TromboneChat

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:57 am**

I agree with @rustbeltbass comment about feel. I know I'm susceptible to judging by feel, and it can be difficult to separate feel from sound. I think most of us go through an outlandish equipment phase. The calls for recordings were probably to call OP's attention to the actual sound.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:01 am**

Bizet wrote that originally for 1 French (ie small bore small bell) Tenor trombone. It was not written for bass trombone. Bass trombones weren't used in France when he wrote it. The other 2 parts were added later, and are also written for small bore tenor trombone.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:02 am**

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:31 am I don’t intend to speak on behalf of the player in question nor can I judge him or her but I suspect (!) that what they think may be a great sound may really be merely a great FEEL.

That’s in my opinion the one danger with playing huge equipment. It feels like finally you can blow openly, allow the air through and things just seem to flow.

A potentially dangerous path to walk.

There have been several other threads involving discussion of progressively more open / larger mouthpieces in use by the TO, and I remember them stating that they were "injured' by a mouthpiece, I guess because the throat was too small? That only way I can think of that happening is them trying to vastly overblow the mouthpiece / horn, and ended up causing injury due to the pressure they were exerting internally.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:40 am**

The only person who wants to hear loud farting pedals is the person doing it, or maybe another bass trombone player. What's actually important is how well you can access the whole range, and of course whether it's in tune and sounds good.

Jeff Cortazzo plays what he needs to to access the full range in tune and sound good. He's moved down in size a little bit after he retired from the Army Blues.

There was a time when a 60 size mouthpiece would have been considered a contrabass, or even Eb tuba mouthpiece.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:01 am**

"The only person who wants to hear loud farting pedals is the person doing it, or maybe another bass trombone player."

No argument from me there about the first part at least!!

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:04 am**

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:46 amEven Wagner in his contrabass trombone parts doesn't go lower than pedal G.

The 4th trombone part in the Ring Cycle goes down to pedal E.

The range of a bass trombone generally should be from pedal F to A above the bass staff. Any more is gravy. Any less is a lost job.

In the standard orchestral rep you need the high B in Hary Janos and the pedal Gs in Alpensinfonie. If you're playing other bass gigs, you need even more. I have had to play exposed pedal Cs on gigs. It's not common, but it happens. I once played the premiere of an opera that had triple forte pedal Ds all over the place. I have also had to play a few high Cs and one high D, going back to some earlier comments.

(I've also been asked to play exposed pedal Fs as loud as I possibly can from the conductor, so sometimes it's not just bass trombonists who want to hear the raunchy stuff.)

Note that the 3rd trombone part in the Farandole in Bizet's "L'Arlesienne Suite 2" goes to A (A4, above middle C). Surprisingly, that lick is supposed to be played by the 1st trombone in the score, but the 1st trombone has a long series of D's (D3, in the bass staff) at that time.

It's a 3rd tenor part. French composers did that with 3rd trombone sometimes, for example the famous Franck excerpt. My guess is that they think that the drones 1st and 2nd have are more important than the melody, because the melody is doubled by a lot of the orchestra.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:16 am**

I've often thought that some of those excerpts where the 3rd Trombone has the high exposed parts are more a matter of editing. Some of those editions are designed so that you can perform them with a smaller orchestra, and the 3rd trombone part is usually the one to play when there is not a full section there. Better to have a trombone that provides the bottom of the chord most of the time, and the editors at the publishing company assigned some of the melodic bits to the non-optional part. I know that when we play the Carmen orchestral suites, there are a few of the 1st trombone parts from the opera assigned to the 3rd part. Also, the 3rd part has a lot more cues for things like 4th horn and 2nd bassoon.

Jim Scott

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:27 am**

Yes, "editing" in that the score was originally written for one trombone, with the other 2 parts being added later. Evidently Bizet wanted the original single trombone part to become the 3rd part, as the 2 are very similar. The added parts provide "padding" most of the time

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:28 am**

Wozzeck has a pedal D.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:30 am**

For the record, this contra mouthpiece hasn't allowed me to play lower, not even easier lower, what it did was allow me to move more air at faster rate. But it doesn't fit my bass intonation wise. I've been lucky 100% rate in finding and picking mouthpieces without intonation issues. Looks as if I reach my limit with this horn. A big mouthpiece is not a flex. I'm wondering if a dual bore slide would work.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:56 am**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:30 am For the record, this contra mouthpiece hasn't allowed me to play lower, not even easier lower, what it did was allow me to move more air at faster rate. But it doesn't fit my bass intonation wise. I've been lucky 100% rate in finding and picking mouthpieces without intonation issues. Looks as if I reach my limit with this horn. A big mouthpiece is not a flex. I'm wondering if a dual bore slide would work.

