TromboneChat

I've been listening to a lot of GR lately and I'm curious about his equipment.
Does anybody have a chronology of his equipment, horns and mouthpieces.
What he played and when he played it.
It would be interesting to know how his equipment evolved over his career.

That's what I want to know also. Sorry I'm not much help in answering your question. I know he played the 70h for a long time. The Nelson Riddle and Frank Sinatra time. Then he did some other stuff before he ended up with the Kanstul. There is a site somewhere with information about all his recordings in movies and orchestras. He was in about 6000 recordings. I know from that site he told the 70h helped him to learn how to play. That's all I know. I listen him nearly everyday because I want to be reminded a bass trombone should be delicate, musical, tastefully and have a beautiful sound. I think he made that on whatever trombone he played. But sorry I don't know much what he played.

Leif

He played a 70H early on, starting in the mid ‘60’s he switched to an Olds called the P-22 George Roberts model (single valve, 9”bell) and stayed with that until Olds went out of business in 1978. Then he played a Holton 183 for a short time, which was originally Holton’s George Roberts model, (also single valve, 9” bell) before switching back to a Conn at some point (110 H?) ) sometime in the mid 80’s?) before ending his career on the Kanstul.

Here’s a link to an interview from 2004 that Mr. Roberts did for the Online Trombone Journal. In the interview he talks a bit about his instruments and mouthpieces. This interview is definitely worth a read, if you haven’t already.

https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=257

Thanks for the "what horn when" info! Does anybody know his progression on mouthpieces?

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:05 am Thanks for the "what horn when" info! Does anybody know his progression on mouthpieces?

Just remember. I can give you George Roberts' actual trombone and his actual mouthpiece and it's very unlikely you will sound like him. Nor will you sound like him with several years' practice on that stuff.

Your time is best spent working on finding how you can sound as good as possible on your equipment. Make changes when you discover the equipment is holding you back. And make changes so that you continue to improve, not necessarily because [insert trombone God name here] uses it.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:09 am

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:05 am Thanks for the "what horn when" info! Does anybody know his progression on mouthpieces?

Just remember. I can give you George Roberts' actual trombone and his actual mouthpiece and it's very unlikely you will sound like him. Nor will you sound like him with several years' practice on that stuff.

Your time is best spent working on finding how you can sound as good as possible on your equipment. Make changes when you discover the equipment is holding you back. And make changes so that you continue to improve, not necessarily because [insert trombone God name here] uses it.

Despite your well intentioned advice, I'm still curious about the evolution of his mouthpiece choices.

Deleted.

I remember have read in an interview he stayed with Olds until 1974 and then moved to Holton. I remember this because he was not particular happy about having his name on the Olds-P22 when he moved on. I dont forget this and dont mix this up because my Olds-P22 is from 1974 and my Holton-TR183 is also from 1974. I have thought about this each time I play these horns that the Olds and the Holton I own is from that same year when he made the transition. Unfortunately I can not make a reference to the source but I'm pretty sure about having read these things in an interview with him. I have always considered it to be facts and wrote this information in my documentation about my trombone models

/Tom

Deleted.

George did have a brief relationship with Yamaha and he started workin with them in a consultative/protype producing way. They sent him his first prototype made to his specs - along with a bill!!! george sent the horn back and never worked with them again.

There is no major development trail for his mouthpiece, he developed just the one mouthpiece with Burt Herrick, that was the one. Each of teh producers were given the measurements they developed together and were allowed to make the model, which is just a 1.5 G slightly enhanced. It may be that there are some tiny difference between them but that would be due to production methods and machinists tolerances etc. I think its probably true tyo say George spent more time playing an ordinary 1.5 than he did his own model, but that might not be so, he did however establish his reputation and create his sound and techniques on a Bach 1.5.

I own one of those GR trombones from Olds that has his name on it but it was after he had left. It is tuning in the bell. Its a nice playing horn. You could by special order get a 9.5" bell on a GR I believe though John L is the expert on these matters not me but it wouild mean there are some out there.

