New Griego Markey Mouthpieces

[Jbeckett]

.

[Jbeckett]

So, question for those that have one in hand: is it the same “Alessi” blank? Reason I’m asking is I’m playing Yamaha, and the Taylor 0 I had hit the last ridge on the piece right when it stopped on the leadpipe. I’m 93-95 player, and am on an Elliott because I cannot find better. Ordered a gs bass piece from Greg but am an old Laskey player. the last ridge, on the Taylor shank seats too far in the pipe, and I’m making sure it doesn’t on these. Anyone have a picture? Probably the easiest way to tell for me.

[tbonesullivan]

So, question for those that have one in hand: is it the same “Alessi” blank? Reason I’m asking is I’m playing Yamaha, and the Taylor 0 I had hit the last ridge on the piece right when it stopped on the leadpipe. I’m 93-95 player, and am on an Elliott because I cannot find better. Ordered a gs bass piece from Greg but am an old Laskey player. the last ridge, on the Taylor shank seats too far in the pipe, and I’m making sure it doesn’t on these. Anyone have a picture? Probably the easiest way to tell for me.

This would also be a question I have, as I had a 613H, and now have an 830. Hammond and Laskey mouthpieces fit fine, with a few mm of shank left, and all the Ferguson M-Series fit as well.

[harrisonreed]

From the video, it doesn't look like it is the Alessi blank, but that doesn't mean the shank taper isn't the same.

The Yamaha basses have a leadpipe that eats up a normal large bore shank. No idea why. I have found it best to use Teflon tape on the bottom 1" of the shank until it seats exactly 1" into the Yamaha leadpipe. It improved everything about the Yamaha bass for me.

[ZacharyThornton]

It isn’t the Artist series blank.

[tbonesullivan]

From the video, it doesn't look like it is the Alessi blank, but that doesn't mean the shank taper isn't the same.

The Yamaha basses have a leadpipe that eats up a normal large bore shank. No idea why. I have found it best to use Teflon tape on the bottom 1" of the shank until it seats exactly 1" into the Yamaha leadpipe. It improved everything about the Yamaha bass for me.

I think the King Duo Gravis is another that would eat shanks, and maybe some of the George Roberts models, or definitely the leadpipes Kanstul. I think though those were meant to work with the GR mouthpiece.

The 620 and 822 Yeo models aren't that way, so it's specific to that one leadpipe, which is used on both the 613H and 830. I measured, and the insertion depth is about 4mm deeper than on my 612 bass.

[Burgerbob]

I have used the 85 in a Yamaha 830 with no issues.

[Jbeckett]

I have used the 85 in a Yamaha 830 with no issues.

Thanks Aiden. I’ll give it a go.

[tbonesullivan]

Thanks Aiden. I’ll give it a go.

Which size were you thinking of going for? I'm leaning towards the 85, but really liked the sound of the 87, though it's at the upper limit of rim sizes I usually use.

[Jbeckett]

90 or 93. Spent a lot of cash on mouthpieces, lately, but there’s so many good/new to try. Usually I’m an 0g/116 player. Trying to go smaller.

[fwbassbone]

So after my April 10 post I played the gigs I had on the 11th and 13th on the GB. I then decided to give the 87 a proper try and just never took it out. Played Brass Band and 10 Piece at NABBA over the weekend and have to say I do like the piece very much.

[tbonesullivan]

So after my April 10 post I played the gigs I had on the 11th and 13th on the GB. I then decided to give the 87 a proper try and just never took it out. Played Brass Band and 10 Piece at NABBA over the weekend and have to say I do like the piece very much.

Out of curiosity, what model / size GB were you playing?

[fwbassbone]

So after my April 10 post I played the gigs I had on the 11th and 13th on the GB. I then decided to give the 87 a proper try and just never took it out. Played Brass Band and 10 Piece at NABBA over the weekend and have to say I do like the piece very much.

Out of curiosity, what model / size GB were you playing?

1 1/4GS .312 #2

[tbonesullivan]

1 1/4GS .312 #2

Thanks! Pretty sure I'm going to go for an 87, once I finish paying off my recent mouthpiece spree. oops.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Been trying A LOT of bass trombone mouthpieces lately......mostly borrowed from a colleague who favors the same size range that I prefer. Got my hands on the Markey 93 a couple of days ago. Very nice mouthpiece and it works rather well for me on most of the musical "obstacle course" that I have put it through. It is very similar to the mouthpiece I have been using for several years......a 2011 Doug Elliott LB115N9. For me, the differences between the two mouthpieces are quite subtle. The best I can describe it is that the Markey 93 would be easier to blend with the trombone section, whereas the DE LB115N9 is an easier sound to blend with tuba. I can certainly see myself using the Markey 93 in a jazz section, while the DE LB115N9 is more orchestral.

