TromboneChat

2bobone wrote: ↑Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:34 pm Silver ? Brass ?? Gold ??? Everybody get ready ---- here comes Carbon Fibre !!

And for the requisite follow on question...

Lacquer, or unfinished!

--Andy in OKC

I am really digging my Lawler in brushed red brass. Beautiful instrument.

When I was younger I played in Salvation Army bands in the US. The requirement for us was to have all silver instruments, not lacquered brass. I played my silver horn in those bands as well as my high school bands. After living with both types of finish, I really don't miss having to remove the tarnish on my silver instruments. Wish all of my silver plated instruments were lacquered now.

So two reasons against silver finishes--they require a lot more maintenance and they usually cost more. Not sure if those factors may be driving the train. Also wonder if the plating industry has a say--it is a nasty environment?

walldaja wrote: ↑Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:59 am ... Also wonder if the plating industry has a say--it is a nasty environment?

The chemistries used for plating are quite hazardous. Silver is usually plated from a cyanide cmplex. Chrome is plated from a hexavalent salt. Both require extremely expensive treatment of effluent.

That's not to say lacquer is much better. The solvents used with most lacquers are air pollutants and must be removed from the drying air.

I've never seen a material that can be applied and cured (UV or bake) from 100% solids and be thin enough not to dampen the sound.

There is a good reason to plate instruments beyond just the look. The thicker the metal the darker the sound. You can't put gold directly on brass so they must be silver plated first because gold won't adhere to brass. To Gold plate a trombone takes right at 1 ounce of gold. So you can figure the cost by the price of gold today. It gets expensive very quickly to gold plate a horn.

Let me give an example: I have a couple of Williams mode4 horns. One I got from Billy Byers and it had been buffed and lacquered 3 times that I know of. William horns have a beautiful dark sound. But the one model 4 was sounding pretty bright because it was so thin from previous attempts to re-lacquer the horn. This type of plating is done fairly often with saxophones to bring the metal back to its original thickness. So I had this 4 silver plated by Kanstul and they did a beautiful job. The horn is sounding more like a Williams should now because of the plating making it slightly thicker. The price for that was $750. That was the prep work and buffing etc, the horn was in excellent condition other than the buffing it endured in the past. To add gold over the silver at todays price of gold ($1246.50) would be close to more than the horn is worth! That would bring the price to just under $2000.

So plating is useful in some cases, it goes beyond just the cosmetics or look of the horn. But it is cost prohibitive to gold plate. When this model 4 was made in the early to mis 1960's gold was around $125 and ounce. So the cost is the biggest factor seen in todays market for plating instruments. Silver in 1971 was around $8 an ounce. One ounce of each to do a trombone it would have cost about $133 to silver then gold plate a bone, now its right at $2000!

Trumpet players are arrogant and obnoxious, so of course they use silver horns.
Silver trombones look tacky. Get one if you want.

Bigger horns are silver for a good, practical reason: silver horns last longer. Really.
Drop a mellophone and roll out the bell. On a brass-color horn, you'll get two or three brown stripes when the the lacquer cracks, once when the dent was made and another when it was fixed. Silver? A good job leaves it looking almost new.

On serious repairs, torch work often leaves burn marks and big spots with no lacquer at all. Silver doesn't scorch and the burn marks usually up totally.

Band Directors like silver horns.

JTbandmusic
Trombone
Composer & Arrange - listen to my music on JWPepper

In 1986 I bought a Bach 16M Custom. I ordered a 16M with a gold brass bell. Bach sent that horn by mistake.

It was finished like Bill’S horn. Silver plated slide, gold plated bell section. I never had a problem with the looks of the silver slide. Of course, the gold bell was gorgeous!


And it played like a champ! I sold it after 22 years. Stupid move.

i've got a silver plated King 3BF.

I love it. It's definitely got a unique sound compared to brass. It's bright, yes, but it also has a smooth quality. It's not as full as a brass or sterling sound.
My favorite part about it is how it looks when it's all pollished. It has a commanding presence in the brass bands.

On that note, tarnished silver will be much more muffled than polished. S

bimmerman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:54 pm You can still buy silver plated horns-- Bach, among others, offer this. The lead player in the big band I play with has one.

Trombones also have a variety of sterling silver bell options (King, Conn, others) and elemental silver (Bach) that seem as common as silver plate itself. Why silver plate when you can get something cooler?

Another thing to think about is that a large fraction of slides are nickel silver in color, so why bother silver plating that if you're just going for aesthetic reasons?

I think the bach sp is special order only

From a repairman's perspective... I hate silverplate! I can't tell you how many times a customer would come in with a silver plated instrumet with black tarnish and ask for a flush and clean and off handedly say "polish it too"! And they expected it to look brand new. They had no idea how much work that added, and how dangerous it was to their horn, and me! I was good at it. Made a lot of money doing it. But any time you polish a horn on a buffing lathe it's scary. I'd hand rag it with Silvo then apply Hagerty's mixed with denatured alcohol, and polish with an unstitched chamois wheel with green rouge. Hated it!

BaritoneJack did you see the trombone section in the Marine band today? That should make you happy for a while - I know it did me, for I must admit, I do love a beautiful silver bell on a trombone...

jbeatenbough wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:14 pm BaritoneJack did you see the trombone section in the Marine band today? That should make you happy for a while - I know it did me, for I must admit, I do love a beautiful silver bell on a trombone...

Yes, those silver bells looked great!

LTTP;

But interesting historical question. Why?
1) Form follows function: Unfinished/raw brass versus finished? I think the choice is easy due to wear of raw brass, overall. Even though there is something about a raw brass bell that some people like.
And at a time, lacquer could not compete with silver plate for durability and/or response. But can we talk about the SMELL of old silver plate that’s been fermenting in a case in the basement for a decade? Uggh!