Doug

I had the privilege of hearing GR in concert in 1963 while a HS school student, then again in 1965, 1966, and 1968. I did not exactly have a lesson, but in those last few years I sat with him in receptions (drinking a lot of scotch with him) pulling out my Bach 1.5 G and having him tell me how great that mouthpiece was. He was at his prime then and playing the Olds P-22 on the Bach 1.5 G, but I later heard stories that he had Burt Herrick tinker with those mpcs.

After he retired and moved to my area in the late 1980's early 1990's he was fooling around with Yamaha, Kanstul, and Marcinkowiez but he was not playing that much and was having health problems. Never the less, he still sounded the same as when I first heard him. He didn't like talking about equipment that much. He loved talking about Sinatra, Nelson Riddle, Mancini, trombone players he worked with, and his musical experiences. He also loved telling the dirtiest jokes I have ever heard.

When anyone played for him that was a pretty good player, he never talked much about equipment. Just was optimistic and complimentary. A lot of people know that he was famously known as "Mr. Bass Trombone" in the studios, but among people that knew him his nickname was "Mr. Nice Guy".

pompatus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:46 pmHere’s a link to an interview from 2004 that Mr. Roberts did for the Online Trombone Journal. In the interview he talks a bit about his instruments and mouthpieces. This interview is definitely worth a read, if you haven’t already.

https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=257

Great read!

Deleted.

For those who don't remember (or who have never heard) the George Roberts bass trombone sound, you can get some good examples by listening to the 1959 Nelson Riddle album "Joy of Living" which reveals George's velvet tone on several tracks.

Such as:
and:
and:
and:
and:
and:
etc.

Dated, perhaps - but I love it!

.

Well the catch is that not every horn he endorsed actually used his leadpipe. I know not all the Holton TR 183s used it and the Conn 110hs and Yamahas sure didn't use it.

Other than a prototype Yamaha never made a George Roberts model - they blew it with their maners!

Think about this....
He always sounded the same....
You cannot tell what he is playing on.

Chris

Deleted. Sorry I wasted everyone's time.

True, but in Georges case I think he would have sounded great on a tea pot if he could get the mouthpiece in the spout!... Natural talent.

DougHulme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:46 am Other than a prototype Yamaha never made a George Roberts model - they blew it with their maners!

Yamaha seems to have that effect on people. Ko-Ichiro Yamamoto just dropped them for Shires. I have heard that it is very difficult for signature artists to get favorable treatment from Yamaha.

.

Schlitz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:25 pm

paulyg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Yamaha seems to have that effect on people. Ko-Ichiro Yamamoto just dropped them for Shires. I have heard that it is very difficult for signature artists to get favorable treatment from Yamaha.

Doug Yeo too. His horn isn’t stock, probably never was, and the Butler mods are fantastic.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think that's true. Yamaha may very well have assembled his personal instruments with even more careful attention to detail than their normally excellent standards, but as far as I know there were no design differences. Doug was - and I'm sure still is - very proud of that instrument and that partnership, and my sense was that his relationship with the company was always excellent.

To be fair Doug Yeo speaks very highly of them and he has spent a long long time working with them so I guess he at least is happy. Not sure how his work with Butler and using his Yamaha as a 'chassis' sits with them or if that marks the end of a beautiful relationship or maybe Yamaha will start making carbon? They most certainly did not treat George however with the courtesy and respect his eminent position deserved - Yamaha's loss Ziggy's gain.

... I wrote that at the same time as Gabes post so I edit to say I concur with what he says as well... DEoug

YouTube is bottomless!

I just encountered this excerpt from the George Roberts' Sextet 1960 recording, "Bottoms Up"


Note the personnel (including John Williams on piano).

Lots of nice photos of George through the years!

