Dangers of doubling - changing mpc size daily

[ArbanRubank]

I personally believe there are two basic schools of thought:

1) Select the mpc size/shape/config for technique and shape the sound

2) Select the mpc size/shape/config for sound and shape the technique.

Since I am better at working up the technique to suit the equipment, I let my sound concept guide my mpc selection. I play three somewhat similarly-sized horns and yet am able to get three distinct lovely sound profiles by varying my mpc selection. Some are easier for me to execute technique on than others, so some require more practice.

I presume that for many (if not most) players who play multiple instruments (or just one), they achieve a compromise somewhere between my concept #1 & #2. Not me, though. My concept #2 rules for my use.

Someone may believe that THE perfect mpc, in terms of size/shape/config, coupled with THE perfect instrument will perfectly bring together my concepts #1 & #2. Okay. That's a noble quest and one most of us are probably on, whether we choose to admit it or not. Although, there are some who will steadfastly and resolutely stick with something to the sweet or bitter end. I think there is some merit in that as well.

I have heard guys who favor technique over sound. I can't listen to them for very long. I would rather listen to someone with a wonderful sound who plays more simplistically if he must. It's kinda rare to hear guys who have both. They are the superstars or our world and when I hear them, I can focus on whatever style and passion they exhibit in their playing.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

My most frequently played instruments are a small tenor and a bass. I use a 1.04” and a 1.14” with them respectively. I don’t play trombone for a living anymore, but when I was I never really thought the mouthpiece size difference was what was holding me back. Not having 100% of my time invested in one instrument was one factor and the other was just not being able to practice that much because I was either playing, in class, doing homework, or having a social life.

So I don’t think that switching up mouthpieces is necessarily bad, but the reality of separating your time is unavoidable. Not that players don’t do incredibly on multiple instruments, but there’s always room to be better no matter who you are.

[johntarr]

Speaking of doubling, or actually tripling, I saw Christian Lindberg perform the other night. He started off with a piece for alto and small chamber orchestra, conducted three pieces and then finished of with a virtuoso display on large tenor.

[ArbanRubank]

Speaking of doubling, or actually tripling, I saw Christian Lindberg perform the other night. He started off with a piece for alto and small chamber orchestra, conducted three pieces and then finished of with a virtuoso display on large tenor.

Maybe he and James Morrison could make the point that if you are going to double, then truly double. Perhaps two radically different set-ups would be of much less "concern" to the chops; kinda like cycling vs running - as opposed to cycling on two slightly different bikes with slightly different seats, handlebar configs, gear ratios, etc.

Could be that the chops may find playing a bass with say, a Yamaha 60L then playing a King 3BF (or the like) with say, a Bach 7C to be so different as to not be in as much contention as playing two similar yet different horns with two similar yet different mpcs.

Could be a good approach for some of us to consider...

[imsevimse]

No problem to play different rims. You need a strong technique in the first place. When you no longer are bound to play a special rim or size on your tenor mouthpiece then you migh twant to start doubling on a bass mouthpiece. Try what works. I play different rims on alto, small tenor, large tenor and bass trombone and it does not give me problems.

/Tom

[afugate]

When I first started playing, I learned a number of bad habits that made things difficult on the horn. Among the very worst was placing the mouthpiece on an unformed embouchure. This led to my screwing the chops into the mouthpiece after it was set.

Years (decades) later, I took a lesson with Doug Elliott that taught me some basic embouchure mechanics. Since then I've discovered I can switch from tuba, trombone, trumpet, without too much difficulty. Before, I had trouble even going from tenor to bass.

Yes, there are still significant differences between the various horns. But things are sooooo much easier for me now because I've learned to set my chops before putting the mouthpiece in place.

I have no idea if this is helpful to anyone else. But it was helpful to me, so I thought I'd share.

As always, YMMV.
--Andy in OKC

[harrisonreed]

Speaking of doubling, or actually tripling, I saw Christian Lindberg perform the other night. He started off with a piece for alto and small chamber orchestra, conducted three pieces and then finished of with a virtuoso display on large tenor.

His tenor and alto mouthpieces fall squarely within the "use a similar rim for everything" category, fwiw. They are radically almost the same rim 4CL vs 13CL.

Published specs might say otherwise, but they feel exactly the same, probably due to the rim shape.

