TromboneChat

The valve for sure alleviates some of the problems some members had in this thread. I'm also curious to hear it!

Thanks guys. I gotta make it longer apart it goes, that got me a flat Ab. Take 2!

Alright, version 2.0. I went as long as i could on the reverse crook, if it needs more ill have to make another tuning slide.

Alright, so that right there is a G valve, slightly flat, easy fix. Going to play it as is once i get the linkage done. Seems to play well, which isn't surprising since it played well before the valve. The closed wrap doesnt have any noticeable effect on the lower register, if anything makes it easier to belt out the real low stuff

The horn itself is still really light compared to my Bb horn, and it fairly well balanced. I doubt ill get time to finish it today, but tomorrow for sure.

looks good so far, but I thought the first valve was to be Bb?

You could've saved yourself a lot of building time & effort by doing the math first.
A Bb horn is approx 108 inches tube length, for every 1/2 step higher, divide by 1.0595 (twelfth root of 2)
For every 1/2 step lower, multiply by 1.0595, so that:
Eb=80.9
D=85.7
Db=90.8
C=96
B=102
Bb=108
A=114.4
Ab=121.2
G=128.4
Gb=136
F=144.2
E=152.7
Eb=161.8
D=171.4

of course, bore, bell size, & taper all adjust these numbers by small amounts but this is close enough to be within a tuning slide's length of in tune. So a Gb crook on a Db horn will be 136-90.8=45.2 inches tubing length. If you made it 42 inches & gave yourself 6" of adjustment (3" per leg) you can't go wrong.

peteedwards wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:35 am looks good so far, but I thought the first valve was to be Bb?

You could've saved yourself a lot of building time & effort by doing the math first.
A Bb horn is approx 108 inches tube length, for every 1/2 step higher, divide by 1.0595 (twelfth root of 2)
For every 1/2 step lower, multiply by 1.0595, so that:
Eb=80.9
D=85.7
Db=90.8
C=96
B=102
Bb=108
A=114.4
Ab=121.2
G=128.4
Gb=136
F=144.2
E=152.7
Eb=161.8
D=171.4

of course, bore, bell size, & taper all adjust these numbers by small amounts but this is close enough to be within a tuning slide's length of in tune. So a Gb crook on a Db horn will be 136-90.8=45.2 inches tubing length. If you made it 42 inches & gave yourself 6" of adjustment (3" per leg) you can't go wrong.

That is extremely helpful! Im going to leave it in g right now, i have a better set of valves i will use on the next bell section, this one is just figuring it all out. So for now the 1 valve is will be just fine.

On the NEXT bell section. I admire your commitment to this. The only thing I have doubts is the effort to learn a complete new set of positions. It will be as learning the alto or learning the soprano as I'm doing at the moment. Not impossible but time consuming. I'm very interested in your project.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:05 am On the NEXT bell section. I admire your commitment to this. The only thing I have doubts is the effort to learn a complete new set of positions. It will be as learning the alto or learning the soprano as I'm doing at the moment. Not impossible but time consuming. I'm very interested in your project.

/Tom

Haha thanks. Trust me, once people try it and see im not full of it, they arent going to have a problem with some new positions. Im excited to get video up.

Hit a small snag, had to order a perch for the linkage, thought I had one. I can bend up the linkage in the mean time.

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:45 am Trust me, once people try it and see im not full of it, they arent going to have a problem with some new positions. Im excited to get video up.

The skeptic in me has a hard time with claims like that before the horn is even finished being built.
It would have to be pretty radically better to get me to break 40 years of training my brain to what is now just instinctual. I look forward to hearing more musically relevant samples.

peteedwards wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:38 am

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:45 am Trust me, once people try it and see im not full of it, they arent going to have a problem with some new positions. Im excited to get video up.

The skeptic in me has a hard time with claims like that before the horn is even finished being built.
It would have to be pretty radically better to get me to break 40 years of training my brain to what is now just instinctual. I look forward to hearing more musically relevant samples.

I played it a bit without the linkage, enough to get an idea of the sound quality.

Did a little clean up early this morning. I'm not going nuts on it just get, since its possible i may end up changing something. I also bend up a couple of linkage options. Once the post get here ill see what works best.

Keep it going. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nice work!!!

Is the ability to sustain lower notes improved at all over a Bb/F horn?

Schlitz wrote: ↑Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:02 pm Keep it going. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nice work!!!

Thanks, fully intend to. The list of players interested in one keeps growing, so i must be onto something

Pre59 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:16 am Is the ability to sustain lower notes improved at all over a Bb/F horn?