What I find interesting about George Roberts is his musicality, his personality and sound. Im inspired of his playing, but nobody can copy another player. Thats impossible. We might have to choose something very different to get close. We can learn about style, music and sound but we cant copy.
The interesting thing about him is he was among the first to open some doors for the bass trombone. He influenced both players, composers, arranger and listeners. He even influenced the symphony players.

I admit I tried some of his equipment but many of them doesnt fit me at all. We are all a little bit interesting in what other trombonists play. Nothing wrong with that. The clue is to find something that work for us and practice to learn our equipment no matter what it is. Dont you agree? One thing we can try to copy from G.R. is practice, be creative and be our self.

Leif

Well said Leif.

Chris

paulyg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm

DougHulme wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:46 am Other than a prototype Yamaha never made a George Roberts model - they blew it with their maners!

Yamaha seems to have that effect on people. Ko-Ichiro Yamamoto just dropped them for Shires. I have heard that it is very difficult for signature artists to get favorable treatment from Yamaha.

I thought Ko is playing on an Edwards?

GBP wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:47 am

paulyg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Yamaha seems to have that effect on people. Ko-Ichiro Yamamoto just dropped them for Shires. I have heard that it is very difficult for signature artists to get favorable treatment from Yamaha.

I thought Ko is playing on an Edwards?

He left Yamaha and went to Edwards for about a year, and then just recently went to Shires.

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:42 pm What I find interesting about George Roberts is his musicality, his personality and sound. Im inspired of his playing, but nobody can copy another player. Thats impossible. We might have to choose something very different to get close. We can learn about style, music and sound but we cant copy.
The interesting thing about him is he was among the first to open some doors for the bass trombone. He influenced both players, composers, arranger and listeners. He even influenced the symphony players.

I admit I tried some of his equipment but many of them doesnt fit me at all. We are all a little bit interesting in what other trombonists play. Nothing wrong with that. The clue is to find something that work for us and practice to learn our equipment no matter what it is. Dont you agree? One thing we can try to copy from G.R. is practice, be creative and be our self.

Leif

Couldn't agree more, but as usual anyone who says something sensible and true will be ignored in favour some trivial nonsense as sadly seems to be the way of things on here lately........

BellEnd

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:42 pm What I find interesting about George Roberts is his musicality, his personality and sound. Im inspired of his playing, but nobody can copy another player. Thats impossible. We might have to choose something very different to get close. We can learn about style, music and sound but we cant copy.
The interesting thing about him is he was among the first to open some doors for the bass trombone. He influenced both players, composers, arranger and listeners. He even influenced the symphony players.

I admit I tried some of his equipment but many of them doesnt fit me at all. We are all a little bit interesting in what other trombonists play. Nothing wrong with that. The clue is to find something that work for us and practice to learn our equipment no matter what it is. Dont you agree? One thing we can try to copy from G.R. is practice, be creative and be our self.

Leif

But don’t you think you have to start somewhere? I started out on a Bach because that is what everyone was playing at the time. I ended up on an Edwards and have played them ever since. My first Edwards had Thayer valves but now I am on rotors. My hero has been Don Harwood. I don’t sound like him, but approach many things in a similar way he did.

We have the whole TromboneChat Bingo card crossed out here. An innocent question, answered pretty well, good discussion, then some of the same posters asking why he should even ask, some light disparaging of equipment and why it even matters, and bringing up why George Roberts was literally Jesus.

I'm no George Roberts myself, but I definitely sounded the closest on a 70H and my GR Replica CE mouthpiece rather than anything else. Is that so hard to accept? That equipment does make some tiny difference?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:32 pm We have the whole TromboneChat Bingo card crossed out here. An innocent question, answered pretty well, good discussion, then some of the same posters asking why he should even ask, some light disparaging of equipment and why it even matters, and bringing up why George Roberts was literally Jesus.

I'm no George Roberts myself, but I definitely sounded the closest on a 70H and my GR Replica CE mouthpiece rather than anything else. Is that so hard to accept? That equipment does make some tiny difference?

You are quite right. Equipment does make a tiny difference.

