Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

ttf_Brisko · Post by **ttf_Brisko** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:46 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 30, 2008, 12:32PMActually some very big mpc:s are used here in Sweden. It is because Swedes have a very stiff upper lip. At least some of us.

Hmmm. Is this because of all the snus?

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:09 pm

Quote from: Brisko on Apr 30, 2008, 12:46PMHmmm. Is this because of all the snus?

Brisko: I think you have a point there. I had a lesson long time ago with a Swedish tuba player: He was not happy with my playing and put his "snus" on my notestand and did play it how it should be, then he put the "snus" back in his mouth and did ask me to play again. I could not play anything and was laughing all the day. I think you know him Svenne?

ttf_CRWV · Post by **ttf_CRWV** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:44 pm

...

what exactly is a snus?

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu May 01, 2008 3:51 am

well, "snus" is not good for your playing and your mother would not like you to use it

.........

ttf_CRWV · Post by **ttf_CRWV** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:03 am

ohhhhhh...

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Thu May 01, 2008 11:15 am

Quote from: savio on May 01, 2008, 03:51AMwell, "snus" is not good for your playing and your mother would not like you to use it

.........

I'm afraid I'm none the wiser.

I can think of all sorts of things that satisfy the above two criteria

ttf_Brisko · Post by **ttf_Brisko** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:13 pm

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu May 01, 2008 2:22 pm

I met a Swede recently who uses that stuff... different....

but I suppose I'd better put the moderator's hat on and suggest that we get back on topic...
one of my students showed me two of the Wick Heritage range recently.. the 2AL and 2NAL... they both seemed much bigger now than those sizes were in the 1970's... bigger than many Bach 1 1/2G's I've seen. The 2AL was very close to my wide-rim Mt Vernon 1 1/2G in size.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_CRWV · Post by **ttf_CRWV** » Fri May 02, 2008 5:20 pm

for me, they felt akin to the rath b2w (2AL, i didn't try the 2nal)

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:06 am

I think the Heritage 2AL is bigger than the old style. The inner rim diameter is a little smaller than my mouthpieces in the 1.5ish range, but not much, there is not enough difference for me to be able to easily switch between the sizes, which is why I sold the H 2AL. I really liked it and when I bought it I was playing a 1-1/4 so it was easy to switch to the 2AL for lighter parts. I wonder how the Heritage 1AL compares to the old model and the Rath 1-1/2.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon May 05, 2008 10:36 am

The Heritage 1AL actually feels smaller than the 2AL !! probably the thinner rim on the 1AL. The 1AL is a copy of an older Schilke 58... which tend to feel smaller than they are.... none of them play like the Rath 1 1/2.... or a Mt Vernon Bach... they have a unique feel and sound that will appeal to some players but not all.... like any mouthpiece.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Sat May 10, 2008 12:59 am

Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1.5G?

A large factor in who does use a VB 1.5 must be whether you've found the a good one. If everyone had access to some of nicest Mt Vernon examples, perhaps a lot more people would use them. Maybe that's part of the reason why the 1.5G was more widely used in the Mt Vernon era. Just stroll into a shop and buy one.

Today, it's possible to try many modern Bach 1.5G mouthpieces and never find one that satisfies. I've yet to find one that's better than only-just-acceptable, but then I'm not prepared to spend crazy money on a Mt Vernon piece. If I DID want a good 1.5G mouthpiece, we can go to Rath, Griego, Greg Black and no doubt Doug Elliott too, to find a reliably good 1.5G sized piece. Yes, all these are quite expensive, but didn't the last MV 1.5G on ebay go for something like $400?

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:24 am

Quote from: poozer on May 10, 2008, 12:59AMWho in their right mind plays a Bach 1.5G?

A large factor in who does use a VB 1.5 must be whether you've found the a good one. If everyone had access to some of nicest Mt Vernon examples, perhaps a lot more people would use them. Maybe that's part of the reason why the 1.5G was more widely used in the Mt Vernon era. Just stroll into a shop and buy one.