I think there is a good reason to use a bass trombone mothpiece with the bass trombone since the CB-mouthpiece does not give an advantage. Cool experiment!

/Tom

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:15 am**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:30 am For the record, this contra mouthpiece hasn't allowed me to play lower, not even easier lower, what it did was allow me to move more air at faster rate. But it doesn't fit my bass intonation wise. I've been lucky 100% rate in finding and picking mouthpieces without intonation issues. Looks as if I reach my limit with this horn. A big mouthpiece is not a flex. I'm wondering if a dual bore slide would work.

How about .576, both legs?

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:25 am**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:30 am For the record, this contra mouthpiece hasn't allowed me to play lower, not even easier lower, what it did was allow me to move more air at faster rate. But it doesn't fit my bass intonation wise. I've been lucky 100% rate in finding and picking mouthpieces without intonation issues. Looks as if I reach my limit with this horn. A big mouthpiece is not a flex. I'm wondering if a dual bore slide would work.

I hope I am not overstepping and if I am I apologize in advance but: From what you have been sharing it seems the issues at hand may not be related to equipment and rather your use of air/the way you blow. Maybe needing to move the air faster is not the way to go, maybe slower and controlled, gentle air will let you reach the desired results.

By now trying a dual bore slide you just open a new (expensive) can of worms. Not saying a different slide will not make any difference but for me changing a part of the equipment should in many cases be based on making something more interesting from a musical standpoint, rather than in order to just control one’s playing.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:32 am**

"allow me to move more air at faster rate. "

In other words it "allows" you to play less efficiently.
Great.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:49 am**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:32 am "allow me to move more air at faster rate. "

In other words it "allows" you to play less efficiently.
Great.

How is it?

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:54 am**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:49 am
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:32 am "allow me to move more air at faster rate. "

In other words it "allows" you to play less efficiently.
Great.
How is it?

Efficiency is about getting most/best result with the least possible effort. There is nothing efficient with getting a lot of air through the hole. What matters is what quality of sound and playing leaves the bell. Personally I've come to the conclusion the smallest mouthpiece I can find that still makes a good enough result is what to choose.

/Tom

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:00 pm**

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:54 am
trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:49 am

How is it?
Efficiency is about getting most/best result with the least possible effort. There is nothing efficient with getting a lot of ait through the hole. What matters is what quality of sound and playing leaves the bell. Personally I've come to the conclusion the smallest mouthpiece I can find that still makes a good enough result is what to choose.

/Tom
Efficiency is about efficacy. Which varies on opinion.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:05 pm**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:00 pm
imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:54 am

Efficiency is about getting most/best result with the least possible effort. There is nothing efficient with getting a lot of ait through the hole. What matters is what quality of sound and playing leaves the bell. Personally I've come to the conclusion the smallest mouthpiece I can find that still makes a good enough result is what to choose.

/Tom
Efficiency is about efficacy. Which varies on opinion.

Okay. In that case what is the goal?

/Tom

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:12 pm**

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:05 pm
trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:00 pm

Okay. In that case what is the goal?

/Tom
Lol what ever the conductor wants in most cases. In my case fitting my chops in a mouthpiece without a lot of movement. I'm not sure why a contra mouthpiece on a bass is an issue. The rim is comfortable and backbore is the same as my regular bass, I'm not having to move my chops much with this mouthpiece which is Ideal for me. No tilting for whatever reason. This reasoning is Efficiency for me.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:22 pm**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:12 pm
imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:05 pm

Lol what ever the conductor wants in most cases. In my case fitting my chops in a mouthpiece without a lot of movement. I'm not sure why a contra mouthpiece on a bass is an issue. The rim is comfortable and backbore is the same as my regular bass, I'm not having to move my chops much with this mouthpiece which is Ideal for me. No tilting for whatever reason. This reasoning is Efficiency for me.

