping on the screw that holds the arm down, you can bend, or even break, that screw.  Removing the screw entirely and using a small dowel that fits inside the rotor arm to tap on instead is safer all around.  And VERY easy. Just be sure you have the valve cover off before you start tapping 

This is one of the advantages of using Hetmann oils. They are designed to not interfere with one another.

Question for techs: Is it possible to install a mechanism... maybe even an Amado water key on the casing of the rotor so you can just press the button and pour oil down it?

Quote from: boneagain on Yesterday at 08:48 AMBruce's method works fine for the reinstall.  I don't like to bash against threads, but did say SMALL and TAP.  For me, though, I found that using an oil bottle cover placed over the plate makes for even seating.  Here again, though, the key is SMALL mallet and TAP, not bash

...
A crab mallet is made of light wood (it's sold in cooking supply stores) and it's hard to get a really strong BASH with it.  Someone made off with my Mirafone care kit and I bought another crab mallet to replace it.  Definitely don't want a 5 pound maul!

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 08:59 AMThis is one of the advantages of using Hetmann oils. They are designed to not interfere with one another.

Question for techs: Is it possible to install a mechanism... maybe even an Amado water key on the casing of the rotor so you can just press the button and pour oil down it?

Do any of the linkage screws go all the way through the plate?  If so, you could remove that screw and use a needle oiler.

Man, you guys are really over thinking this.

Quote from: john sandhagen on Yesterday at 06:13 AM...  I showed a little girl how to do it yesterday, no problem...

(In my best Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken voice): Just what are you saying here John?

Mine has gone completely unoiled for many of the years I've owned it. 

How often do you think they need it?

Mine has stuck once since 1971, needed disassembly and cleaning, and had the linkage start to clank a few times, that's all.  Maybe these are low maintenance items.

Maybe that's why there are so many different ways to take care of them - because none are needed. 

I've been oiling it occasionally out of a sense of duty, I'm not sure it makes much difference. 

I've heard axial valves are more demanding, but I've never played one. 

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 08:59 AMThis is one of the advantages of using Hetmann oils. They are designed to not interfere with one another.

Question for techs: Is it possible to install a mechanism... maybe even an Amado water key on the casing of the rotor so you can just press the button and pour oil down it?

Hetmann oils + Hetmann tuning slide grease= sticky valve.

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 12:21 PMMine has gone completely unoiled for many of the years I've owned it. 

Wow. I can't imagine it seals anymore.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Yesterday at 12:53 PMHetmann oils + Hetmann tuning slide grease= sticky valve.

false for me, though to be fair, the only time I ever had tuning grease of any type degrade from hetmans was when I stored my double case vertically in a locker. The bottom horn had oil leak into the tuning slides (it was upside down).

Quote from: Burgerbob on Yesterday at 01:53 PMWow. I can't imagine it seals anymore.

I was never told anything about trombone care as a youngster. 

Where do you think the wear occurs? 

I went back and looked at those photos in the repair section.  I'd have to take mine apart again to be sure, but it looks like the seal is on the outer surface of the cylinder, and the bearing surfaces are where the spindles fit inside the end cap plates. 

The seal would be compromised if the valve were dry, maybe, but I never noticed that happening, so maybe there's enough spit in the valve to fill that small gap, or vaseline from the tuning slides migrates.  That's what we used back then.  Any way it would close up next time you oiled it.

The bearing surfaces could wear, but if they wore enough to increase the gap, seems like the valve would bind pretty quickly.  Those surfaces should be oiled, I think, but I don't see how to get much in there.  Vacuum won't pull any.