Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:26 pm
This has been a really entertaining topic. If the 88HNV is nothing else, at least it gave us this!
You should see some of the posts on Sax on the Web about the Selmer Supreme alto sax....
I can only imagine how those debates and topics can be.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:10 am
by hyperbolica
I'm maybe a little late, but ...
I'm a life long 88h owner. But I usually play a 525 slide on mine, and even my 547 slide has had the cork barrel/grip assembly replaced with a modern one with a removable leadpipe, so it's not 100% vintage. (even so, I play horns other than the 88h - I mostly play a small bore Courtois, or a Chinese euphonium, or an Olds Recording, or my Kanstul bass, or my Conn-Bach-Blessing frankenbone, so I'm not married to a single horn or a single brand or a single era)
About 15 years ago I bought a gen2 8h with a 525 slide from Steve Ferguson, and it was every bit the horn that my Elkhart is. I'd like a chance to play the new models. That will be the way to tell how good they are.
But at the same time I've passed over a number of Conns, new and old. I don't think there's a new small bore Conn that doesn't bore me. Opposite is true for Shires - I don't like the big ones, but the MD+ is one of the best horns I've ever owned.
Just to say that horns are more complex than you can usually capture in specs. So you don't really know how it plays until you play one. I think age is a factor in how some horns play. If they could reproduce that, they would, but they haven't yet. Even the Shires that people faun over seem rather... sterile... free of personality to me. I grew up with that 88h sound in my head, and it remains. It's a good sound. So is my 79h. And all the other horns I've kept after a few years of ebay and trombone forum classifieds safari. It's complex. There is no one factor that overrides everything else. And then there's personal taste...
I think age is a factor in how some horns play. If they could reproduce that, they would, but they haven't yet.
Going back to gimmicks, remember when companies were cryogenic freezing horns to change the horn at the molecular level to change, hopefully, the sound to a more vintage sound?
I have Gen II (i think. It's an early 2000s horn. If I'm wrong i don't mind being corrected) 8H an ex bought me. She bought it because i expressed a passing interest in it and her Sam Ash discount brought the price down. It played ok, but as it was a gift, and while it was B stock, it was my first ever shiny new horn. Had it a week before it rolled off the top of my car in my double bag and crumpled the bell. After the Boneyard fixed straighted it out it played better. I never used it much since i didn't do anything legit at the time. The past few years, before i bought my Elkharts, I've had more work done and it plays vastly better than when i first got it. Stuff that comes off the line nowadays is more hit and miss imo. Now, that being said, every company goes thru periods where quality is deficient compared to other periods where quality is better (Abilene Conns come to mind, but I've played a few good Texas Conns) and I'll be honest, the slide my from my '68 8H sounded like crap with the bell it was paired with. The Eastlake 2547 slide i have with it sounds stellar. But in my experience, as far as consistency and craftsmanship go, the Elkharts I've played have been way better than newer horns I've tried. But as was stated before and as i have agreed that trying this new 88H will be the only way to determine its worth.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:36 am
by LeTromboniste
I don't really get the hate. I'd be curious to try one. And a new addition in the 88H range at that price point is totally welcome. It's not like they're introducing a new, much more pricy line that isn't actually bringing a anything new.
That wrap is hideous though. I like the concept of the wrap (tons of other versions of that circuit shape around that are really nice), but the execution... Ouch. With all these ferrules around the bends it looks like a wrap re-build made by some tech using parts that were lying around rather than a carefully engineered factory build.
That wrap is hideous though. I like the concept of the wrap (tons of other versions of that circuit shape around that are really nice), but the execution... Ouch. With all these ferrules around the bends it looks like a wrap re-build made by some tech using parts that were lying around rather than a carefully engineered factory build.
Pretty sure almost every part there is from the current parts bin- closed wrap and open wrap 88H parts in a different configuration. Very cheap and sensible, but not especially good looking!
That wrap is hideous though. I like the concept of the wrap (tons of other versions of that circuit shape around that are really nice), but the execution... Ouch. With all these ferrules around the bends it looks like a wrap re-build made by some tech using parts that were lying around rather than a carefully engineered factory build.
Pretty sure almost every part there is from the current parts bin- closed wrap and open wrap 88H parts in a different configuration. Very cheap and sensible, but not especially good looking!
I've seen Minick conversions like that. The Boneyard did my wrap that way at my request. Aiden's correct in that they're parts that the factory already had.
TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:03 pm
Man, I do not understand the tone of so many posts on the forum lately. I'm reminded of this:
Ricky Gervais is an unfunny ass that gets WAY too much attention for his dribble.
I have a theory that anyone who can't see the humor in his podcast (in which he interviewed the same guy every episode on a variety of subjects the guy had no insight into) is a hostile alien from another planet.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:58 pm
by Bach5G
TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:03 pm
Man, I do not understand the tone of so many posts on the forum lately. I'm reminded of this:
I agree with the Ranger’s comments regarding the tone of many comments posted here these days. Gervais kind of nails it. “I don’t want no fucking guitar lessons.” “The Elkhart 88Hs were rubbish.” “You’re an idiot.”
