TromboneChat

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:13 pm It is a misconception that bigger mouthpieces make a bigger sound....
Chris

Thats so true! I recently listen Chris playing my 70h with 1.5 mouthpiece. My god he created a powerful, rich big sound I nearly couldn't believe it. Of course he is a professional but still, we have lot to learn from guys like him. Low and high, soft and delicate, big volume, it would definitely fit in any orchestra, band or setting. On a 70h!!

What I dont understand is why so many choose sizes close to contrabass mouthpiece? It can't sound right? Maybe for some few pro that work hard at it but for most of us mortal, I doubt it?

Everyone can make a 1.5 size work if they have a positive relaxed attitude and work at it. There is no shortcut. And sounding big or play low is no matter practice with right attitude. Sounding big is not the right word either, rich and with nuances, intonation and control is the clue.

Leif

Two things Leif..... the 'bigger is better ' school of bass trombone playing... if you can possibly play bigger, do it.... just do it.
Second, with the move toward ultra large mouthpieces, people are forgetting how to make an orchestral sound on the old equipment... they try a 1 1/2G and find it feels tight and sounds harsh, so they go back to big.
A whole way of playing is in danger of being lost in some places. Not in the UK, but in some places.

Chris

If playing something large made one immortal, I suspect they would be more popular than they presently are

did you say immoral??

Damn autocorrect....

The major American orchestras have a very different expectation of sound and especially volume. It's a different situation and you can't really say that those players should be using smaller equipment - it just doesn't work.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:35 am Damn autocorrect....

The major American orchestras have a very different expectation of sound and especially volume. It's a different situation and you can't really say that those players should be using smaller equipment - it just doesn't work.

Here I simply have to disagree Doug. If you are telling me that American orchestras play louder than those in other places around the world,I really don't buy it. I've listened to, and played in London orchestras and listened to American orchestras and there is not such a difference to my ears. I return to my assertion that in some places, players have lost that connection with the symphonic blowing technique needed to use smaller equipment.... it's gone.
Is that a loss ? That's up to the listener.... and the player.

Chris

Before reading the last couple of posts, I was thinking about what would one’s chances be of advancing in an orchestral audition if one were to play using anything smaller than a Schilke 60. The new local orch guy has a massive sound that would be a tough act to follow.

One of my recent students won the bass trombone job in the Halle orchestra on a 2G,with another reaching the last three ...on a 2G....
I never told them to use those pieces... their choice.
Over here we don't look at player's mouthpieces, we listen to their sounds.

Chris

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:43 pm Before reading the last couple of posts, I was thinking about what would one’s chances be of advancing in an orchestral audition if one were to play using anything smaller than a Schilke 60. The new local orch guy has a massive sound that would be a tough act to follow.

In the US? I'm not sure. I do know a very good player that makes quite a good sound on a 1.5G that did a trial year in a regional orchestra. Otherwise, I don't know anyone recently.

Didn't James Markey win the NYPO bass job on a 1 1/2G... whatever he went on to use....

Chris

But I belive there is many bass players in the US that dont play in the big orchestras? Anyway after listen Chris in that car parking house I know what loud is. We can be glad that house is still standing Chris
I also listen Bob Hughes recording on the Alph symphony and thats a 2g I think. Its on iTunes

Anyway, everyone seems to play 60 sizes and bigger. Even young and beginners? Its a bit strange for my ears. I dont know what Norwegians do because I dont see so many of them. After teaching for soon 35 years I had some young bass players that has studied further after leaving after they are 17-18 years old. I started all of them on 1.5 and all of them still play the same size today. What the others do around I dont know.

Well, anyway Im glad I found back to the 1.5. I also thought for a long time that bigger mouthpiece is bigger sound....it isn't. Its all about the player.

Leif

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:25 pm Didn't James Markey win the NYPO bass job on a 1 1/2G... whatever he went on to use....