Today, it's possible to try many modern Bach 1.5G mouthpieces and never find one that satisfies. I've yet to find one that's better than only-just-acceptable, but then I'm not prepared to spend crazy money on a Mt Vernon piece. If I DID want a good 1.5G mouthpiece, we can go to Rath, Griego, Greg Black and no doubt Doug Elliott too, to find a reliably good 1.5G sized piece. Yes, all these are quite expensive, but didn't the last MV 1.5G on ebay go for something like $400?

That's a very fair point... and even some Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's are not great... so when we talk about this mouthpiece and that mouthpiece, we are doing no more than talk about the examples that we have tried or that we own, and each and every one is different. Perhaps this variability is the single most frustrating thing about mouthpieces.
Some makes and time periods are more likely to good than others, but it is hard... and I have to say that the CNC production has had little influence on consistency of finished product.... care in final polishing seems as important.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat May 10, 2008 6:49 am

I got a Greg Black 1 1/2 some days ago and its exactly the same as my very old Bach 1 1/2. Rim is exact the same both in shape and size. Cup is almost the same. The only difference is my Bach has a hair bigger throat and its a hair less weight. Sound is almost the same but maybe the Bach is some more colorful. In my mouthpiece search I could never put the Bach away and have mostly played it all the time and think I will continue play it. Funny it was so very close to the Greg Black. All the Bach mouthpieces must be more different than I thought

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:13 am

And then I have tried them ALL which some of the moderators advice us to do. I will not give the same advice because. A teacher would make it faster and in my case without using so much money. I had a mouthpiece I couldn't leave all the time but still believed all the others are better. For some of us a Bach 1 1/2g is the best choice. But there is some good out of the trying; I have practised more and I have learned some more.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:02 pm

I have also tried the "snus" 1 1/2g and my advice is "stay away" don't even look at it

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:00 am

Sorry my last post...it was out of topic.... I have played the Greg Black some more and there is some difference from my old Bach. Its more secure to play and my attacks is a bit more clear. The sound is also some more focused and maybe darker. I think the cup shape is some different but not much. The throat is a hair smaller and its maybe making the difference? So there is difference between them but they look almost the same.

Leif

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:40 am

Quote from: savio on May 10, 2008, 03:02PMI have also tried the "snus" 1 1/2g and my advice is "stay away" don't even look at it

ttf_MikeBassBone · Post by **ttf_MikeBassBone** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:28 am

So how different is the Greg Black 1.5G from the Warburton 1.5G?

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:26 pm

The Warburton 1 1/2G is bigger than most 1 1/2G style mouthpieces, but still allows you to make the classic bass trombone sound that people connect to George Roberts, Tony Studd & co. It's a good mouthpiece.
I just blew a Greg Black 1 1/2G against my standard Mt Vernon 1 1/2G, and would say that the GB is indeed less complex in sound and blows back more than the MV.... the MV seems to let you get more into the horn... the GB keeps you away from it... but the GB is safer to blow.
When I compare my wide rim MV to the Rath copy, they seem closer to each other... and way different to narrow rim mouthpieces of any make.
Just how I see what's in my box.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:44 pm

Chris,

Deviating slightly from the prescribed 1-1/2G topic -
What's the relation of the Rath B1-1/4W to the Rath B1-1/2W? Is it intended to be simply 'the same but larger'?
I know you said that you had no hand in developing the B1-1/4 and B1-1/2 - but do you know if these have the same internal profile as the W versions?

Thanks!

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue May 13, 2008 1:02 am

Quote from: MoominDave on May 12, 2008, 02:44PMChris,

Deviating slightly from the prescribed 1-1/2G topic -
What's the relation of the Rath B1-1/4W to the Rath B1-1/2W? Is it intended to be simply 'the same but larger'?
I know you said that you had no hand in developing the B1-1/4 and B1-1/2 - but do you know if these have the same internal profile as the W versions?

Thanks!

The Rath B1 1/4W was developed from the Minick L, just like the Ferguson L, though the Rath and Ferguson feel like very different mouthpieces... so there is no connection between the Rath B1 1/2W and B1 1/4W except the outside shape.
Hope that helps.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Tue May 13, 2008 3:45 am

Ah, interesting! So was it only the B1-1/2W design of all of them that was guided by your hand?

