TromboneChat

I've recently gotten a horn with a Hagmann valve and having prior experience only with classic rotors I was wondering if there was anything I should look out for maintenance wise. Are these instructions good, and are either of these oils good for the Hagmann (the "Valve Oil" one I presume is OK) or should I get something else? Which part should be facing the ground when actioning the valve for lubrication, the "B" or "D"?

Those instructions are pretty good, I would hold so that the opening "D" is facing up.

But I think it better to oil down the slide receiver while half-valving, but also oil the spindle "C" with a heavier oil.

Rotor and valve oil are pretty much the same thing.


Eric

I played with Hagmann valves for several years. The instructions work well (I mean, they're from the guy who invented the thing so they can't go wrong) if a bit simple. But if you use a bottle with a long tip (being very careful if the tip is metal) you can reach in to drop the oil directly in strategic places instead of just dumping it into the valve core like the instructions say. There are four holes in the inner casing/core that open to the outer casing; two big ones on the circumference between the ports, and two small ones at the back of the valve. Dropping the oil directly there is much more efficient. I also used to put a drop or two of oil on the edge of the casings so that it flows in-between the two casings. Follow the instructions on how to get the oil moving and spreading, and don't forget to put a drop of oil on the rubber O ring (otherwise it'll dry fast)

I have to disagree with Eric about using heavier oil at the spindle. My tech did that once and instructed me to do that and was adamant that they always put heavier oil on any valve spindles, but it made my valve noticeably slower. I asked Hagmann and he said to stop doing that and that best results would be attained using the same light oil as in the valve, as I had been doing before. The spindle is much longer and the space around it much tighter than other valve designs. My valve has always been faster when using the lighter oil, and always compared favourably to my colleagues' Hagmann where heavier oil was used at the spindle. Your experience may vary and you might want to try both versions (making sure you're always using compatible oils) but my experience was unequivocal.

Re : What oil to use: between the two you have, I would probably choose the piston valve oil - rotary oil is usually a little bit thicker and that valve really wants something light. But after experimenting with various piston and rotor oils (including T2 which is what Hagmann recommends), what gave me the best results was Hetmann 11 "Light Rotor" which is just between the viscosity of piston oil and most rotary oils.

I use Al Cass on my Hagmann. Rath say you can just use any old piston valve oil - mine has always been lightning fast following this advise, although the newer design ones are allegedly a bit more finicky.

Mine actually is kinda slow, the previous owner had it serviced recently but IDK what oil he used, I'll try the Hetmann 11.

The good thing about the Hagmann valve is that it is easy to service by yourself. It's fairly quick to loosen the Hex screw are remove the valve even without any further disassembly of levers etc. Sometimes the sluggishness is due to gunk inside the valve casing, that can be wiped off.

Doesn't Hagmann suggest Tromba T2 oil? They used to.

They still do.

cozzagiorgi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:18 am They still do.

Nuff said.

It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.

GMB wrote: ↑Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:57 pm It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.

Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves? Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:03 am Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?

Only in the direction the spring pulls it. It would be slower/harder to push with the thumb which is my experience. Maybe the position also affects this, and maybe Hagmann's have a longer throw.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:03 am Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves?

I will, although I'm afraid to mix oils before getting the valve serviced which I'm not sure is necessary.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:03 am

GMB wrote: ↑Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:57 pm It's gotten better with Hetmann 11. It's not scratchy or anything, TBH it might just be that the spring is a little stronger than on my rotaries.

Why don't you order the oil that Hagmann recommends for the valves? Also if the spring were stronger the valve should respond quicker, right?

Interesting. I just went back to check if they still recommend T2 and the maintenance page is still the same as always. But I just noticed that their recommendations contradict themselves between the English and French version. The English version says only and any piston oil (and names various possibilities including Al Cass) whereas the French version says specifically that Tromba T2 seems to works well, and that whatever you use should neither be too thick (horn rotor oil) nor too thin (Al Cass).

So I guess Al Cass works on a Rath but not on a Courtois


No matter what you end up using, I would say no matter how much playing you do, you should definitely maintain a strict maintenance routine and oil the valve once to twice a week. It's a lot of surface available for oxydation and it happens fast if you're not diligent.

My Hagmanns are too sluggish with Hetmann 11 (light rotor oil). It really wants a fairly light piston oil. I'm not sure the "vintage" yamaha piston oil is the best either although I haven't tried it. The regular might be a better bet although the yamaha synthetics trend on the light side. I've been using Berp Bio-Oil Light #1 piston oil (which is actually on the heavier side for a "light" oil) with really good results. I find using something different on the spindle like I would on a rotor doesn't work well on the Hagmann because that oil migrates so easily into the rest of the valve.

Also, unless you take apart the valve and clean it out completely, it does take quite a while to flush out all the old heavier oil with a new lighter oil application.

My tech recommended Hetman #1 Light Piston for inside the valve and Hetman #13 Light Bearing and Linkage for the spindle which works pretty well. Tromba T2 never worked well on mine for some reason.

After a recommendation by a bass trombone playing tech I switched to Yamaha synthetic for my Hagmanns. It works really well, much better than what I used before.

How should lubrificate infinity axial flow for Bach 42AF?which is the recomadation oil for infinity axial flow valve?