Chris

I am not sure what he played on to win NYPO. He did spend a short time right after on a mouthpiece of his design based on a G&W Don Harwood that was slightly larger in the throat. Currently, he is playing on Griego Gerry Pagano.

Hi -

Not a bass trombonist here, but I'm pretty sure that in an interview that I read w/Jim Markey, he said that he switched to a Schilke 60 for his Bass work when he decided that he wanted to take the NYP Bass audition. In the same article, he said that his early work on the Bass was played on a custom Greg Black w/a 1.5 cup and an Alessi 3 rim (to match his Tenor mpc.). He eventually started to design his own mouthpieces with a couple of different makers once he was a full-time Bass Trombonist. He has played all ends of the spectrum, and sounds great on all of them.

Jim Scott

I've been using my Faxx 1.5G for about a year now. I'd keep on using it but I think I need something that's gold plated and has a deeper cup. I'm starting to feel a little restricted by it when I go below the staff but maybe I just need a gold plated 1.5G. *shrug*

Conrad, Im just a teacher for young kids but I have some advices that might help. (or might not )
First, dont try to force it in the low register, avoid any tension. Warm up relaxed and play melodies you know in the low register. Just try to make it sound beautiful and relaxed. It takes time and practice no matter mouthpiece, just dont force anything.

The faxx 1.5 is great. Gold or silver doesn't matter that much. Some like gold some like silver plate. It doesn't change the character of the mouthpiece but it change how it feels on the lips. Gold is more slippery on lips I think?

Anyway, good luck with further playing and practice.
Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:52 am Conrad, Im just a teacher for young kids but I have some advices that might help. (or might not )
First, dont try to force it in the low register, avoid any tension. Warm up relaxed and play melodies you know in the low register. Just try to make it sound beautiful and relaxed. It takes time and practice no matter mouthpiece, just dont force anything.

The faxx 1.5 is great. Gold or silver doesn't matter that much. Some like gold some like silver plate. It doesn't change the character of the mouthpiece but it change how it feels on the lips. Gold is more slippery on lips I think?

Anyway, good luck with further playing and practice.
Leif

Being reminded to relax is always a good thing imo. One of the reasons I got back into playing trombone was to help me deal with my anxiety. It also doesn't help that often when I play with an ensemble I usually don't have the chance to warm up properly, that's an issue of time that I can't control unfortunately.

The gold plating is just something I've noticed is more comfortable for me. I usually have a beard and even when I shave my skin is rather sensitive to friction (shaving is hard enough). Don't think it's a nickle sensitivity though. I picked up a DW heritage 1AL from a friend that was pretty inexpensive but that turned out to be a bit larger than what I need so I've moved back to my Faxx.

Just played a Big Band rehearsal. All newer stuff. Bass parts went to pedal Ab LOUD. Used my Marcinkiewicz GR and it worked great. Normally I use my Doug Elliott setup, but I was feeling a little tired. Guess that happens when you attain Geezerdom.

.

I did fall asleep in the car. Driving in hot weather with a balky air conditioner. Ran off the road, rolled over 3 times, and totaled the car. Had 4 broken ribs and some scrapes. Wife was so impressed with the Volvo S80 that she replaced it with another one.

Gotta agree with Bruce – the Marcinkiewicz "Geo Roberts" mouthpiece (which doesn't feel like a Bach 1½G to me) – is my mouthpiece of choice for Big Band music on my single-valve bass trombone. I have no idea whether George Roberts ever used this mouthpiece (some who knew him are skeptical), but I like to think he would have approved of it.

Glad you survived your rollover accident, Bruce. Drive safely!

George did use it but he spent his latter years using Ziggies version but all his GR mouthpieces were made to the same specification. Granted of course as we all know there is a variation between different machines and process that can produce different sounds but the aim and the measurements were always the same whoever made the GR mouthpiece. Please note though the GR is NOT a 1.5 it is ever so slightly bigger, its more like a Bach 1.5GM, thats why the lower notes slip out better! ... Doug

I play a Marc GR most of the time in our big band and I like it very much on my single trigger Yamaha bass. Occasionally I use the Marc 3 which has the same rim dimensions-- when the charts are more like a 4th tenor part. As I mentioned above in this thread, the switch works pretty seamlessly for me given the identical rim.