I ask because I recently bought a B1-1/4W from a forum member, and am, much to my surprise, finding it quite an effective mouthpiece for the less subtle kind of brass band work. "Surprise" because I have never found a mouthpiece bigger than a VB 1-1/4G that feels sufficiently controllable. I find the huge rim a bit distracting though, and wonder if a B1-1/4 would fit me better. But then, maybe the rim width is what is making it more controllable than I expected...

ttf_Mancini · Post by **ttf_Mancini** » Tue May 13, 2008 5:55 am

The rim of the Rath 1 1/4W caused me concern also which was unusual seeing as I'd played the 1 1/2W and Ferguson L pieces for some time. I enjoyed the B1 1/4 and found it to be a good piece in that size that maintained some general playability in all registers while having that big bottom end...I'm a 1 1/2G size player so it's a big piece for me.

The rim, while not being a wide rim, was still comfortable and it also had an interesting sound for me in the middle register with characteristics that I enjoyed listening to. Ultimately I found myself back in the 1 1/2G size but that is a personal preference.

Cheers

Mancini

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue May 13, 2008 3:07 pm

Quote from: MoominDave on May 13, 2008, 03:45AMAh, interesting! So was it only the B1-1/2W design of all of them that was guided by your hand?

I ask because I recently bought a B1-1/4W from a forum member, and am, much to my surprise, finding it quite an effective mouthpiece for the less subtle kind of brass band work. "Surprise" because I have never found a mouthpiece bigger than a VB 1-1/4G that feels sufficiently controllable. I find the huge rim a bit distracting though, and wonder if a B1-1/4 would fit me better. But then, maybe the rim width is what is making it more controllable than I expected...

The mouthpieces I have worked on are : the Rath B2W, B1 1/2W, B1 1/4 (I did the thin rim)
CB1, CB2, CB1B, CB2B.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Wed May 14, 2008 1:25 am

Thanks for the info, Chris.

It would be interesting to see a mouthpiece genealogy chart - a figure where designs from scratch started a new vertical line, and offshoots of those designs were shown as descendents. You could use the horizontal direction to show the chronology of different offshoots from the same mouthpiece. I wonder if anyone has compiled such a chart? It would involve quite a bit of research for someone like myself to do it, but I bet the relevant knowledge is all on tap here.

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Wed May 14, 2008 3:17 am

Sounds like a job for Ed Solomon.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:23 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on May 12, 2008, 05:40AM

I just have to ask. (Out of topic again, sorry.) Svenne:? You don't .....I mean ......you know....? I was sick in two days when trying it....its better than smoking

which I do but still......

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:46 am

Hey everybody..... this topic has just passed 30,000 hits !!!!!

Thanks to everybody who has read and contributed to this marathon...

When I started this thread, I would not have believed we would still be at it now.

I think we are far from finished yet !!!!!!!!!

Let's enjoy the next chapters...

Chris Stearn.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:04 am

Quote from: savio on May 17, 2008, 10:23AMI just have to ask. (Out of topic again, sorry.) Svenne:? You don't .....I mean ......you know....? I was sick in two days when trying it....its better than smoking

which I do but still......

Leif
Well Leif, I used to use snus. And smoke at the same time.
Today I don´t smoke and do use snus. I prefer to practice pedaltones.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:10 am

Back to topic, I tested some horn in the shop "Brassspecialisten" in Stockholm, I did not bring a mouthpiece so they gave me a 1 1/2G. I did not like the horn (I wont say what horn it was) but the mouthpiece felt very good with a very nice rim and good projection. I looked at the piece, the print on the piece said "Brassspecialisten 1 1/2G" !. I say today there is some good 1 1/2G:s around, not necessary Bach though....

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:45 am

He he....I will not be in front of your bell when practicing those pedals............

Isn't Brassspecialisten a music shop in Stockholm? Maybe they also make some mothpieces? How was it compared to a Bach?

Leif

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:54 pm

Yes, Brassspecialisten is a music shop own by Lars Gjert and Lars Westergren, trumpet and bass trombone player at the Royal Opera House. The mouthpieces is their own product. I say it's better then many Bach pieces.