[NorthernEuph]

I play euphonium, large tenor, small tenor regularly and alto and sackbut less so. I use a DE setup with different cups and shanks for the first two and three different mouthpieces for the last three. I've found that I can't achieve the sound I'm after without using a mouthpiece that I feel is best suited for the instrument. Having said that, the biggest challenge in making the switch is using the air correctly for each instrument as each ensemble calls for a different approach to sound, dynamics and articulation - not to mention blending with the section. The embouchure has to adapt to each mouthpiece and instrument, but it's the air that makes the embouchure function. When the air is working properly, everything falls into place. In addition, I have to be mindful of the character of each instrument and that calls for a different mental approach before playing a single note. I also take the approach that the euph and large tenor are "home base" and the others branch out from there. Of course, one has to be mindful of the embouchure, but it can start to have negative effects if you obsess too much about the flesh. And I practice switching back and forth as there are rare occassions when I have to switch instruments in a concert.

[Tremozl]

Studio musicians who play film scores are expected to double. Bass trombone doubles contrabass trombone, and tuba doubles cimbasso. I know it'd be possible to preserve the same mouthpiece between tuba and cimbasso but it's not gonna work well between bass and contrabass trb.

[ChadA]

I play tenor and bass regularly. For background: In my orchestra, I'm the bass trombonist, but I've subbed on principal and second. In other pro orchestras, I've subbed and played extra mostly on bass, but occasionally on tenor (and once on euphonium). In my orchestra's brass quintet, I'm the (tenor) trombonist. I've doubled on touring Broadway shows: tenor/bass and bass/tuba, each for multiple shows/runs. I've done at least a half dozen solo recitals (faculty recitals and college job audition recitals) that included both tenor and bass. I've done 2 faculty solo recitals that had alto, tenor, and bass.

Like anything, you need to practice. You need to choose rep that fits your circumstances and choose your rep order carefully. You need to move air through each horn the way that horn needs it. You can't move air in an alto the way you move it in a bass; it backs up the plumbing.

I don't use the same rim for everything, but I can see the attraction and benefit of it. I use a Hammond 10ML or 10MXL on tenor and a customized 21BXL on bass. For alto, I do use the same rim but smaller cup. I didn't set out to do that, it's just what sounded the best of the mouthpieces I have. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course.

[hyperbolica]

I wasn't able to switch between small bore mouthpieces and bass mouthpieces easily until I started using larger diameter rims for tenor. I had a hard time even switching between 6.5al and 5G.

Now that all my tenors use DE 104 rims, I can switch easily to bass where I play a 1 1/4g. I don't use the same rim on bass as on tenor, but all my tenors use the same rim (from 500 bore to 547).

Now I can switch from one tune to the other when I play quartet. I'm usually playing bass, but now and then I have lead on a tune, and pull out a smaller tenor. It's easy enough to do as long as I've practiced high notes on small tenor. I can usually play bass without too much practice, maybe a little warmup, but tenor needs practice.

Just because guys like Morrison exist doesn't mean everybody can do that kind of thing. He's an amazing outlier, not an indication of what everybody can achieve. It's unfair to the rest of us to look at guys like him as the norm.

It took me years to figure out how to double. I played the same instrument (88h) exclusively from 6th grade to after college (~10 years). It took a long time to make something else work. I'm sure we have a range of experience here from me to people who just intuitively pick up a french horn or a tuba and make it all work.

Trent Hamilton is a pretty mediocre player at best, but he plays slide, valves, big mouthpiece, small mouthpiece, just about anything. He doesn't get a tremendous sound on any single instrument, but he has pretty good facility on just about anything. From tuba to piccolo trumpet. I just think there's a wide range of possible skill levels, and just because one person does something amazing doesn't mean we all can.

[flotrb]

As a professional low brass doubler for 50+ years, I have had my share of "experiences" with doubling issues. My college professor said to me: "Find a mouthpiece that works for you on that horn...then wield it into the leadpipe." Being a low brass doubler for many B'dway shows through the years, I have found that the "right tool" for the job...is what the part says it is! Playing a typical walking bass trombone passage for 12 meas....2 meas. rest, put bass trb down, pick up tenor and play lead over saxes, starting on "G" above middle "C" and going up to "D". I have found that my King SS 3B w/VB 6½AL mpc, Bach Soloist 210 w/VB 4G, and King Duo Gravis SS w/VB MtVernon 1½G, Jin Bao Eb tuba w/Wick 3L give me the "typical B'way" sounds for each particular style that is required in the part.

I agree with the concept of your embouchure being formed before the rim gets there, because there is very little time, in 2 meas., as your tenor comes flying toward your chops at Mach 1, to think about anything other than "nailing" that trombone lead line, 2 meas. after that "a la Roberts" bass bone phrase you just laid down. Sometimes there are five or more horn changes in 1 chart. I just finished Disney's "Aladdin", tenor trb: E below the staff to Bb above middle C, bass trb: pedal F# to Gb above middle C. Now that, is a real trombone dance. Oh, yeah, what about "The Lion King" doubles are...bass trb pedals drive The Stampede and tuba (with a pedal C "fart" at the end of Hakuna Matata!)