TromboneChat

Bach 11C for alto?

For me too small, but many guys use it

Does it give the result you're looking for? If so, then yes!!

Yes

Big Yes from me. To preface, I prefer that smaller, brighter, German alto sound and most of my alto playing is solo rep although excerpts are slowly becoming more of a focus. When testing mouthpieces I found my 12Cs to be a little too shrill and trumpety (which would be perfect for Beethoven 5 though). My 7Cs and even moreso my 6.5 sized pieces were very tubby and it felt harder to get that clarity. However that sound, although it may not have fallen in line with my sound concept and playing needs, definitely would have blended with a bigger section and orchestra (Brahms 2?) much better. I just recently bought a Bousfield Alto mouthpiece (and a new alto) though so we’ll see how I like that after I get used to it.

The Bach 12E I used for Alto in the late 8O-ies and early 90-iies is perfect If there exists an 11E I would want one because that rim is closer to the 6 3/4 C I play on small tenors today.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:55 pm The Bach 12E I used for Alto in the late 8O-ies and early 90-iies is perfect If there exists an 11E I would want one because that rim is closer to the 6 3/4 C I play on small tenors today.

/Tom

you can get a Bach srew rim mouthpiece with a 12 E unterpart and a 11 C rim.
Take a look into the Bach mouthpiece manual page 10 and 31.

https://www.bachbrass.com/application/f ... 89_web.pdf

The best piece I've found to work on mine is a Bach 15A from NY...

I have tried a 3, a 7, a 6 1/2al, a 12, and a couple 12cs on it. The 15A gives the best sound and intonation in all registers and dynamics. Also it calms down the articulations a bit!

I use a Wedge 96C for my alto, which is closer to a Bach 12C. But, I've tried the 11C and it works pretty well. It's a nice size on a typical alto trombone. One thing to keep in mind is that if you don't play on an alto regularly, a mouthpiece that is more different than your tenor mouthpiece will be more uncomfortable and won't 'settle in' if you don't give it a lot of face time. I suspect that for a lot of people who only occasionally play alto, this factors into why a lot of trombonists tend to go with larger mouthpieces.

But, give your body time to adjust to a smaller mouthpiece on an alto, and the sound warms up and generally they can work great. In my experience, the biggest consideration with mouthpiece size is slotting: too big *or* too small and the partials start to get really wacky. Altos seem to be much more sensitive to this than tenors. The 11C seems to be right in the middle of the "sweet spot" for the best-aligned partials.

Although, the *best* mouthpiece I've ever found in this regard is the Denis Wick Heritage 12CS, which he designed specifically for slotting on altos.

Marcikiewicz ET7, the Dave Steinmeyer model works really well for me.

I tried it, didn't bond with it on my bach 39, but the Bach 7C worked fine. If the shoe fits, wear it!

11C not suitable, only 11E and 12E

Glog wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:08 am 11C not suitable, only 11E and 12E

I've play a lot of alto in a section and mostly used an 11C for 30+ years (with a Yamaha instrument). I think it is a good, all-around balanced, option for range, clarity and blend. That being said, I've also found that cups shallower than 'C" depth generally make section blending a challenge. Plus, as a large bore player (with a typical default air stream attuned to filling a large instrument), the tendency for me to unconsciously overblow a small instrument is strong. The smaller the cup, the more economy and efficiency of air stream becomes important. Inefficient overblowing often tires many players very quickly. Finally, for me the shallow cup really restricts the ability to balance up to the section while riding on top with a good, unforced sound. I tried a lot of other MPs over the years, notably the 15D for a while with some success, but ultimately abandoned it because of blend challenges.

Many players prefer larger mouthpieces for their comfort, greater ease of section blending as well as the closer-to-tenor blow. Its completely understandable because it also increases the feeling of security on a less familiar instrument; but IMHO I think the effort invested in trying to have an legit alto trombone timbre is worth it .

Not gospel, just some personal observations...everyone's different. I dropped this because I certainly don't see the 11C as "unsuitable" or that there are "only" two viable alternatives.

Try everything,use what works for you

As Sam Burtis would say

It depends on the alto. Most altos, in my experience, don't work as well with a stock tenor shank as with a shank designed specifically for alto like the Elliot 'Alto' series (or Alto S for the Conns). It's been awhile since I tried my Wessex but even something that large seems to work better with an alto shank (525/547). My former Conn 36 and Jin Bao horns also likewise had a similar experience. I have not really had much time to blow on Shires, Edwards, or Rath altos. I did briefly play an Edwards alto at Dillon a few years ago that worked great on the only mouthpiece I had at the time, which was not an alto piece, but I have no idea if an alto piece would have made it better or if the design was different enough from what I'm used to to work with a traditional shank.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:31 am It depends on the alto. Most altos, in my experience, don't work as well with a stock tenor shank as with a shank designed specifically for alto like the Elliot 'Alto' series (or Alto S for the Conns).

Do you know if the Bach 39 is among those that would require the adjusted shank? I currently use a faxx 7c with mine, and haven't really had any issues.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:17 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:31 am It depends on the alto. Most altos, in my experience, don't work as well with a stock tenor shank as with a shank designed specifically for alto like the Elliot 'Alto' series (or Alto S for the Conns).

Do you know if the Bach 39 is among those that would require the adjusted shank? I currently use a faxx 7c with mine, and haven't really had any issues.

If you haven't seen any issues, you don't have any issues.