As others have described them, this Markey mouthpiece is rather nimble and easy to play. My only complaint is that the tone tends to come apart when I go very loud. This is usually a problem I have with lighter, thin-walled mouthpieces. Now.....I realize that one of the reasons this mouthpiece is so nimble is the lighter mid-to-light construction. However, I am wondering if this mouthpiece would work better for me in the heavier Deco blank.

Does anyone know if Griego will do custom orders? I have already sent an email inquiring about a Markey 93 in a Deco blank, but haven't heard back yet.

[harrisonreed]

Griego loses money any time they turn off their production to chunk out one custom piece, pretty much regardless of how much you pay them. They obviously do custom work, but I think there has to be something in it for them, like a new Markey line, at the end of the process.

Phone is definitely the way to communicate with them, not email, in my experience.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Thanks Harrison. Seems to me that there would be little or no loss of money. The blanks are already created in mass and the measurements for the Markey 93 are already loaded in the CNC lathe. Just chuck a Deco blank in the lathe, type in the code for the Markey 93 and charge me $40-50 more. That's easy money for Griego. I know that I am over simplifying things, but it certainly it should no big deal for them.

What's in it for Griego? How about a very obvious idea......offer ALL of your artist mouthpieces in ALL of the blanks. It's a winning proposition for them. There will be plenty of players who buy different blanks of the same "artist" mouthpieces.

If they are not willing to make a custom mouthpiece or they want to charge me $500, I'll just walk away. I can always spend an afternoon with my buddy who has crazy lathe skills. He'll do it for about $250-300 and a nice Barbeque meal. That's what I did to create my large bore tenor mouthpiece and I am still using it faithfully 15 years later.

Another option is to work within Doug Elliott's system of mouthpieces. His modular system is probably one of the greatest advances for low brass mouthpieces in the last half century.

[harrisonreed]

I don't think the blanks are premade -- it's a multi-axis CNC machine. They put in a giant rod of brass and chunk out whatever piece is programmed in. The cup/rim gets cut and then the outer shape after that, and then the piece is cut off the rod. It keeps going until the rod is gone or the program is complete. I think they do the backbores separately in a different process. But there aren't "blanks" just sitting around.

You would think it would be simple to just tell it to change the blank shape, but that would require a completely different program in the queue. They'd have to do that any time someone wanted a special blank, and I doubt they would want random artist mouthpieces cut into random blank shapes sitting around in stock.

This says nothing of the work and effort that went into researching and testing with the artist to make sure the mouthpiece was already balanced and up to a very high standard. I tried to see if they wouldn't do something similar to what you're describing for me, and they basically said very politely that they might know more than I do about what rim or blank shape is best, and that there was no time in their production queue for custom work.

The issue is that they are a really small shop and have a very high demand.

I'm not saying that they don't do it, or won't do it, just call them.

[tbonesullivan]

Do smaller mouthpiece makers still make blanks? It seems like, especially with bass trombone mouthpieces, it would almost be better to design both the interior and exterior for the desired thickness. I mean, I would think you'd want a larger overall design for a 95 than you would for an 87. I've got the whole Ferguson M-series for OCD reasons, and the exterior design is different on every piece, so I don't think they are made from blanks.

[Burgerbob]

My 85 and 87 are the same blank.

[harrisonreed]

No, is just a rod. As long as the cup and rim dimensions fit inside that, the machine cuts it. This way the rim doesn't get thinner and thinner as the cup diameter increases, unless the outer dimension is equal to the rod diameter.

[tbonesullivan]

My 85 and 87 are the same blank.

How different are they internally? I know the rim is 0.01" wider between the sizes, but aside from the throat specs they don't give much info on the interior.

[Burgerbob]

My 85 and 87 are the same blank.

How different are they internally? I know the rim is 0.01" wider between the sizes, but aside from the throat specs they don't give much info on the interior.