BTW, what other manufacturers did a GR model? Might be helpful to know some time and give others an opportunity to find a mp with those dimensions.

DougHulme wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:25 pm Please note though the GR is NOT a 1.5 it is ever so slightly bigger, its more like a Bach 1.5GM, thats why the lower notes slip out better! ... Doug

Interesting, Doug. I have a Bach 1½GM, but find that, with its much larger throat (~8.05mm) it's an air hog that is difficult (for me) to play. The throat of my Bach 1½G is only 7.00mm; my Marcinkiewicz "Geo Roberts" is 7.04mm. But the GR cup I.D. is indeed just a bit larger than either Bach (whose cups seem to be identical), and just a bit deeper / more conical than either 1½G.

In any case, I'll stick with George's design – it works for me!

I recently acquired a Kanstul GR that I like. It seems to hit the Goldilocks point. Decent high/low registers, articulate.

You are right, the GR is not a 1.5GM, I should have of said more like a GM than an ordinary 1.5. George of course played an ordinary 1.5 for years and years and his own GR came from modifications to a straight 1.5. There is still a slight trade off with the upper register but better than you would expect. Whichever way you look at it the GR is 'almost' a 1.5. I found the GR better than a GM when I changed (George himself gave me a Kanstul GR he had on him at the ITF in New Orleans) but there is still something special about the Bach 1.5 and I agree with most of what Chris has said about its use and the changing sound we are getting from the bigger equipment... just call me old fashioned but I cant alter the sound in my head!

Finally joining the club again. I started off on a 1.5G Megatone when I first switched to bass my freshman year of high school. I’m looking forward to learning this mouthpiece again as I had a few Mt.V 1.5G throughout the years. Just picked it up this afternoon.

The 'Holy Grail' of 'The Club'! ... They dont all play the same though.

JohntheTheologan - BTW, what other manufacturers did a GR model? Might be helpful to know some time and give others an opportunity to find a mp with those dimensions.

I'm no authority and I'm only going on what George told me in a single conversation on the subject. It might feel like everyone made mouthpieces for him but thats not true. Burt Herrek made the original for him or should I say with him and the Bach 1.5 was the model they modified to come up with his own piece. Conn made his mouthpiece for quite a while (probably until he split from them?) then the unhappy alliance with Marcinkiewicz, I say unhappy because George gave them all the details and signed an agreement with them but despite it going into production with his name on it and in some numbers they never paid him anything. I dont know the business details but I do know it made George very unhappy. Then of course Ziggy Kanstul came along and made (as he always did with whatever he was involved in) a superb job of producing Georges mouthpieces. The gold plating Ziggy did at the factory was amongst the best I have ever had done and I'd say to anyone who wants to get a GR mouthpiece to search for a Kanstul version. There are probably still a few new ones floating around the shops at the moment too.

So to sum up - there were only 4 people who made GR mouthpieces over the years but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (I often am!)... Doug

Wasn’t there a line of mpcs labeled SO, MV etc associated with GR? Bill R played one - the SO, I think - up until recently.

I found this 2016 post from L Savio:

“His mouthpieces were copied by a small shop in L.A. in probably the 1980's.. they were stamped 'George Roberts' and marked NY, MV, SE, CE and SO... no prizes for working out what the letters stand for. George told me that he was ripped off by the copyist and never saw a cent for the designs."

I’d be interested in an SO if anyone was inclined to part with theirs.

1.5G

“An elegant weapon, for a more civilised age”

Andrew

Bach 5B...