I’m reminded of the saying that university politics are vicious because the stakes are so small. And it’s not just here on TTC.
I don’t know why everyone is on edge.
I really, really wanted to like a new Elkhart 88H I bought a while back. It just didn’t work out and I ended up buying some random Shires parts off the Internet.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:56 pm
by harrisonreed
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:11 pm
"Hey, so and so is playing the new and improved (insert generic brand/model)." But there's nothing new or improved of any real substance. They could've used Matthew McConaughey to market the horn and you'd get from younger trombone players "Wow! Matthew McConaughey plays (insert generic brand/model)" instead of asking the obvious questions an older more experienced player would ask like "Matthew McConaughey plays trombone"?
Hahaha define "young" -- this reference is dated by nearly three decades. That guy was popular with young people in like 1993-1997. Then he appeared in Contact...
But yes, I'd be surprised if he played the trombone!
Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:11 pm
"Hey, so and so is playing the new and improved (insert generic brand/model)." But there's nothing new or improved of any real substance. They could've used Matthew McConaughey to market the horn and you'd get from younger trombone players "Wow! Matthew McConaughey plays (insert generic brand/model)" instead of asking the obvious questions an older more experienced player would ask like "Matthew McConaughey plays trombone"?
Hahaha define "young" -- this reference is dated by nearly three decades. That guy was popular with young people in like 1993-1997. Then he appeared in Contact...
But yes, I'd be surprised if he played the trombone!
Alright alright alright.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:11 pm
by Thrawn22
Meh
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:19 pm
by harrisonreed
Is that the new model? Looks like it comes with red rot on the bell out of the box.
Look at the bell near the tuning slide
Actually, that thing looks well used. How is that the new model
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:23 pm
by Burgerbob
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:19 pm
Is that the new model? Looks like it comes with red rot on the bell out of the box.
Look at the bell near the tuning slide
Actually, that thing looks well used. How is that the new model
It's the horn he had John Sandhagen put together for him. Not sure what it has to do with the HNV...
Lol. I can't post a pic without having text. Say what you will but it plays great and I'd put it up against new out. But to each their own.
I bet it plays great though. I see that yours doesn't have the extra bend in the wrap to bring it below the bells like the new version does.
Huh. Well I'll be damned. I didn't notice that before. Thanks for pointing that out. So i guess that makes it slightly different than the Minick conversion.
It does. Before i got lucky finding an Elkhart 88H bell on ebay for a reasonable price (great price actually), i was toying with making my '68 8H bell section convertable. I've gotten along for a long time using an 8H, but having a valve on lower parts makes it easier on me and i think makes those who hear with their eyes more comfortable. Sandhagen did a great job.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:52 pm
by Posaunus
The 88HNV looks a bit more "pit-friendly" with an F-attachment wrap that doesn't project so far to the rear.
Much more compact than an 88HO.
This is great news but I can tell you I have a sneaking suspicion when this new Conn is formally released to the wild, that MAP pricing is going to be higher. Steve may be generously passing along the savings for his as they are initial production. In fact, I will bet the case and engraving follow with the rest of the Conn 8* models and they get a price bump including the Lindbergs. Traditionally C-S pricing increases in the fall timeframe. I would have to reason the retail for the 88HV is more than likely $3,300. P.S. - I’m a bean counter/budget guy by trade so I just look at numbers most of the day, but when it involves trombones I have a level of excitement that above norm.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:57 pm
by Pistolero
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:10 am
I'm maybe a little late, but ...
I'm a life long 88h owner. But I usually play a 525 slide on mine, and even my 547 slide has had the cork barrel/grip assembly replaced with a modern one with a removable leadpipe, so it's not 100% vintage. (even so, I play horns other than the 88h - I mostly play a small bore Courtois, or a Chinese euphonium, or an Olds Recording, or my Kanstul bass, or my Conn-Bach-Blessing frankenbone, so I'm not married to a single horn or a single brand or a single era)
About 15 years ago I bought a gen2 8h with a 525 slide from Steve Ferguson, and it was every bit the horn that my Elkhart is. I'd like a chance to play the new models. That will be the way to tell how good they are.
But at the same time I've passed over a number of Conns, new and old. I don't think there's a new small bore Conn that doesn't bore me. Opposite is true for Shires - I don't like the big ones, but the MD+ is one of the best horns I've ever owned.
Just to say that horns are more complex than you can usually capture in specs. So you don't really know how it plays until you play one. I think age is a factor in how some horns play. If they could reproduce that, they would, but they haven't yet. Even the Shires that people faun over seem rather... sterile... free of personality to me. I grew up with that 88h sound in my head, and it remains. It's a good sound. So is my 79h. And all the other horns I've kept after a few years of ebay and trombone forum classifieds safari. It's complex. There is no one factor that overrides everything else. And then there's personal taste...
New to the Board, but can you put a 52H slide on a 88H?