Chris

GBP wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:52 pm

Savio wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:42 pm What I find interesting about George Roberts is his musicality, his personality and sound. Im inspired of his playing, but nobody can copy another player. Thats impossible. We might have to choose something very different to get close. We can learn about style, music and sound but we cant copy.
The interesting thing about him is he was among the first to open some doors for the bass trombone. He influenced both players, composers, arranger and listeners. He even influenced the symphony players.

I admit I tried some of his equipment but many of them doesnt fit me at all. We are all a little bit interesting in what other trombonists play. Nothing wrong with that. The clue is to find something that work for us and practice to learn our equipment no matter what it is. Dont you agree? One thing we can try to copy from G.R. is practice, be creative and be our self.

Leif

But don’t you think you have to start somewhere? I started out on a Bach because that is what everyone was playing at the time. I ended up on an Edwards and have played them ever since. My first Edwards had Thayer valves but now I am on rotors. My hero has been Don Harwood. I don’t sound like him, but approach many things in a similar way he did.

Of course GBP, we have to find our own path and work hard. Thats the clue. Lots of good trombones and to learn and be inspired by a big name like Don Harwood is a wise move. Its so good to have a goal to work against!

Burgerbob, George Roberts isnt Jesus, but he is one of the biggest name in the history of bass trombone.

To all of you fellow trombone players, we all wonder what our heroes play. But like I told it isnt sure it will fit us. Still most thing can be learned. I tried the Kanstul GR mouthpiece but just didnt like it. I have a 70h and I wondered if something what was wrong with it. Couldnt make everything work. But Chris tried it and he sounded fantastic on it. Then I understood I had to work and practice it. Simple as that. Right now I play that horn in an orchestra and it works terrific!

What can we learn from this? Yes its our attitude, its our will to work and practice. And not to dissmiss anything to quickly. Its mostly our self which is the problem not the trombone.

A final word about George Roberts. There is nothing wrong to listen, be inspired and learn from him. Like I told he has a great musicallity, wonderful sound. He was creative and put the bass trombone on the map not only in our trombone world. Today there is hundreds of really good bass players. I listen as many as I can and its lot of wonderful inspiration to get. We can learn something from all of them. Do as GBP, find one of them and work at it. Still listen GR sometimes if you have time. His musicality is something everyone can learn from....

To many words, have to take a coffee and practice….
Leif

Leif wrote... A final word about George Roberts. There is nothing wrong to listen, be inspired and learn from him. Like I told he has a great musicallity, wonderful sound. He was creative and put the bass trombone on the map not only in our trombone world. Today there is hundreds of really good bass players. I listen as many as I can and its lot of wonderful inspiration to get. We can learn something from all of them. Do as GBP, find one of them and work at it. Still listen GR sometimes if you have time. His musicality is something everyone can learn from....

Amen!

DougHulme wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:02 am
Amen!

In all the years I've been reasonably active in the community, I can't say I ever recall a time when someone has asked, "I wish to not practice but sound like [insert player name; how might I achieve greatness without putting in any effort?" but it often seems as though that is the question asked based on answers provided. This isn't to say that answer is wrong, but it is incomplete.

Afterall, if we were talking about sacbut performance, interpretation of Arthur Pyror solos, or say early 20th century British orchestral music an important consideration is the authenticity of the instrument. In all three cases it involves something invariably smaller than we play presently. Merely being closer in time does not make the question of instrument choice of a musician any less pertinent nor less interesting. Indeed, it might make it more pertinent as people are still around who might be able to answer the question whereas that is obviously not the case when instruments hundreds of years old even if we can make a reasonably solid guess at practical applications.

Knowing what George Roberts played is unimportant for one's own development, naturally, but that is not the only reason why one would ask such a question. It may well be that it's just an interesting question. Sometimes a cigar... is just a cigar.

Well said, Matt.

