TromboneChat

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:06 pm

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:00 pm So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.


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Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:02 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 9:06 pm

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.


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I used to think that way.

Then I realized that my privilege as a white person, my assumption that due process and law will work for everyone equally, was the reason that idea was so easy to embrace. When I get pulled over, or see a police officer, my assumption is that I’m not going to be murdered. People of color can’t make that assumption. That’s privilege. Same thing with the legal system. Same thing with employment. Same thing across society.

We need to be better allies.

Protecting oppressors only hurts victims. Tolerating public racist rants only gives racist violence a backdrop that normalizes it.

And being fired from an orchestra isnt in the same universe as being murdered at a traffic stop.

Im done intellectualizing this because for the victims of racism (and sexism, and homophobia, and transphobia, etc etc etc) it isn’t an intellectual issue. It’s a matter of life and death. It’s an everyday issue of fear and oppression.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:44 am Where's your data that due process does not work for individuals of color? How can you state that people of color do not have the same economic equality when Asian Americans earn more than white Americans? Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting.

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:55 am

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:44 am Where's your data that due process does not work for individuals of color? How can you state that people of color do not have the same economic equality when Asian Americans earn more than white Americans? Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting.

Wow. Just wow.

Please read (carefully):
Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People:
https://tinyurl.com/y79dnoc8

White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism:
https://tinyurl.com/ybnbt84a

So You Want to Talk About Race:
https://tinyurl.com/yde7bkjc

Then we can talk.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:08 am Wow to facts? I wish you would address the points I made instead of sending me to articles. The only way we can progress in a conversation about such a sensitive issue is to address the facts. In the U.S., based on "Median houseland income in the past 12 months (in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars)". American Community Survey. United States Census Bureau. 2014., out of the top 10 wage earners 6 are of Asian or South African descent. Now, South Africa could mean white or black, so we can ignore the for the moment if you'd like. This would support the view that certain ethnic minorities are doing quite well economically.

I also wrote "Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting." Why not address that directly? I am of the view that most people can succeed in spite of some morons out there, and that people are inherently good and want to do the right thing.

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:54 am

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:08 am Wow to facts? I wish you would address the points I made instead of sending me to articles. The only way we can progress in a conversation about such a sensitive issue is to address the facts. In the U.S., based on "Median houseland income in the past 12 months (in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars)". American Community Survey. United States Census Bureau. 2014., out of the top 10 wage earners 6 are of Asian or South African descent. Now, South Africa could mean white or black, so we can ignore the for the moment if you'd like. This would support the view that certain ethnic minorities are doing quite well economically.

I also wrote "Does it not boil down to individual choices and a bit of luck when it comes to success, in spite of the actions of a few racist individuals? Injustices exist but it is not as grim a picture as you are painting." Why not address that directly? I am of the view that most people can succeed in spite of some morons out there, and that people are inherently good and want to do the right thing.

You would benefit from an education about systemic racism from points of view of people of color. Good luck with your research.

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:57 am Whoa! Don't most African and Indian immigrants represent the more educated to begin with? Also, I can't see how there's any comparison between them and African-Americans, because what it doesn't say is that, no matter how successful they might be, they're just another inferior colored person to some cracker.

In a matter of months, an African-American woman was blown away by cops and she was just sitting, peacefully, in her own home: an African-American man just jogging down the street, gets assaulted and murdered by a bunch of vigilantes; now this latest death at the hands of law enforcement. Actions speak louder than words.

If I were black, I would be sick. This has been going on for centuries, things explode and lip service says there will be action to right the wrongs, and hen practically nothing is changed. Business as usual.

If I were black, I would be wary every time I left the house.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:56 pm I don't support racism but Why should you private doings on social media affect your professional life?

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:59 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:56 pm I don't support racism but Why should you private doings on social media affect your professional life?

How would you like it if someone you worked with had views against you? Would you feel safe in that kind of environment, especially considering she did not exactly keep her views quiet?

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:59 pm https://theviolinchannel.com/austin-sym ... -comments/

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:30 pm 8Park, what you say on a public forum can reflect on your employer. It is implied that if they hired you they agreed with you. The comments posted on the Violin Channel seem to indicate that this person is a Trumpian with a tin ear toward African-Americans. Given this was broadcast, the Orchestra needed to distance itself from her in order to avoid offending African-American subscribers and patrons.

If she just expressed these feelings to herself or her close friends this might not have been so offensive.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:44 pm Someone already wrote about intolerance on both sides of the issue in this thread. I wrote about redemption.

When a person attributes certain negative stereotypes to an entire race it is difficult to tolerate, which is what she did in those posts of hers. She might be a terrific artist and person outside these views but, as at least a couple of posters pointed out, in the end it is about keeping subscribers and it is hard to do so when a person goes so public with her views. I get your view point but the reality in this situation outstrips the ideal.

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:55 pm Racism is a heinous system of institutionalized subjugation, exploitation, marginalization and violence.

Why should it be tolerated in any way, shape or form?

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:11 pm I will agree that it should not be tolerated, but do you have no compassion for the person with those views, or are you willing to simply cast their entire being aside as trash? We're talking about human beings on both sides here, who by the very nature of being alive deserve compassion and empathy and love. Something makes a person have hateful views and until we talk about those views under the light of reason with that person we have no chance of changing views and attitudes.