Once i have linkage on and really play around i will give you feedback on that. Im inclined to say its about the same, but i want to be able to operate the horn completed before i definitively answer.

Sorry I'm having trouble doing the math in my head... Db+G=?

Im not sure i follow. Horn is in Db, and when the valve is open it is in G.

Since the valve was about 10 cents flat with the tuning slide all the way in, im chopping .5" off the crook ends so its tunable. Also making a couple of bullet style braces. I should have the finish all done this weekend. So only the linkage perch is on the waiting list. A friend is helping me source the parts to do the tuning in slide, and at the same time i have to take .5" off the slide again for tunability. Right now its almost exactly in tune. Im probably going to have someone do the final assembly on the slide, so the alignment is absolutely perfect. I have no desire to sit there and screw with it until its right, too much of a pain!

Bell is all finished. Cut the tuning slide, put a satin finish on it, just 1 perch and its complete. Ill be refinishing the slide while i wait. It came out mich nicer than i imagined, ill take photos with daylight tomirrow.

Well. Bell is all finshed nice

Great Job. The horn looks beautiful and sounds just as good on the video.
I don`t know why everyone is SOOOO worked up. You made a horn for yourself as a fun project. Came out great.
No one is forcing this instrument on anybody to play.

Looks nice!

/Tom

I think this is awesome. Brass instruments in abnormal keys are cool. And if it fits as a carry-on, well...that makes it worth it alone.

I will admit, if I had one that stood in Db (and not Bb ascending) I would want the valves proportioned the same as a normal bass (4th/3rd, so Db/Ab/A) judging by how much contras in F/D/Bb totally wreck my brain. But that's a personal deficiency, not the horn's. I can learn a different key much easier than a different valve configuration.

Mini update. Now that i have a wotking valve, the horn is immensely fun to play. The sound is really fantastic, will have to get a video done quickly. And most importantly, the 1 valve for me at least is sufficient. Rather than go on and on about it, ill get to recording.

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:41 am Great Job. The horn looks beautiful and sounds just as good on the video.
I don`t know why everyone is SOOOO worked up. You made a horn for yourself as a fun project. Came out great.
No one is forcing this instrument on anybody to play.

Thanks! Im still new at this, and getting the details right is really, really, challenging.

I have to tweak the linkage a little, then i will be flooding the internet with videos. While that video was to show the low stuff is there, im looking forward to just showcasing the beautiful sound of the horn.

Im guessing some people are getting worked up because I'm essentially taking the "rules" of hornbuilding and tossing them in the trash. Others because i have mentioned I intend to produce these. Either way, i am firmly convinced people need to play it to understand. Between the way the horn resonates, to the feel at the mouthpiece, it's a very interesting experience I'm not sure i can describe.

It would be really interesting if the double pedals spoke well.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:44 am It would be really interesting if the double pedals spoke well.

I want to say they dont, but i should probably say they dont for me. That being said, my double pedals dont speak well on my Bb horn either, but they are better on the Db horn. Im guessing that a better player could belt them out.

I got to play for close to 3 hours today. For starters, i now have a decent double pedal range. Getting seat time on the horn led to some adjustments to the hand position. I shortened the thumb rest, and lowered the lever pivot to shorten the throw. It could probably still go lower, but its way better now.

Most of my time was playing solo stuff, and just getting more familiar with the positions. While its an active process learning where every note is, i was able to get much more accustomed to it. While i can play it just fine, id wager it would take a couple of weeks playing every day for it to be 2nd nature.

I will take a shot at some videos early next week, I really need the week to just work on my own playing, its been a long time.

Cleaned up the linkage area, and turned a nice finger rest

Interesting. So this is a single valve instrument with the valve actuated by your finger (middle?)?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:29 pm Interesting. So this is a single valve instrument with the valve actuated by your finger (middle?)?

Yup! I vastly prefer it that way with a single valve, i like having my thumb to grip with.

That's one unique bastrombone you've got there

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:05 pm That's one unique bastrombone you've got there

/Tom

Thanks! A little adjustment here and there, and it'll be exactly what i hoped for. After more playing, I'm finding the positions to be much more comfortable, although my instinct to do the Db/Bb/Gb was bang on. This version works, but id found several situations where the double valve would be perfect. The single valve obviously forces the player to use the natural positions a lot, which i know many people prefer.

Did a hair more tweaking. I needed my hand back just a tiny bit, and the thumb lever was digging into my hand a little, so 2 birds, 1 stone. In case anyone is wondering, I used 1/2" brass for the trigger and thumb rest. Extremely comfortable, yet quick and easy to turn on my lathe. I would have looked better if i machined the decorative rings into the same end of each piece, but i opted for function over form, and put them on the end of each where it would not be touching my fingers. The the tumb rest is soldered on, and the trigger cover is just in place, pending adjustment. I will probably put a couple of set screws in it for further adjustment.