I've recently gotten into playing bass guitar again after many years away from it. I played a lot more bass in the basement of my house as a teenager than trombone, and over the course of a few years there I owned a couple of basses that are now valuable either to players or collectors: a vintage Fender Mustang, a Rickenbacker 4001, even an early production Fodera Monarch made custom for my teacher.

I'm watching a lot of bass videos on youtube, and I'm naturally very curious about what instruments the players I enjoy are playing. Of course if I want to really play like any of them I'm going to have to practice a lot more than I have time for, but I can't help but notice that most of my favorite bass sounds come from a player holding a Fender Jazz. Turns out there are a lot of variations on the Fender Jazz and a lot more elements to the sound on a recording or in a live show than just the brand of bass, but I bought myself an American made Fender Jazz for not a lot of money, and I love just picking it up and trying to play some fun bass lines.

Anything wrong with that? No. Am I taking any gigs away from my professional bass player friends? No. Could I get better as a bass player by practicing the used Indonesian-made Yamaha I picked up first for $60 until the neck falls off? Of course I could. But I had the money to buy myself a nicer bass that I wanted, so I did.

I also bought a copy of Geddy Lee's Big Beautiful Book of Bass, a book all about the gear, the fun of collecting it, and the fun of talking about it and taking beautiful photographs of it. Did it make Geddy Lee a better bass player to do all that collecting and research on the instrument he's passionate about? You know what? It probably did.

I know that my time working at the Shires factory, gaining a working knowledge about the interaction of trombone components and players made me a MUCH better player than I was before that experience.

So I'm with BurgerBob. Let's please lay off the lectures to people who just love trombones and trombonists and are curious about all aspects of the instrument.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:35 am Think about this....
He always sounded the same....
You cannot tell what he is playing on.

Chris

So...did he always sound the same because it didn't matter what he played?

Or did he always sound the same because he declined to play anything he couldn't sound like himself on?

I surrender. Out of here.

Chris

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:33 pm ...

So...did he always sound the same because it didn't matter what he played?

Or did he always sound the same because he declined to play anything he couldn't sound like himself on?

Probably both. When he bought a horn he would test it and probably reject anything that it was hard to get "his" sound out of. On the other hand, his sound concept was set and he would work to achieve that on whatever he was playing.

If you read my posts, what is wrong with what I say? Please read all of them before you answer. What is wrong when Chris say we cant tell what horn it is when we listen GR play? Nobody can? I mention music. Burgerbob; I have never seen you mention that word in all your time here? Why is that? Just curious and no harm ment. Just curious.

Anyway, it seems to be dangerous to mention the name George Roberts. Or to work or practice? Or to listen......time changes……..

Cant understand why this bring up so much heath? Every aspect matters of course, but music is be the biggest part of all we do. My last word…..I promiss.

Leif

.

Savio wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:43 pm Cant understand why this bring up so much heath? Every aspect matters of course, but music is be the biggest part of all we do. My last word…..I promiss.

Leif

Leif, I love you and Chris. I have learned a lot from both of you on this forum.

However, it is oh-so-tiring to see the same "equipment doesn't matter, it's entirely the player" comments anytime anyone wants to have a small discussion about equipment. Sometimes, it's valid, when it's a high school player looking to spend $9000 on a Thein, or something in that vein.

When someone asks an entirely innocent question about GR's horns and mouthpieces, it seems rather out of place. We are all well aware that GR was a great musician and trombonist, and that he would have sounded pretty darn good on just about anything, but that's not the question, is it?

I'm all for a discussion of GR's musicianship and his recordings, etc. Maybe it's even valid in this thread. But not in a way that seems to put down the person asking the original question for even asking it.

I think Gabe speaks a bit to the disconnect here on the forum that was evident on the previous forum, but maybe didn't rear it's head quite so often there. Equipment does make a difference. To say otherwise is just being disingenuous. The equipment is just a means to make music, but it's much easier to get to that beautiful music-making point with something that you can play easily and make the sound that you hear in your head with. That equipment is going to be different for every person, but for people striving for a similar goal, might be more similar than not.