“His mouthpieces were copied by a small shop in L.A. in probably the 1980's.. they were stamped 'George Roberts' and marked NY, MV, SE, CE and SO... no prizes for working out what the letters stand for. George told me that he was ripped off by the copyist and never saw a cent for the designs."

Maybe thats who he was upset with then and not Marcinkiewicz, it was a long time ago now I'm struggling to remember exactly what he said. I'll stop posting about this until those who know better than me chime in.

Doug

Since Marcinkiewicz still makes the GR, but labels it as a 1 1/2 G if I"m correct, I'm wondering if other manufacturers might make a GR under a different designation as Marc does.

Would be interesting if anyone knows how many variations of this mp there are under different names since many of us find it as the optimum bass bone mp, especially for big band.

JohntheTheologian wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:37 am Since Marcinkiewicz still makes the GR, but labels it as a 1 1/2 G if I"m correct, I'm wondering if other manufacturers might make a GR under a different designation as Marc does.

They may be two different animals. It's my understanding (though I have no personal information to verify) that the Marcinckiewicz "Geo Roberts" is very much like their 1½G (similar cup I.D. and throat), but with a somewhat deeper cup. (And of course the Marcs are much lighter than the heavier-blank Bachs.) My old Marc GR does indeed have a slightly larger, deeper cup than my Bach 1½G.

I believe that someone with inside knowledge posted on an earlier thread that the Marc 1 1/2 G was bigger than the Bach counterpart with the same number and that the Marc 1 1/2 was made on the same program as the old GR.

Someone would have to confirm that.

@fossil In some respects the reverse is true for professionals vs. amateur players. If I try new kit and blat some notes, it's embarrassing but it's not going to affect my income, so I can have a bit of fun doing crazy things.

I would say that for bass trombones, the bigger change has come in the writing, rather than the kit. There's a whole new sound world since the days of George Roberts which hasn't touched the tenors in the same way (although they are louder). Nowadays students feel they need a contra, in our day no-one had ever seen one.

I'm very happy to have retreated from the arms race in both horns and mouthpieces.

DougHulme wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:02 am Bach 5B...

“His mouthpieces were copied by a small shop in L.A. in probably the 1980's.. they were stamped 'George Roberts' and marked NY, MV, SE, CE and SO... no prizes for working out what the letters stand for. George told me that he was ripped off by the copyist and never saw a cent for the designs."

Maybe thats who he was upset with then and not Marcinkiewicz, it was a long time ago now I'm struggling to remember exactly what he said. I'll stop posting about this until those who know better than me chime in.

Doug

It was me that had the conversation with George. It was the small machine shop that ripped him off not Marcinkiewicz. He was a very mild and good mannered man but this business still upset him after perhaps thirty years.
The mouthpieces themselves were well made and played very well.

Chris

Thanks Chris... I had a similar conversation with him back in 2005 and couldnt remember exactly who he was upset by - it suddenly dawned on me when I pushed the submit button where I mentioned Marcinkiewicz that I really shouldnt have said that - my memory was too hazy. As you say he was the most mild and good mannered of men but I would describe him as hurt over this episode, great shame. With profuse apologies to Marcinkiewicz and a promise to engage brain before typing in future! Kindest... Doug

sf105 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:59 pm I would say that for bass trombones, the bigger change has come in the writing, rather than the kit. There's a whole new sound world since the days of George Roberts which hasn't touched the tenors in the same way (although they are louder). Nowadays students feel they need a contra, in our day no-one had ever seen one.

I'm very happy to have retreated from the arms race in both horns and mouthpieces.

I would concur on most counts, Steve.

I think for tenors that they've tried to increase the weight of sound they produce without changing the mouthpiece. Most guys I know are happy with a 5G size. Those that double on bass trombone won't go any larger than a 1.5G.

Pure bass trombonists, on the other hand, are different creatures. Those pros I know in the business are virtually all on a 2G size. It is a size that works well as a workhorse for orchestral bass trombone repertoire, which can employ a very wide range, but usually sits in or above the bass staff. Those in big bands and brass bands have tended to go for rather large setups, simply because they want easy access to loud dynamics and low notes without the requisite amount of effort on a small mouthpiece.