The only other thing i may want is a counter weight, so i may try to machine an interesting one.

Another little comparison. Next ones will be just the Db horn. Its surprisingly hard to go back and forth.

One more

What I'd really like to hear is how it blends with a pair of Bb tenors (or maybe in a 4 part choir). There is something a bit different in the base tone of this instrument and I simply ask if it will work as the low voice in an ensemble.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:22 pm What I'd really like to hear is how it blends with a pair of Bb tenors (or maybe in a 4 part choir). There is something a bit different in the base tone of this instrument and I simply ask if it will work as the low voice in an ensemble.

Well, i have a couple of things in motion where you will get to hear it in an ensemble fairly soon. I honestly like the sound of it better than my Bb bass. I know i am probably not the best player to be showcasing it, but i will keep working on getting my playing back up to par to show it off better.

In recent news I have set up a few appointments for my prototype to be tried out, and have started getting everything together for the 2nd bell section with 2 valves. Im 90% certain i will make them dependent, but i will see how it goes. While i really enjoy the single g valve, there will be a lot more utility to the horn in the Db/bb/gb configuration.

I hope whomever tests it out listens with ears rather than eyes. I like the sound of your new invention, but it is different. Better? Can't say for sure.

I think the last Db instrument in regular use is the Db piccolo. It's been generally replaced by the C piccolo. I have no idea why, but I can probably guess.

It was tested by someone whose opinion i hold in very high regard yesterday, and he observations were very much in line with my own. The low range sounds every bit as good, mid range has a beautiful vocal like quality, and upper range is far far easier to play. Playing a Db scale up to high Db is almost effortless, with a strong centered sound. His actually comment was "that's about the easiest Db scale I've ever played." He agreed the mid and high register are a little brighter than some bases, but certainly within the range of tone one expects from a bass trombone.

He too thought adding a 2nd valve would have a lot of benefits, but the single valve did do the job just fine. He was also gracious enough to donate a battered old bach 50 to the cause for my 2nd bell prototype, which is good because funds are getting low!

The next test i have scheduled is for next friday, and this will likely be a very comprehensive review.

My ears like your mid and high sound very much. It may be that we are entrained on the sound of a long bass in that range, thinking what we have always heard must be normal and correct.

baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:24 am My ears like your mid and high sound very much. It may be that we are entrained on the sound of a long bass in that range, thinking what we have always heard must be normal and correct.

thanks! It really has some great sound, hard for me to explain, but easy to understand hearing it in person.

So this just happened

Just waiting on tuning slide and bell now, then I'll solder it all up.

Ok had to revisit the whole thing, and now we're good!

Alright, final design. Lengths are good, now just need a bell.

Cleaned up the solder. Tonightvill get the valves cleaned up, tomorrow the bell, thuraday linkage. Possibly playable for friday.

I would probably have had the secondary valve loop go above the plane of the bell tubing so if you decide you want a longer secondary loop you have room to expand.

Are you planning to use that Bach 50 bell you were working on?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:06 pm I would probably have had the secondary valve loop go above the plane of the bell tubing so if you decide you want a longer secondary loop you have room to expand.

Are you planning to use that Bach 50 bell you were working on?

Gb with both valves is just fine, and if not, well i have my ways lol. I basically used the same tuning as a 50b2 just up a minor 3rd. The tuning is really inconsequential, as i can make it anything someone would want. What i am after is just finding a good design, and overall playability. I like the G valve on the other prototype, but the ear is very used to Bb/F or in this case Dd/Ab, so I'm trying to make this part more intuitive. Having the full step down to Gb is the minimum to give the player a full chromatic range, and again, most bass players as comfortable with a Gb valve. Overall, if someone were to want to learn this horn, a week of diligent practicing gets your head in the game, and one more week if they don't want to have to think about positions. .

Nope, it doesnt use a standard bass bell, the taper is all wrong. I guess this part is my little secret haha.

As far as the corporation bell, a friend of mine is an excellent sheet metal fabricator, so he and I and going to see how perfect we can get it. I got it very close using nothing more than a torch, my hands, and a wooden dowel that i turned a unique shape onto each end. I have no use for it, so once its cleaned up i guess ill sell it.

prediction:
1st valve slide will need to be pulled 3" to get Ab, 2nd slide will be pulled 1" to get Gb.

I measured it out, the main slide needs a 1 inch pull or so, the 2nd, about half an inch. Of course, numbers and reality are sometimes off.