No actuall, I don't use the snus any more, it is very bad for your blodcirkulation!

ttf_second.chance · Post by **ttf_second.chance** » Mon May 19, 2008 1:20 pm

I am often in Stockholm with time to kill, waiting for the Silja ferry to Helsinki - I should call in and have a look at this shop and this 1.5G.... what's the address for the shop?... Doug

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon May 19, 2008 1:37 pm

Quote from: second.chance on May 19, 2008, 01:20PM what's the address for the shop?... Doug

Brasspecialisten is located in Wallingatan 35. They have a website(in swedish) at: http://www.brass-spec.se
Lots of good stuff.

Alf

ttf_second.chance · Post by **ttf_second.chance** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:47 pm

Thanks - I'll be sure to call soon... Doug

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:29 am

Alf! Welcome to the Trombone Forum!
(Do you live in Stockholm?)

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:15 pm

Okay-here's a new question-Does anyone really know what a 1&1/2 G is?

ttf_grub · Post by **ttf_grub** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:08 pm

Why do you think this thread is so long? ; )

I'd call it a sound that has certain qualities to it (focused tone w. some brightness to it, projecting, not an air hog), and damn the measurements.
-->grub

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Wed May 21, 2008 12:12 am

Quote from: Donward59 on May 20, 2008, 07:15PMOkay-here's a new question-Does anyone really know what a 1&1/2 G is?
Yes! It's G,G

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:25 pm

Quote from: grub on May 20, 2008, 08:08PMWhy do you think this thread is so long? ; )

I'd call it a sound that has certain qualities to it (focused tone w. some brightness to it, projecting, not an air hog), and damn the measurements.
-->grub

Yup, I like that Grub..... smaller bass mouthpieces have a different and distinct tone from the large stuff. The cutoff seems to be 28.00mm .... anything below has a CHANCE of sounding 1 1/2Gish.... anything above doesn't.
I've tried every trick in the book, but if you do things like opening a Mt Vernon 2G (it was trashed already)to 1G size at the rim... you lose what you liked in the first place.
If you like the sound, you gotta find a way to make the small stuff work.... the good news is that it's far easier than many people think....

Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:22 pm

Could I ask you Chris Stearn what or how did bring you back to the 1 1/2g after playing much bigger mouthpieces? How did you discover it again, and all the knowledge about the "sound" from this. Many of us have discover it after you started this tread but you must have done it first?

I'm also little curios about all the people who has going back to the 1 1/2g. How does it feels now when we have played it for some time?

For me it was a surprise switching back to this size. The joy of playing is back again and I started to like my sound. So thanks!

Leif

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Wed May 21, 2008 4:40 pm

This thread assisted me in my decision to return to a 1-1/2 size piece. I've been back to that size full-time since last August and like it so well I sold my bigger mouthpieces. The sound I get is closer to the sound in my head, more compact and focused with better projection than the 1.25 size pieces I used to play, yet the sound is about as wide. Plus overall it's easier to play, the little bit of extra effort below pedal D for me is more than made up by the easier high range and the requirement for less air; the older I get the more I like the less air bit.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu May 22, 2008 2:34 am

Quote from: savio on May 21, 2008, 04:22PMCould I ask you Chris Stearn what or how did bring you back to the 1 1/2g after playing much bigger mouthpieces? How did you discover it again, and all the knowledge about the "sound" from this. Many of us have discover it after you started this tread but you must have done it first?

I'm also little curios about all the people who has going back to the 1 1/2g. How does it feels now when we have played it for some time?

For me it was a surprise switching back to this size. The joy of playing is back again and I started to like my sound. So thanks!