87 is a little bigger in every way, as far as I can tell. Not a massive difference but big enough if you're used to one. Still not decided which one I'm going to keep!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

No, is just a rod. As long as the cup and rim dimensions fit inside that, the machine cuts it. This way the rim doesn't get thinner and thinner as the cup diameter increases, unless the outer dimension is equal to the rod diameter.

Griego's website shows boxes of blanks in their gallery. Take a look at images 6 and 7 in this gallery....

https://www.griegomouthpieces.com/gallery/index.php

[harrisonreed]

No, is just a rod. As long as the cup and rim dimensions fit inside that, the machine cuts it. This way the rim doesn't get thinner and thinner as the cup diameter increases, unless the outer dimension is equal to the rod diameter.

Griego's website shows boxes of blanks in their gallery. Take a look at images 6 and 7 in this gallery....

https://www.griegomouthpieces.com/gallery/index.php

Check out the Facebook page. They updated their equipment maybe 5 years ago and they did a video tour of the facility and them making mouthpieces. The process is as I described above.

At the end of the day I don't work there. Could be totally wrong. Let us know what they tell you when you call em up!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Griego's website shows boxes of blanks in their gallery. Take a look at images 6 and 7 in this gallery....

https://www.griegomouthpieces.com/gallery/index.php

Check out the Facebook page. They updated their equipment maybe 5 years ago and they did a video tour of the facility and them making mouthpieces. The process is as I described above.

At the end of the day I don't work there. Could be totally wrong. Let us know what they tell you when you call em up!

I actually got an email response from the Griego company. They are willing to make a custom model, but the timing must be just right (late July) and they claim it would be about a 3 or 4 hour time investment on their behalf. I imagine the time commitment was stated in order to justify a price that might be rather high. I'm guessing that they would charge $75-80 per hour. Throw in the "materials cost" and packing/shipping and I think the minimum price of a Griego custom mouthpiece would be at least $400.

Now I'm thinking that it might be best to go a different route. If I buy my own Markey 93 and machine a donut booster (something like the Denis Wick mouthpiece booster) to fit around the top of the shank and bottom of the cup, I could probably create the mouthpiece I am looking for at a much more reasonable price.

[Elow]

Has anyone else used an 85 for a large tenor? It is weirdly a really good mouthpiece for tenor. I swapped horns with a friend and didn’t want to go get my DE setup and the markey played super well, it was kind of weird. The sound didn’t get all woofy and uncentered like what normally happens with a medium sized bass trombone mouthpiece.

[Burgerbob]

Markey had a video about that, but I just don't really believe it when he demonstrates things because he's such a monster.

For reference, in a recent masterclass, he played the loudest, most centered, great sounding high Ebs I have ever heard... on his bass with dual bore slide and Markey 87 mouthpiece.

Having tried it in my horn, it works... but it loses much of the tenor character IMO. Much like playing with a 1.5G. Cup is just too large to really be the right thing.

[ZacharyThornton]

I have a Griego Markey 82 on its way

[Elow]

I still prefer my DE setup but i was really impressed by how easily it worked in a tenor. I thought the smallest size was an 85, i would love to try an 82. I didn’t even see them at ITF, is that a new product?

[ZacharyThornton]

Yeah. Just being made. I asked for a smaller version of the 85.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Update on Griego mouthpieces. Last week I did some minor alterations on my Markey 93. I know that some of you are thinking……blasphemy! Anyway, I did the work with Todd Clontz because he has a couple of custom backbore cutting tools that I do not have. We both immediately noticed that the brass was powdery when cut (instead of shavings). This usually means that the brass was stamped or molded before put on a CNC lathe for a final cut. In other words, they are probably doing things a little different over there (not starting with rod brass).

[hornbuilder]

It used to be common for mouthpiece blanks to be cast, back in the pre-cnc days. Certainly casting reduces the amount of scrap material created in making a mouthpiece! But as you saw, cast brass behaves differently to leaded brass rod, when being machined. I know Bach cnc their pieces from rod stock

[Crazy4Tbone86]

For me, it explains why the Griego rep made it sound like it would be a huge and costly inconvenience to make a custom mouthpiece for me. For a custom mouthpiece, they might have needed to start with rod stock and that is not their normal routine. Just a theory.

