Mouthpiece Question(s) (Backbore, Venturi, Throat)

[harrisonreed]

Considering Jay has been playing a similar setup for 20 years or so, the world is catching on pretty slowly.

A hundred years have not yet passed.
But Joe Alessi for example uses a dual bore .547/562 and a 2g size mouthpiece. Two of the world's greatest symphonic players play such big equipment with great results. The conservative majority has something to think about.

Lots and lots of players are using tenor mouthpieces with much larger inner diameters than the proverbial 5G -- there may be less of a conservative majority than you think. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

Off the top of my head, most of my colleagues are on something between a Doug Elliott 103 and 106 sized rim, and either the F or G shaped cup on large tenor. Very very reasonable equipment these days. Every time I go to a trombone convention it seems like every tenor artist is playing some version of the Alessi Griego mouthpiece, which also fits that range.

The reason for this is mostly because these mouthpieces are now available, and people can try a lot of stuff these days. It's NOT because going bigger is innately better. Don't forget that Christian Lindberg, Alain Trudel, Michel Bequet, Jorgan Van Rijen, and so many other amazing artists play on smaller mouthpieces. It's like debating shoe sizes in the NFL -- nothing to do with their ability to shoot.

I'm sure when Joe made his first wide piece in the 80s or 90s or whatever, it was the result of a ton of experiments with someone who had a lathe, and it took a lot of money. Same with Denis Wick and Jay. You didn't just get a shallow 3G by default, because with the way things used to be manufactured it didn't make financial sense. You had like 2 blanks, and there was only do much you could do with it. So nobody tried anything other than what was available unless they were crazy. Now with CNC lathes and accurate tools, you can press a button and the craziest design you can dream up pops out of the machine. It's about $250 for a completely custom, plated mouthpiece, from a few shops around the world. Do you realize how crazy that is compared to even 10 years ago?

Like Doug says, it just happens to be that whatever the most common embouchure type is seems to be able to handle more width in the cup. The guys in mouthpiece design must've been trumpeters, back in the day, so we got hosed until the 90s, and the top players coincidentally were blessed with embouchures predisposed to 6.5ALs and 5Gs.

[BrianJohnston]

I agree with you in many ways, but the issue of equipment today is a matter of tradition. I know that in music colleges and conservatories in the US today all students are sent to .547 bore and 5g. A very small number play in colleges on 4g or more. Almost no one in the USA plays 6.5 al in symphony orchestras and conservatories. Although it may be that according to the emboushure type, very small mouthpieces are required for someone.
And in some countries, on the contrary, they study at conservatories and play in symphony orchestras on .547 and 6.5al. You can name such great players as Michel Becquet (France), Alain Trudel (Canada), Jörgen van Rijen (Netherlands). All of them play at 6.5 size. Few people in these countries play big mouthpieces.
A hundred years ago, when everyone was playing .485 bore and 12c size, 6.5al seemed huge.
So it's all just a matter of tradition. Maybe in the future everyone will play .562 and 3g, who knows?

I think the tradition of equipment is taught in high school/college, while many amateurs/pros go their own "custom way" after college or at the time of their first professional job.

Joe Alessi plays basically a small bass trombone mouthpiece
Pete Sullivan plays a custom 6.5

These are polar opposite US principal players who both are able to get humongous sounds. I can't imagine Joe Alessi ever adjusting, or Pete Sullivan ever playing larger equipment even if the standard becomes 562/578 and 3G/2G.

Plus word on the street is the old fashion brighter more focused sound is coming back into fashion from the 60s/70s, which is quite different than the gargantuan 80s/90s sound

[BrianJohnston]

An update: I was in need of a slightly smaller throat size to help me get to my ideal sound. Thanks to Karl Hammond for the excellent in-person consultation.

[sungfw]

An update: I was in need of a slightly smaller throat size to help me get to my ideal sound. Thanks to Karl Hammond for the excellent in-person consultation.

For the record:

To me, all of those symptoms point to the throat being too large already (but the typical opinion which you already expressed is to try even bigger), and the cup being too bowl shaped (but you think it's good).

Let those who have ears to hear, hear.

[BrianJohnston]

Yes, Doug nailed it, and so did Karl. The pros know what they're doing.

[Danitrb]

Not that this is necessarily relevant, but the last time I spent any time with Charlie - about 12 or 13 years ago - he was playing a Laskey 95D on bass, a 59D (roughly a 4G) on tenor, and a Bach 7C on alto.

In the last years, he is playing on 95D (bass), custom laskey like 2G on tenor and custom laskey like 4C size on alto.

[RustBeltBass]

I agree with you in many ways, but the issue of equipment today is a matter of tradition. I know that in music colleges and conservatories in the US today all students are sent to .547 bore and 5g. A very small number play in colleges on 4g or more. Almost no one in the USA plays 6.5 al in symphony orchestras and conservatories. Although it may be that according to the emboushure type, very small mouthpieces are required for someone.
And in some countries, on the contrary, they study at conservatories and play in symphony orchestras on .547 and 6.5al. You can name such great players as Michel Becquet (France), Alain Trudel (Canada), Jörgen van Rijen (Netherlands). All of them play at 6.5 size. Few people in these countries play big mouthpieces.
A hundred years ago, when everyone was playing .485 bore and 12c size, 6.5al seemed huge.
So it's all just a matter of tradition. Maybe in the future everyone will play .562 and 3g, who knows?

I think the tradition of equipment is taught in high school/college, while many amateurs/pros go their own "custom way" after college or at the time of their first professional job.

Joe Alessi plays basically a small bass trombone mouthpiece
Pete Sullivan plays a custom 6.5

These are polar opposite US principal players who both are able to get humongous sounds. I can't imagine Joe Alessi ever adjusting, or Pete Sullivan ever playing larger equipment even if the standard becomes 562/578 and 3G/2G.

Plus word on the street is the old fashion brighter more focused sound is coming back into fashion from the 60s/70s, which is quite different than the gargantuan 80s/90s sound

Very interesting posts! I will say that even in the 10 years I have lived, studied, and professionally played in the USA, there have definitely been some changes I started to notice when it comes to equipment choices. And that is not a big time span.

But in these years I saw that some of the most influential players and educators switched back from dual to single bore slides (on bass), mouthpieces becoming popular that would have definitely been deemed too small 20 years ago but now people win auditions on it (bass). Tenor trombonists seem to embrace the idea of different valves than Thayers again, several closed wrap designs are popular.

At the same time amazing players and educators set new peak level standards on their “old school” very open and big equipment. The CSO low brass concerto comes to mind.

I would like to think that both the size of the country/number of population as well as the immigration aspect of America contributed and contributes to this ever changing styles of equipment and increasing levels of playing.Not going into names, but over the decades and generations so many people from different musical cultures and upbringings have established and pushed forward the level and continue to do so, and it is somewhat reflected by changing styles in equipment.

Other nations may have similar level of talent and maybe even a better cultural foundation and appreciation for the arts but are less diverse in their pool of educators and performers, so while the level is high, playing styles and equipment styles stay constant for a much longer time.