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:29 pm
by hyperbolica
Yeah, I think that works.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:09 pm
by Pistolero
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:29 pm
Yeah, I think that works.
Sorry - can't see. Says I need a Facebook account.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:28 am
by Andyc
Has anyone had a chance to try one yet? How does it compare to a vintage Elkhart 88H? If so what are your thoughts?
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:28 pm
by EOlson9
Keith Hilson at the Schmitt Music Trombone Shop posted a video just recently about it. His is the part 2 video, as the other guy (can't remember his name) did his own, as part 1.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:17 pm
by Andyc
I saw that. It was excellent.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:21 pm
by EOlson9
Makes me want to have my store get one in for me to demo, but I don't have the cash to buy one...
I saw that. I'm not that much on the up and up with Conn 88H bells. Do they normally have a brazing seam on the spout? I remember that they weld the flares onto the spout of the bell, so there usually isn't a brazing line there.
I saw that. I'm not that much on the up and up with Conn 88H bells. Do they normally have a brazing seam on the spout? I remember that they weld the flares onto the spout of the bell, so there usually isn't a brazing line there.
IIRC, brazing is when you use de metal itself to make the joint, and soldering, when you use another alloy...
So, on my 88HTO bell, there is soldering of the spout (yellow line) that is brazed onto the flare (you don't see a solder line between the spout and the flare).
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:29 am
by tbonesullivan
Slidennis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:07 amIIRC, brazing is when you use de metal itself to make the joint, and soldering, when you use another alloy...
So, on my 88HTO bell, there is soldering of the spout (yellow line) that is brazed onto the flare (you don't see a solder line between the spout and the flare).
I think this indicates the differences the best: "Brazing differs from welding in that it does not involve melting the work pieces and from soldering in using higher temperatures for a similar process, while also requiring much more closely fitted parts than when soldering"
The seams in bells are brazed together with by melting brass into the joint. That's why the line looks yellow: they use yellow brass for the brazing. Often, for yellow brass bells they use red brass to braze, and vice versa, so that they can see the seam, and then put it on the bottom of the bell where it is least noticeable.
If there is no brazing seam visible, then the connection is welded.
Slidennis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:07 amIIRC, brazing is when you use de metal itself to make the joint, and soldering, when you use another alloy...
So, on my 88HTO bell, there is soldering of the spout (yellow line) that is brazed onto the flare (you don't see a solder line between the spout and the flare).
I think this indicates the differences the best: "Brazing differs from welding in that it does not involve melting the work pieces and from soldering in using higher temperatures for a similar process, while also requiring much more closely fitted parts than when soldering"
The seams in bells are brazed together with by melting brass into the joint. That's why the line looks yellow: they use yellow brass for the brazing. Often, for yellow brass bells they use red brass to braze, and vice versa, so that they can see the seam, and then put it on the bottom of the bell where it is least noticeable.
If there is no brazing seam visible, then the connection is welded.
I don't think you can braze yellow brass using red brass solder, as the melting temperature increases with the copper content. Logically, if you tried to braze yellow brass using red brass solder, you'd burn through the bell before your solder has even melted.
It is possible to have a very discreet seam, quasi invisible, by using brass solder that is as close as possible in composition to the piece you're soldering, but the closer you get, the smaller the margin between the melting points is, and the trickier it is to solder without destroying the piece.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:19 pm
by hyperbolica
Brazing still uses a filler, but a filler with higher melting point than lead/Solder. I think silver is used for that.
Yamaha uses welding where the same metal is used to join the stem and flare. I'm guessing that's the process Horn Guys is saying is being used on the new Conns. Elkharts are high temp brazed, so they have a visible colored seam along the stem and one around the flare. Welding is much higher temp than brazing. I'm sure the bells require a lot of annealing and other heat treat processes to get them back where they need to be after welding.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:12 pm
by BGuttman
Brazing brass can use a brass filler or a copper filler. Using a brass filler of the same zinc content as the items to be brazed can minimize any visible seam line.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:21 am
by hyperbolica
Has anyone seen an 8hnv version? That's where I'd be interested. The 88hnv looks good, but I've already got all the 547 I need.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:27 am
by hornbuilder
Steve has the bell rim thing backwards.
Soldered bell rims can bleed, "because" they're soldered. Non-soldered bell rims don't bleed, because they're "not" soldered.
Re: Conn 88HNV
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:11 am
by hyperbolica
hornbuilder wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:27 am
Steve has the bell rim thing backwards.
Soldered bell rims can bleed, "because" they're soldered. Non-soldered bell rims don't bleed, because they're "not" soldered.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
But he definitely uses the word "welded" when describing how the stem is attached to the flare. But if the stem is soldered, wouldn't welding the flare on blow out the solder joint? Yamaha has been welding bells for a long time, so this isn't really new, but if they can improve on the old Elkhart bells, I'd get one. I don't think this has to be something the world has never seen before to be interesting. If it were something new, it wouldn't be an 88h. It would be some other number, and you'd have other expectations. Your expectations are pretty locked in when you use the model number 88h, at least mine are.