I was also not pleased to see that the specs were not accurate on my Markey 93. The online catalog claims the throat is .306 inch. It arrived with a .297 throat. Even silver plating should only make a difference of a couple of thousandths. I opened it up to .308 and it works much better for me. A bit brighter than my DE, so it could become my jazz mouthpiece……to be determined. My DE (LB115N with a custom .308 throat shank) is still my most dependable and versatile mouthpiece.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, a .308 bore mp is pretty choice. Love mine

[ChristanGriego]

When I studied mouthpiece making I looked at every style of maker out there. I studied their manufacturing practices and went heavy into CNC equipment. I started off with a basic 2 axis CNC lathe and did make blanks for a few years until I started making the Alessi mouthpiece line. Each series of mouthpieces have different od on the rims. So I purchased a CNC lathe with sub-spindle so that we could make a mouthpiece off the machine without human interaction.

This is the best way to make a mouthpiece and keep concentricity, it also allows us to program from sub-programs and choose what outer shape we want. Now this sounds like custom work would be easy, but for us it involves:

1. Scans
2. Cad work
3. Cam work
4. Program entry and setup
5. Mouthpiece is now made and off to buff/engrave/silver plate.

Often customs are "I want this throat". Easy enough and we will do it.

Many times it's "I want a DE Rim, with this and that, and uh". Well no thanks, it's often not well thought out and many times that customer will play the mouthpiece for 10 minutes and discover that they shelled out $ for an idea that wasn't good for this world.

We do use 360 brass from domestic mills. I'm not sure what "powder" substance was discovered. I'm very healthy and so is my crew. No drugs can be found at GSI. We do use tarnaban after plate to keep the shine in the box, this is possibly what they saw at the lathe.

If you ever find a mouthpiece out of spec, please email me [email protected] to find out if it was intentional "misdirection" that we did in order to keep competitors from figuring out what we're making, or if it was a mistake. We are human and things can happen.

I do make customs when it's viable and marketable ie. Contra mouthpieces. Hey if we develop a better mouse trap....

I started this project to study the original Laskey mouthpiece and see why people liked them. I figured this out, and figured out what the huge issues were. Once I found this I could figure out how to improve them and working with James Markey on the project allowed for someone with a face that's pretty consistent. I am a trombone playa but it just may be that Jim's face see's a bit more practice time than mine

I'll try not to lose my password again to this forum so I can speak up when I find a reason to. I try to keep these forum spaces free of advertisements as it's my personal belief that manufacturers should tread quietly on forums since they are a safe "ad free" space.

Christan Griego

[Posaunus]

I'll try not to lose my password again to this forum so I can speak up when I find a reason to. I try to keep these forum spaces free of advertisements as it's my personal belief that manufacturers should tread quietly on forums since they are a safe "ad free" space.

Christan Griego

Thanks Christan. Good information.

Welcome to TromboneChat!

[harrisonreed]

Love your work and designs, Christan. The 396-A is the sweetest trombone I've ever owned

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Christan, I appreciate your response and input. As previously mentioned, I was able to make the alterations I was aiming for on my Griego Markey 93 mouthpiece and I have attached a photo below.

Concerning the powdery filings, maybe some of it was the tarnaban? The mouthpiece was washed several times, but I don't remember running a mouthpiece brush through the throat and backbore prior to the modifications. We also took off metal in very small increments, so the shavings could have been so small that they appeared powdery. If you state that the mouthpieces are 360 rod brass, I will take your word.

In the end, I have a mouthpiece that suits my needs. I was searching for a mouthpiece that would be slightly brighter, crisper and faster responding than my current primary mouthpiece. I plan to use it for some upcoming big band rehearsals/performances and that is a solid endorsement for Griego mouthpieces. After all, (like many other players) less than 1% of the mouthpieces that I have tried ever make it to a rehearsal or gig!

https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=15754

[MTbassbone]

What is the 85 rim profile? Is similar to the Laskey 85? Is it a wide or thin rim?

[Burgerbob]

What is the 85 rim profile? Is similar to the Laskey 85? Is it a wide or thin rim?

Similar to an 85MD, not a wide rim but a bit more so than the 85MD. More comfortable for sure.

[RustBeltBass]

I have enjoyed reading through these posts. Especially cool when builders and technicians chime in.

Hope this won’t be too off topic but I would like to know what the “huge issues” with Laskey are that made CG come up with this project. If I understood correctly the Markey series is an improved Laskey then ?

Personally, I always thought that the Laskey 93 is one of the most amazing pieces ever made. I know that it’s still getting a lot of “face time” in the symphony scene in America. The only issue I saw in the 1.5 years I used it was that it’s pretty unforgiving when I was not in my best shape, more than other mouthpieces I was used to. The articulation on the Laskey was amazing, which I felt was always a drawback for me on Griego mouthpieces I tried, minus maybe the Taylor 0. So therefore I am really hoping to have a Markey model in my hands soon.