You can use what ever you want

I often bring one smaller and one larger mouthpiece and switch if I have to. The larger mouthpiece could be a CB-mouthpiece if I had one and if I found it solves a particular problem. From the thread I read you have some issues with intonation and I can understand that,. I think it can be expected, but if you can adjust then why not. If a CB-mouthpiece is your mouthpiece for everything then you need serious chops. Go for it!

/Tom

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:54 pm**

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:22 pm
trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 12:12 pm
You can use what ever you want I often bring one smaller and one larger mouthpiece and switch if I have to. The larger mouthpiece could be a CB-mouthpiece if I had one and if I found it solves a particular problem. From the thread I read you have some issues with intonation and I can understand that,. I think it can be expected, but if you can adjust then why not. If a CB-mouthpiece is your mouthpiece for everything then you need serious chops. Go for it!

/Tom

I wasn't having problems with my original one, I just like the feel of that mouthpiece, I'm thinking the cup is to deep and shank is to long, Greg makes great mouthpieces though which why I kept playing on it, but at some point I felt as if I had to do to much chopping and down for intonation. It's OK though there's many ways of doing everything the right way

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:36 pm**

“…I wasn't having problems with my original one, I just like the feel of that mouthpiece,”…

I’ve found that nearly every mpc that is a little bit larger than the one I’m accustomed to feels better, is more open, bigger sound etc. But eventually, my high range becomes difficult and my sound gets too dark.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:42 pm**

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:36 pm “…I wasn't having problems with my original one, I just like the feel of that mouthpiece,”…

I’ve found that nearly every mpc that is a little bit larger than the one I’m accustomed to feels better, is more open, bigger sound etc. But eventually, my high range becomes difficult and my sound gets too dark.

I also have experience the mouthpiece "honeymoon period" when getting a new mouthpiece, changing setups, etc. Even the same mouthpiece with a different horn can take adjustment.

Posted: **Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:41 pm**

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:30 am For the record, this contra mouthpiece hasn't allowed me to play lower, not even easier lower, what it did was allow me to move more air at faster rate. But it doesn't fit my bass intonation wise. I've been lucky 100% rate in finding and picking mouthpieces without intonation issues. Looks as if I reach my limit with this horn. A big mouthpiece is not a flex. I'm wondering if a dual bore slide would work.

Just play contrabass trombone.

The issue probably comes down to too big a throat, too open a backbore, too deep a cup, and the mouthpiece not going in far enough into the receiver. You know, like, almost every aspect.

Posted: **Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:40 am**

This is where I really like modular pieces because it’s easy, or at least easier, to figure out what you like and don’t like about a piece. I typically play large rims and if I was exclusively a bass player, I’d almost certainly play a CB rim size. When I was playing a lot of bass subbing for someone who had knee surgery a few years ago, I ended up gravitating to a 1.16” rim.

Something I’ve observed is that a “too small” rim feels like I can’t get enough air through. Sometimes people open up a backbone when a slightly larger inner rim diameter would be a better option for them. I wonder if that’s what you’ve experienced, and are digging the larger rim, but have chosen a piece that is bigger in all dimensions and gone “too far”. I have several of Jeff’s pieces and intonation is not a problem in the slightest on them, even on my 562/578 slide, so by default his designs can work really well. If he offered lexan I’d probably play them more! Just can’t get used to the silver or the acrylic.

At any rate, in your shoes, I’d investigate keeping the rim and getting something more “mainstream” in terms of depth and backbone. In Doug’s langauage, maybe even as shallow as a J and an “8” backbore. The larger rim should still provide the same feel and the intonation would likely fix itself. Then go deeper and larger as those issues are fixed. In terms of comparables, that’s perhaps a Bach 1.5G depth. Think I saw you had a .312 throat too, which is on the larger end.

Either that or spend a bunch of time with drones and maybe shortening the horn, but I tend to prefer to go with less drastic options first, personally.

Posted: **Wed Jun 21, 2023 9:50 am**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:40 am The only person who wants to hear loud farting pedals is the person doing it, or maybe another bass trombone player.

I‘m going to admit a guilty pleasure of listening to videos on YouTube of the Whit Friday marches and smiling when I hear the unmistakeable sound of the trombones (especially bass) really getting into it at the front of the band.