Leif

How did I get back to the 1 1/2G mouthpiece ?
Well, I never really got away from it.... I had bought my first one, used, from a pro bass trombone player when I was at school... complete with red wine stains in the cup. I got into college on that mouthpiece.... and all the players I most admired played the 2G or 1 1/2G Bach mouthpiece.... with the exception of Frank Mathieson and Steve Saunders, who both played Holton mouthpieces.... so I HAD to try one of those. I stuck with the Holton for a few years.... but whilst it was easier, the sound was never quite right.... so I thought that I needed something BIGGER..... thus I began the looooong search for a big mouthpiece with the 1 1/2G sound..... well, all I can say is that after 25 years and a heck of a lot of mouthpieces.... there is no such beast.... at least FOR ME. I kept moving between some Greg Black 2G and 1 1/2G mouthpieces and slightly larger stuff.... Ferguson L etc.... but I'd never owned and used a Mt Vernon Bach 1 1/2G until a friend (and forum member) gave me one... yup, GAVE ME ONE !!!!
That was it ! suddenly I had a Bach 1 1/2G that REALLY worked. I found another and bought it, though that one was not so good for me... and I also took back the wide- rim Mt Vernon that Rath had copied for the B1 1/2W.... it had been damaged, so I had never really used it in the past. Adrian Davison, Rath's late and much lamented slide maker had fixed it for me shortly before he died... and it is that mouthpiece that I now use.
The sound in my head has never really changed.... but it took me a long time to realise what I needed to use in order to get toward my goal... and there's the trombone too, but that's a whole different story .....

Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:26 am

Thanks. There is one mouthpiece not so often mentioned in this tread and thats Schilke 58 which also have been a "standard" mouthpiece for many years. I was in a shop yesterday and did try one with standard shank. Its different both in sound and shape from my old Schilke from 1970-1980. Its maybe a hair wider cup but much deeper than my old one. The rim shape look the same but felt more comfortable then the old one. Well I did like it very much and bought it.....

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:58 am

My vocabulary in English is not so big but the sound my Bach 1 1/2g gives me is something I cant find in no of the others 1 1/2 size mouthpieces. Almost all of the others are in a way more secure and safe to play but the sound from the Bach is more of my taste. And easier to manipulate. I think maybe one reason can be that the Bach is some gram less weight than the others? Any way the sound is more important for me.

Leif

ttf_Birdy · Post by **ttf_Birdy** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:39 pm

Quote from: slidejj on May 21, 2008, 04:40PMThis thread assisted me in my decision to return to a 1-1/2 size piece. I've been back to that size full-time since last August and like it so well I sold my bigger mouthpieces. The sound I get is closer to the sound in my head, more compact and focused with better projection than the 1.25 size pieces I used to play, yet the sound is about as wide. Plus overall it's easier to play, the little bit of extra effort below pedal D for me is more than made up by the easier high range and the requirement for less air; the older I get the more I like the less air bit.

This thread also prompted me to change back to the 1.5 size. For me the Bach rim was too uncomfortable, so I switched to the Schilke 58 about 7 months ago. For me I'm mostly getting the sound I want, big and fairly dark but has the core and focus that I just can't get out of the larger pieces. I too sold my larger ones as I've realised with work that the low register is still achievable and at least I sound like a trombone again. I also like the less air bit, I can actually play in phrases again!

Thanks Chris, but for this thread I'd still be on the big gear and wondering why I couldn't match the sound coming out of the bell with the one I had in my head.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu May 22, 2008 4:09 pm

Well, there we have a couple of votes for the Schilke 58... and with good reason... it's a vastly underrated mouthpiece. I remember back in the '70's Denis Wick suggested I try one after he had found one for LSO bass trombonist Frank Mathieson. I tried one and loved it... stupidly I shaved the shank down to a point where it went in too far and all the other examples I bought were just not the same. I think Dave Stewart still plays on one... and sounds stunning... a good mouthpiece.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:02 am

There's a Schilke 58 (among a few other pieces) waiting for me when I head out to Chicago again next month. Eagerly anticipating...

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:47 am

The Schilke 58 was my first mouthpiece when I changed from tenor to bass. It was a great mp making the change from tenor to bass and vice versa very easy for me. Blending with the tenor trombones was a piece of cake and also playing the low register was nice. And I was able to get this big bass trombone sound even on this "small" mouthpiece.

I now play a Schilke 59 wich makes my sound a little softer without loosing control and still have the same range as with the Schilke 58. Schilke 60 would be to big for me and also the BAch 1 1/2 G was to big for me.