You may know the story of the musician Daryl Davis who actively seeks out Klan members and convinces those who will listen to him to change. To me, that's the only way we're going to change a person's hatred to love, by one person talking with another person, human to human. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:26 pm

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:11 pm I will agree that it should not be tolerated, but do you have no compassion for the person with those views, or are you willing to simply cast their entire being aside as trash? We're talking about human beings on both sides here, who by the very nature of being alive deserve compassion and empathy and love. Something makes a person have hateful views and until we talk about those views under the light of reason with that person we have no chance of changing views and attitudes.

You may know the story of the musician Daryl Davis who actively seeks out Klan members and convinces those who will listen to him to change. To me, that's the only way we're going to change a person's hatred to love, by one person talking with another person, human to human. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

yes

I just want to put this into persepctive here. She made a bad choice and posted some slightly innapropiate comments on facebook and as a result her life is basicaly ruined. She was fired from all her jobs and internationally humiliated. I'm sure every trombonist in the and probably most classical musicians and many non musicians are aware of this story, probably due to the current events causing people to overdramatise. The story has even made it to many major news outlets. She prbably won't ever be able to get a decent job again and alot of people are going to leave her. Her life is ruined. I'm not saying racism is ok but the the response is major overkill.

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:51 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:26 pm
yes

I just want to put this into persepctive here. She made a bad choice and posted some slightly innapropiate comments on facebook and as a result her life is basicaly ruined. She was fired from all her jobs and internationally humiliated. I'm sure every trombonist in the and probably most classical musicians and many non musicians are aware of this story, probably due to the current events causing people to overdramatise. The story has even made it to many major news outlets. She prbably won't ever be able to get a decent job again and alot of people are going to leave her. Her life is ruined. I'm not saying racism is ok but the the response is major overkill.

Hopefully it will keep other idiot’s mouths shut.


You know people are literally dying, and you’re concerned about her not going to be able to play professionally. There’s always a dollar general she can work at, suits her better anyways.

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:06 pm First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:07 pm

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:06 pm First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.

precisely

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:11 pm This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:20 pm

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:11 pm This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.

I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:06 pm First, I think what was posted is abhorrent. I find it, personally, repugnant.

Second, a right that distinguishes democracies like our own is freedom of speech, a precious right. It is permissible as long as it is not against the law. I am not aware of any law these comments violate.

Regarding comments reflecting poorly on an employer, she was acting solely in a personal manner and not as a representative of the organization of which she is a member. Nor did she express her opinion on any official company media.

Silencing opposing opinion, even when you find it ugly, is a right that must continue to be protected. One man's offensive post today is another one's tomorrow. You have to be careful what you wish for.

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:11 pm This person created a hostile environment for their section, orchestra colleagues, and ticket holders. Words like theirs are not harmless, and while they are protected from prosecution by the first amendment (subject to certain limits), nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. Forgiveness requires that the offender recognize their wrongdoing, apologize for it, and atone for it. So far none of this has happened. Forgiveness also does not imply that there can be no consequences for actions.

At some point, we have to be pragmatic. Yes, it's worth celebrating when a racist is redeemed. That's not what is happening here. If that person wants to set that goal for themself after losing their career, and being publicly shamed after making public racist comments, then good for them. That does not erase what they did, and I'd argue it wouldn't even make it right. This bell cannot be un-rung.

If I wanted to forgive someone I sat next to for being a terrible person, I would go to church.

I don't go to church.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:24 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:20 pm
I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:28 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:24 pm

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

Can FB posting be done privately? Is this something the trombonist in question could have activated to discuss racist views with like-minded people?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:24 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:20 pm
I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

If you humiliate and embarrass yourself on something that clearly was NOT a private forum, why wouldn't your employer take action? It's no different than if a police officer did the same on their FB account, or if someone who worked at whole foods was supporting extremist environmental terrorism on their account. If you do that in a way that gathers attention, which this has, you've already embarrassed and humiliated YOURSELF, and all that's left is for your employer to fire you for the legitimate reason of bringing bad press and putting the company in a bad light.

That's how the world works outside of student land.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:30 pm I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:32 pm

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:28 pm

Can FB posting be done privately? Is this something the trombonist in question could have activated to discuss racist views with like-minded people?

yes

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:30 pm I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:34 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:24 pm

Since when is Facebook a private forum?

If you humiliate and embarrass yourself on something that clearly was NOT a private forum, why wouldn't your employer take action? It's no different than if a police officer did the same on their FB account, or if someone who worked at whole foods was supporting extremist environmental terrorism on their account. If you do that in a way that gathers attention, which this has, you've already embarrassed and humiliated YOURSELF, and all that's left is for your employer to fire you for the legitimate reason of bringing bad press and putting the company in a bad light.

That's how the world works outside of student land.

except terrorism is illegal.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:35 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:30 pm I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.


This is a naive view. Musicians are the very face of their organization. The public that supports the orchestra will know if a member of that orchestra was posting racist comments publicly, which is the case here. There may even have been a clause in her contact that forbids her from expressing certain views or opinions publicly, or putting the company in a bad light. In either case, the employer has every right to cut dead weight out from their organization, especially when times are already so hard for orchestras.

I understand and I never said she was in the right. I just think that the response was overkill. Of course though that also reflects our current time and events.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:06 pm

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:55 pm Racism is a heinous system of institutionalized subjugation, exploitation, marginalization and violence.

Why should it be tolerated in any way, shape or form?

Because freedom of speech is a thing.
It would be different if she was going around her place of work and makind rude comments but no, she posted them on her private facebook account which has no affiliation to her employer.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:43 pm
I understand and I never said she was in the right. I just think that the response was overkill. Of course though that also reflects our current time and events.