I agree with Chris. I reckon that there's a whole generation - maybe even more - who have lost the art of producing regular bass trombone sounds on regular sized equipment. Crikey, there are those that are even asking about using contrabass trombone size mouthpieces in a B flat bass trombone!

I'm happy with where I'm at. I have the trombone and the mouthpiece that suits me best after years of trying to get to this point and I'm not changing. If an Elkhart Conn 62H and a Mount Vernon 2G worked for Bob Hughes, I'll make them work for me, thanks very much.

Just to bring this thread a little more back on topic, to my ear there is a sort of critical mass point on bass trombones in relation to mouthpiece size.

Once you go over the 1. 1/2G mark something fundamentally changes in the sound and you get ever increasing degrees of what I call 'The Polo Mint Effect' ( Life Savers in the U.S.??)

By this I mean as the sounds spreads outwards a hole develops in the centre or core if you like and it just gets bigger and bigger as the mouthpieces gets larger and larger.

I don't buy the volume argument either I'm afraid as I've heard guys playing 2G's and 1 1/2G's who could knock a house down it's all about knowing how to do it which as Fossil said is an art that is becoming lost in the US maybe?
A focused, centered sound travels much further at a lower volume than a spread hollow one blowing ten shades of shite of it any day.

I can however understand that the writing for bass trombone is much more demanding than the olden days but it is doable with practice and understanding.

Just my two cents worth.

BellEnd

“His mouthpieces were copied by a small shop in L.A. in probably the 1980's.. they were stamped 'George Roberts' and marked NY, MV, SE, CE and SO... no prizes for working out what the letters stand for. George told me that he was ripped off by the copyist and never saw a cent for the designs."

I’d be interested in an SO if anyone was inclined to part with theirs.

I’ll be the one who gets the booby prize. What do they mean?

NY = New York
MV = Mt. Vernon
SE = ?
CE = ?
SO = ?

I have a CE. I swear I was told what it meant once...

SO is "Slightly Oversized..."

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:57 am I have a CE. I swear I was told what it meant once...

From an old post from C Stearn/Blast/Fossil:

The George Roberts mouthpieces.... copies of Georges favourite mouthpieces... gems... George was bitter though.. he told me that he never got any of the money promised on the deal.
There was a NY, MV, CE,SE and SO.
The theory is that meant, New York, Mount Vernon, Commercial Elkhart, Symphony Elkhart, Symphony Oversize.

There it is!

Mine is definitely lighter in sound. It matches a Conn 7X very well, makes me feel very GR. Pretty darn hard to play and very uncomfortable rim, though.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:12 pm Mine is definitely lighter in sound. It matches a Conn 7X very well, makes me feel very GR. Pretty darn hard to play and very uncomfortable rim, though.

Well now you just have me interested.

Oh yeah. You need to come over anyway!

Well, finally played a Mt. Vernon 1.5G.

The magic is real! What a great mouthpiece. It's by far the most sound from a 1.5 that I've used. I do have some good ones, including a George Roberts Replica CE mouthpiece, and none of them have the 1. Sound 2. Ease 3. Low register that this one does. I have also played the Symingtons, but not for a while.

I can see why many players would love to have something like this for a main piece.

As for myself, I like it, but I wouldn't want it for my full time mouthpiece. The sound, though it is very good (a great color to the midrange especially), is still narrower than I would prefer. The rim is obviously a lot smaller than I use, and even after half an hour felt pretty restrictive. Finally, the note fronts, though very clear, lack the weight I get from my Greg Black.

I just got a new Schilke/Reichenbach piece today. I played it at a brass band rehearsal tonight. It definitely feels bigger than a 1 1/2G but not a lot. I posted in the thread about the new piece elsewhere on the forum. I like it and am going to give it a try on the next concert series.