2) Fashion and aesthetics of the time, and setting. In the setting of high school band in the late 1980early 90s, those silver Bach 42 were a not in common sight. I think due to the marching band influence of Drum Corps and maybe military influences, and some universities follows that trend and had the all silver marching bands. In college in the 80s, people were stripping lacquer off of bells in the tub with boiling water and Brasso. I think orchestral players were trying to get more sizing out of the Boch 42 and 50. Before Edward and Shires we’re getting into the market more. Times change.

3) Sonics: Obviously, the design and quality of manufacturing has a major effect. In addition, I think composition and quality of the material in any component affects the physics of an instrument. Pretty insignificant to gold plate a water key or finger button. But bell material and composition probably has more effect than finish due to mass. Some players can tell the difference between various material of the bottom or tuning crook. So a thin high quality silver plate versus thin high quality lacquer, maybe less effect. And for the audience, maybe none.

Carbon fiber? I first ask, “what’s the problem your thing to solve?” and for some it’s the weight of a bass bone, especially, so form follows function.

Gold washed inside the bell, pure aesthetics?

Sterling silver bell? That’s just science. Same as a Fender P Bass. IMHO. Ha!

But these day, the world is your oyster. And for the individual, any of these factors can overrule the others. Some people might so prefer a certain finish, they’ll ignore fashion or that material or finish’s effect on playing characteristic. Like for the raw brass look but without the wear, they get a raw brass horn and let it oxidize untouched for a few months then add a clear finish to preserve the look. A friend of mine with an old Collichio trumpet had it silver plated them gold plated just to preserve and protect it from his acidic skin wearing to away.

Today, I’m gigging on my early 70s King 3B silversonic, sterling bell, in its fully tarnished-silver glory. Nickel something at the neck and some braces. Raw and lacquered spots on the bows. Clean and lubed inside. 9/10 slide. Hey, That’s an aesthetic as well!

Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?

2genbone wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:42 pm Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?

Probably not

The Silver trombones in the WDR Big Band are Rath Nickel silver, not plated

Maybe a more poignant question would be..... Why do virtually all brass bands now use large bore Bb/F instruments when not soooo long ago a King 3B size was the norm?
I always think the bones in a brass band sound much better playing smaller equipment!

2genbone wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:42 pm Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?

Yes, I have done that to several instruments for clients.

2genbone wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:42 pm Has anyone ever had their silverplated trombone de-plated and then lacquered?

There was an old thread from Sam Burtis where he went through his experiences with a horn or two that he liked, stripped the lacquer, liked a little better; silver plated, hated it; gold plated, got back to a good place.

I know a handful of cases where people have stripped silver plating… mostly for restoration work and just left the horns raw or lacquered.

Cheers,
Andy

Fidbone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:32 am
I always think the bones in a brass band sound much better playing smaller equipment!

I've heard some wind ensemble sections that sound a little darker than I like, and the assumption is that large bore horns cause that.

I'm no longer that sure. It may be the way they play now.

greenbean wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:18 pm Let's face it: Silver trombones look goofy!

Nu Huh

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:35 pm Not sure why that is but a piccolo or a trumpet looks quite nice, elegant even, in silver. Again, that's 200% subjective and probaly isn't universal but, there it is!

I agree silver trumpets look nice, mine is. But I do need to keep after it with the silver cloth to keep it looking good. My 1930s Conn 20J tuba is also silver…more like a mottled silver ever since I got it, 30 plus years untouched by previous owner, polished up a small,area, shined up but not as bright and shiny my trumpet, and it’s low on my priority list and even lower on my wife’s!

My euph, trombone, are French horn are not silver, and I wouldn’t want them to be.

When I played in Salvation Army bands in the 60s all horns were required to be silver--hence I got a silver Besson (yeah, and they were all made by Boosey & Hawkes, Besson, or badged Salvation Army). All SA vehicles were also required to be black and either Ford or Chevy--no red Oldsmobiles.

From the perspective of a younger classical musician, currently back in collegiate study:

1) High-end trombones are expensive (even used ones), and silver-plate is usually a higher cost.

2) In the era of customized or modular horns, silver-plate is yet another component factor to weed through when putting a setup together. It doesn't help that very few prominent orchestral trombonists play on silver-esque components or instruments (the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example), so it's not a risk most people are inclined to take.

3) Because of its rarity in classical settings, silver-plate is usually a "loud" visual statement when everyone else is playing brass or lacquered horns. That attention may be unwanted, especially if you're really just aiming to be judged on your playing alone.

DCIsky wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:32 pm
(the San Diego Symphony section playing on Sterling silver Conns is a rare example)

And also no longer the case. All red Conn bells these days!

i think we need to factor in that silver and gold plate was significantly and proportionally cheaper after inflation to do back in the day than it is today.

People have a perception that silver instruments are brighter than non silver but I don't know if, in the UK at least, this is due to most people who use silver instruments playing in brass bands that play 'on the bright side' anyway. Then people listen with their eyes and all that.

My understanding was silver was denser than brass which should make a less bright sound?

LR109 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2024 2:19 am ...
My understanding was silver was denser than brass which should make a less bright sound?

The real issue is that a silver plating is much thinner than a lacquer coat. A silver plated instrument sounds more like an unlacquered one; and unlacquered instruments are brighter than when they had lacquer.

I still think about a silver straight 4b I played in the Best used room once. Played beautifully, in the used room at least. Couldn't afford it back then.

Bought a "normal" one later, and we've been together many years - but I still think about that silver one.