[BassBoneFL]

I have enjoyed reading through these posts. Especially cool when builders and technicians chime in.

Hope this won’t be too off topic but I would like to know what the “huge issues” with Laskey are that made CG come up with this project. If I understood correctly the Markey series is an improved Laskey then ?

Personally, I always thought that the Laskey 93 is one of the most amazing pieces ever made. I know that it’s still getting a lot of “face time” in the symphony scene in America. The only issue I saw in the 1.5 years I used it was that it’s pretty unforgiving when I was not in my best shape, more than other mouthpieces I was used to. The articulation on the Laskey was amazing, which I felt was always a drawback for me on Griego mouthpieces I tried, minus maybe the Taylor 0. So therefore I am really hoping to have a Markey model in my hands soon.

Judging by your comments and my experience on both pieces, I think you might like the Markey.

I can't speak as to what issues CG and JM were trying to remedy, but the main differences between the two I noticed were the Griego's rim felt more comfortable in extended playing sessions and the Griego feels slightly more free blowing. Sound profiles are very similar with the Griego perhaps being a little "rounder". Clarity and responsiveness again very similar with the Griego maybe being less "locked in" when moving between partials.

[tbonesullivan]

What is the 85 rim profile? Is similar to the Laskey 85? Is it a wide or thin rim?

Similar to an 85MD, not a wide rim but a bit more so than the 85MD. More comfortable for sure.

I will say that was always one thing I always wish is different about my 85MD - the rim. It's somewhat flat on top, without much of a contour, and somewhat thin compared to what I'm used to. I'm not saying I need something like a Minick L, but a little more comfy would be better.

[slidenick]

Harold nailed it. We had to alter the rim. The original rim locked your face into one register and wouldn't allow us to be flexible between low and high registers. I would have to reset my face to go between registers which I thought was just me. When Jim had the same experience we dove into the rim area and found something that allowed freedom.

[BGuttman]

Just a quick note: Slidenick is Christan Griego. Slidenick is his old account that he forgot his password to.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Harold nailed it. We had to alter the rim. The original rim locked your face into one register and wouldn't allow us to be flexible between low and high registers. I would have to reset my face to go between registers which I thought was just me. When Jim had the same experience we dove into the rim area and found something that allowed freedom.

Thank you for explaining this. Since my last entry on this thread, I have spent many hours on the Markey 93 exclusively. If there is one thing that really strikes me about this mouthpiece is that I am able to move up and down the registers rather easily with a nice sound without shifting my face around.

Part of my daily practice routine is to play a selection, usually something rather melodious that has a range of about an octave or a couple notes more. I might transpose the melody, but I eventually I play the selection in three different octaves. My attempt is to NOT shift my chops/mouthpiece and try to keep the sound vibrant and clear in all three octaves (sometimes I shift the octave in the middle of the phrase to keep myself honest). Over the years, one of my biggest struggles on bass trombone has been to maintain a beautiful sound when moving from lower to higher octaves. This mouthpiece does help me move from below the bass clef staff to pitches on the staff and above the staff easier with more consistency. If that was the intent of the design.....I guess I should say "mission accomplished!"

[tbonesullivan]

Just got my Griego Markey 87 Yesterday, and I am definitely enjoying it so far. I've been playing mostly tenor lately so it'll take a bit to get my bass chops back in shape, but it's definitely a nice piece.

Comparing it directly to a Laskey 85MD, the rim is way more comfortable. The somewhat flat rim of the Laskey was something I always had a bit of trouble with on that mouthpiece. I know the 87 is just a tad bigger than the 85MD, but it didn't feel like my range suffered at all.

Compared to a Hammond 20BL, the rim is similar, but the 87 definitely helps me with air efficiency due to the smaller throat.

I haven't gotten a chance to compare it to my Ferguson JR, but I should have time for that tonight, once I figure out which mouthpiece case it is in.

[Falin]

In the youtube-video, it looks like Markey has some kind of hand grip. Does anyone one what kind?

[BassBoneFL]

In the youtube-video, it looks like Markey has some kind of had grip. Does anyone one what kind?

I don't know which video you're talking about, but I believe Jim and some of the other BSO section use the Sheridan Get-A-Grip (or at least did for a while)