Before everyone gets the wrong idea (if they didn't already), I talk a lot about equipment here because it's easy to talk about. We can talk about history, show pictures, share our impressions. Talking about the end product (music) isn't as easy for me via text, so I don't participate in those discussions as much.

Lately, it seems like discussing just about anything with bass trombone ends up with GR being held up as the gold standard, bar none, and why would you ask differently?

Perhaps it's just time for me to leave and let the discussion continue as is.

It is kind of crazy. The thread about Bachs, we agree there are bad ones. There is a whole thread about playing 1-1/2G mouthpieces and how they create a certain sound. People search out Elkhart Conns because of a special sound. Now we are saying none of this matters.

In my first post I wrote I'm also curious about what he played. We got some answers and I'm happy with that. All of us are interested in gear. And I agree, music isn't easy to talk about. As all thread's here it's easy to get out of topic, but in fact it wasn't me that brought it out...

Yes I talk about 70h and Bach 1 1/2g. To day there is a lot of good choices, as I even tell it before in this thread.

But all I have told in all this years is they are still a good choice. I have always told there is lot of good choices today. It wasn't so many before. Maybe the old are interesting because they are more handmade, and they vary more. Some can be really good, some not so good. Today the consistency is better and quality control is what all companies set high up.

Never met a trombonist which are not interested in gear.

Burgerbob, all of you, I love you all and maybe we meet one day. I could explain more but with my English I think it's best to spare you

I go and eat breakfast and then I look forward to play in a local opera.

Have a good day all!

Well I will wade in here and I do not care if anyone tries to "hurt my feelings." Middle ground folks, middle ground. Seems like even here when someone offers a contrary opinion in a constructive way it seems to read by some "you suck and don't know what you're talking about." Unfortunately John L deleted all of his posts before I could read them so I'm missing that perspective. Chris's comments were NOT inflammatory at all and I'm trying to figure out why some would think so. To some equipment matters very little. I had a conversation with a very prominent LA trombonist who told me there was zero difference between an Elkhart 62H and a original Greenhoe Conn based instrument. My experience differs greatly from his. So am I calling this guy an idiot because he feels that way? No. It doesn't matter to me what his opinion is because I have my own and they differ. Personally I love the sounds of George Roberts, Paul Faulise, Dick Hixon, and Tony Studd to name a few. But I don't sound like them and I don't try to sound like them. I sound like me. Lief your comments were NOT offensive in the least and are well respected because it's your perspective. Personally I love what I play on. But I'm unique. Several months ago I participated an a Game of Thrones recording/video project in New York City with 40 amazing trombonists, bass trombonists, and tuba players. SO many instrument manufacturers represented! Each player with his/her individual sound that somehow managed to work together(think sarcasm). During one of the tunes, during a break in the action, I started looking at all of the various instruments. Only then did I notice that of all of the bass trombonists represented the 3 of us playing vintage instruments were sitting together. Represented were an custom Holton 185, Holton TR 180, and an Elkhart 62H. No one cared what we played and we didn't care what they played. We all sounded good-great even and the end result was an amazing evening spent together making music and socializing. We all experiment. Many times WAAAAAY too much for our own good but we can't help ourselves. We all have too many choices I believe and we get caught up in the latest and greatest. As I've stated before here we are a copy cat society and anyone who does it a different way is wrong. Well that type of thinking is wrong imho. I don't care what you play. But when we work together play in tune with a good sound, be a part of the section, and be a nice person. The rest is a waste of time.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:43 am Deleted. Sorry I wasted everyone's time.

Hi John!

I don't know why you deleted your post, and I think personally that is sad because your post is often very interesting to read.

I do remember you asked me in one of those posts to post picture of my Olds P-22 from 1974 because you were interested to know if any details were special on my horn since it was in the transition year.

I have not had the chance to take any pictures yet because I've been to busy, but I will do, and post them to this thread as you asked. The pictures have some relevance to the subject since GR did play that horn.

/Tom