Posted: **Wed Jun 21, 2023 4:20 pm**

Hah I was going to post the meme of the monkey looking backwards but I guess I am a bass trombonist too

Posted: **Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:30 am**

I understand that a wider rim helps so you do not need to switch to a raised emboushure. It is a reason to go bigger. I do belive thickness of lips also has something to do whith the problem. I have a friend who does not practice pedals much, not even practices his bass trombone much. He has switched to tuba many years ago. What he always can do is to play his pedals on a Bach 1/2G without a swich. He has very thin lips, and I believe this is what helps him. Thin lips can not be practised, unfortunately. The second thing to do is to back of from the face with the mouthpiece. That has helped me. Iv'e worked a lot on my pedals and can now play a pedal D without a switch on a 1 3/4G, but not very loud. If I switch to a 1G I can reach a Db but still very soft so not much difference and not much use. I guess I could have a benefit of a wider rim to get a steady more usable pedal D, Db and below and then maybe even a steady C.
A question for me is if it is worth. Maybe it is, maybe not. I once had to play a exposed pedal C on a rehearsal. I did that with my raised emboushure. It worked but I would'nt want to do that in public on a gig. I'm beginning to think I might need a real wide bass trombone mouthpiece option after all, if I ever have to do that again, but not too deep and not too open. I don't want it to suck all air.

/Tom

Posted: **Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:46 am**

I know a player who can play very good on a very big mouthpiece, I think it could be a CB mouthpiece, it´s id is 30 mm. (I think the biggest basstrombone mouthpiece is 29,5 mm) he is very special, very gifted. Very big sound. Much bigger sound then most basstrombonists. But does not really sound like a CB. He does not blend very well in a section in my oppinion.

Posted: **Thu Jun 22, 2023 1:30 pm**

Olofson wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 7:46 am I know a player who can play very good on a very big mouthpiece, I think it could be a CB mouthpiece, it´s id is 30 mm. (I think the biggest basstrombone mouthpiece is 29,5 mm) he is very special, very gifted. Very big sound. Much bigger sound then most basstrombonists. But does not really sound like a CB. He does not blend very well in a section in my oppinion.

Gotta a sterling silver B3 edwards that solved that problem. Even when using the CB mp, I couldn't blend. Down side though that sucker zaps my longevity, that's what practice is for though. It's a shame though that contra mp played better than the 29.5 rim and .323 backbore he made for me. The Long Island rim does what the contra does, allows more chop, I'm afraid though if I go any deeper the results is gonna be the same for all bass mouthpieces. These things are expensive for a trial and error experiment. Imma stick to what have been working for now.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:48 am**

Check out the Michael Parker / Steve Dunkel mouthpiece. 29.5 mm rim with .317 (7.44mm) backbore. It is made of implant grade stainless steel and has a bass trombone shank. The best of contra size mouthpiece for bass trombone. It has great focus and integrity at all volumes, and has in addition to a great low register, a n excellent high range. I have played it on many occasions tp high C and beyond.

https://www.parkermouthpieces.com/tromb ... mouthpiece

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:01 am**

ssking2b wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:48 am Check out the Michael Parker / Steve Dunkel mouthpiece. 29.5 mm rim with .317 (7.44mm) backbore. It is made of implant grade stainless steel and has a bass trombone shank. The best of contra size mouthpiece for bass trombone. It has great focus and integrity at all volumes, and has in addition to a great low register, a n excellent high range. I have played it on many occasions tp high C and beyond.

https://www.parkermouthpieces.com/tromb ... mouthpiece

29.5 is very large bass trombone size. Contra is 30mm and up.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:21 am**

Fwiw you can absolutely effectively play contra with a 29.5mm mouthpiece.

Posted: **Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:36 am**

Diameter of the cup is dictated by the suitability to your face, not the horn you're playing.

Posted: **Thu Jul 06, 2023 2:52 pm**

Well excuse me. Marcinkiewicz defines the 105 as a contra mouthpiece - and its only 29.4. I would guess that exact dimension is subjective.

Posted: **Thu Jul 06, 2023 7:50 pm**

Not a huge expert on contrabass trombone, I sold mine a few years ago, only played it for very few gigs. In Germany I played the school owned Lätzsch quite a bit…with a German mouthpiece.

What I have heard from a true contrabass trombone expert however is that many American CB mouthpieces are just a gradual continuation of bass trombone MPs. German cb mouthpiece design however seems to break away from these dimensions from what I remember him saying. I can ask for more information on this.

TromboneChat

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