I know my Conn 36H has a slightly different shank and it needs the Conn 7C it came with in order for all the partials to line up. I don't think the Bach 39 had the same situation.

I'm not the biggest 39 fan so take with a grain of salt. That said, I played one I'm college because the department had one. It's actually the horn I was playing when I bought an alto piece and the alto shank did work better with it. It isn't that the model needs such a shank to fit. It's the taper that makes the horn respond better and more in tune.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:17 amDo you know if the Bach 39 is among those that would require the adjusted shank?

The Bach 39 takes an ordinary Bach mouthpiece. When I bought my horn in 1982 it came with a Bach 15e that has an ordinary shank. The 15e tells me the Bach 39 is designed with a shallow mouthpiece cup in mind. The 15e was to small back then (not anymore when I tried) so I bought a 12e which better matched the 12c I played. I remember at that time I did not think the 12c fitted the Bach 39.

I got some troubles with the rim when my primary horn changed to a Conn 88h with a Wick 6BL mouthpiece. I then changed to a Bach 48A on the alto and that combination worked fairly well but when I finally understood the Wick was the problem and I changed to a Hammond 12M I could return to the 12e.

My primary smallbore mouthpiece now is a Bach 6 3/4 C and that is close enough to a 11c. I'm thinking of getting a 11e for the alto or why not e 6 3/4e if that's possible? I have tried both a Hammon 14s and 14xs and the Christian Lindberg 15cl but don't think the sound is my best sound. Still the 12e is the one I return to.

After I read this thread I will now try my 11c with my alto today. I bought that from a friend a few years ago but it was never in the herd back then, and at the time I never thought of it as an alternative. I do hesitate it is a good match since I've never thought the other "c" mouthpieces fit. I will compare the 11c to the others. Last time I played alto in public was two years ago in Berlioz symphony fantastic and then I decided to pick the one I know best which is the 12e. At that concert I switched between my Bach 36BO with a Hammond 12M and the Bach 39 with a Bach 12e.

I wiped the dust of my Bach 39 alto and cleaned the slide and leadpipe to set up some tests of mouthpieces. I decided to try all the alto pieces I found and all the 11c-ish.

The alto bunch:
Bach 15E & 12E, Hammond 14XS, CL 15, Yamaha 48A.

The not alto bunch:
Bach Mnt Vernon 18, Bach Mnt Vernon 12C, Bach 11C, 6 3/4C, Kanstul Kaplan & Kaplan NY, Hammond 14S, Marcinkiewicz ET4*L.Ulyate, ETL.7*J.Wigham, ET5*M.Gillette, ET2*L.McDougall, ET3*C.Looper, ET7*D Steinmeier and a Yamaha Nils Landgren.

The test was a Bb major scale from Bb to Bb one octave and then continued a fourth up to a sustained high Eb. I played those notes a myriad of times now, changing a lot of mouthpieces. I soon realised all those mouthpieces are good and can be used with my Bach 39 alto but there were differences

From these 19 mouthpieces I found the advantage of the Bach 15E and Bach12E to be especially in soft playing and they let me have a nice "ping" to the sound and particularly I like this as an advantage in the highest register. I soon decided the "ping" in the sound when I play soft is what I like and want from my alto mouthpiece

The rest of the test then was to see which of the mouthpieces could come closest to this. As someone suggested the ET7*D Steinmeier is really good for alto and I think this is as close to an 11e I need. It also has that "ping" in the sound. I will probably try this next time I play in a group because the rim is a little closer to what I usually play and it is the closest of the non alto mouthpieces that gives the sound I want.

After the ET7*D Steinmeier comes the Rest of the alto pieces. They are very clear and alto like but to me a little loud especially the CL15, The Yamaha 48A was the mouthpiece that was least alto like and had least of the "ping"

After them it was equally between the 12C, 11C, the Kanstuls, the Nils Landgren and rest of the 11C-ish Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces. They are all good for the alto but gives more the sound of a small tenor than of an alto This might be good if that is what you want. Sometimes you might want your alto to sound more like a small bore tenor especially if the rest of the section plays large bore trombones and the music will be loud. The Bach 6 3/4C I usually play is the mouthpiece I think gives the least alto like sound.

The best alto mouthpieces from this test for me and my Bach 39 alto was the 15E, 12E and ET7*D Steinmeier.

/Tom

I've never tried the 12E, though I might need to consider it. I do not play alto very often, so I haven't really developed enough as a player to really know what works better for me on the Bach 39. My small bore mouthpiece is also a 6 3/4C, and I kinda wish they made a 6 3/4 E. They currently only have the 12E and 15E, and I don't see Bach changing things up.

However, Doug Elliot could come up with something that works, that I'm sure of.

Yeah, my experience somewhat parallels waterwailonman's experience. The "E" depth Bach and comparable are great to a large degree because of the way they distinguish themselves as more alto sounds and less as tenor sounds. However, they're just way too small for me and I think they're also too shallow to blend well with other tenors. But again, grain of salt, I'm a bright player.

So having something that has a backbore similar to those but with a slightly deeper cup and a larger rim works much better for me. I ended up settling on an XT104N/C/CAlto. It helps me get that 'ping' as well as more flexibility for me to have both a brighter alto sound as well as blend with larger tenor sections. I imagine other pieces designed for alto with a similar specs (e.g. from the Griego, Greg Black, etc.) would have similar properties but I've honestly never tried any because I like the Elliott I'm currently on.