TromboneChat

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:34 pm Everyone wish Bruce good luck in PBDY tomorrow, that he not transmit to any of the 90 yr olds.

Wish I were there, yada yada yada...

I won't be there either. No car. Dangerous for me to drive -- especially for everybody else on the road. I told Danny to find someone else.

For those who don't know, the Peabody (MA) Senior Center has a Jazz Band that plays a dance every Thursday AM. They've been off since the Plague. Baileyman and I are 2/3 of the trombone section. I guess it's back on, although I haven't been notified -- not that it matters.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:26 pm

On a different note, I have had the vaccine and am not magnetic. I especially want to know how these magnetic people can attract brass or aluminum keys

There's a good discussion on Metabunk.

A magnet will stick to the injection site right after a shot.

And also before the shot.

Unless you wash off the skin oil, then neither happens.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:38 am

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:16 am Just research & Think for yourself. How hard is that? Stop Kvetching and do a little digging.

Actually, please don't. You aren't very good at the whole research thing. Ask for help from a reputable research librarian.

And yes, do take sources from conventional media... they aren't lying to you the way you think they are.

Cheers,
Andy

You're telling people to just listen to the fake news, not think for themselves, and not to research for themselves? Nobody is here telling anyone what to think. I posted the links i posted, to provide absolutely objective proof of my point, since there is a real lack of any critical information being shared here. The media, big tech, and the "experts" who are actually just shills for Big Pharma, suppressed that there are effective treatments, - the people you trust suppressed therapeutics that could have saved many people, why doesn't that bother you? I posted the information, and then you people attack me, you know what, as the mountain of "conspiracy theories" are continuously proven to be "fact", you may need to re-evaluate this idea of research & critical thinking. If you want to take the experimental MRNA vaccine for a virus with effective therapeutic cures, with a survival rate of 99.9% ... go for it, are you really that trusting of the people telling you its safe?

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 am

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:38 am
Actually, please don't. You aren't very good at the whole research thing. Ask for help from a reputable research librarian.

And yes, do take sources from conventional media... they aren't lying to you the way you think they are.

Cheers,
Andy

You're telling people to just listen to the fake news, not think for themselves, and not to research for themselves? Nobody is here telling anyone what to think. I posted the links i posted, to provide absolutely objective proof of my point, since there is a real lack of any critical information being shared here. The media, big tech, and the "experts" who are actually just shills for Big Pharma, suppressed that there are effective treatments, - the people you trust suppressed therapeutics that could have saved many people, why doesn't that bother you? I posted the information, and then you people attack me, you know what, as the mountain of "conspiracy theories" are continuously proven to be "fact", you may need to re-evaluate this idea of research & critical thinking. If you want to take the experimental MRNA vaccine for a virus with effective therapeutic cures, with a survival rate of 99.9% ... go for it, are you really that trusting of the people telling you its safe?

Ummmmmmmmm

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 am

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:38 am
Actually, please don't. You aren't very good at the whole research thing. Ask for help from a reputable research librarian.

And yes, do take sources from conventional media... they aren't lying to you the way you think they are.

Cheers,
Andy

You're telling people to just listen to the fake news, not think for themselves, and not to research for themselves? Nobody is here telling anyone what to think. I posted the links i posted, to provide absolutely objective proof of my point, since there is a real lack of any critical information being shared here. The media, big tech, and the "experts" who are actually just shills for Big Pharma, suppressed that there are effective treatments, - the people you trust suppressed therapeutics that could have saved many people, why doesn't that bother you? I posted the information, and then you people attack me, you know what, as the mountain of "conspiracy theories" are continuously proven to be "fact", you may need to re-evaluate this idea of research & critical thinking. If you want to take the experimental MRNA vaccine for a virus with effective therapeutic cures, with a survival rate of 99.9% ... go for it, are you really that trusting of the people telling you its safe?

Ohferfooksakes trombonevan: You haven't provided ANY proof, YOU haven't done any REAL research, you don't even KNOW what real science and research looks like. You are just regurgitating junk that you FOUND (with Google's help) that kinda, sorta, supports what YOU want to believe is true....that the whole world has been fooled EXCEPT you and a minority of other folks that haven't yet learned how to navigate the WWW for FACTUAL, SCIENCE-BASED information.

There is a Central American saying that goes along the line of "If one person tells you you're drunk, and you feel fine, ignore him. If ten people tell you you're drunk, go and have a lie down".

-Joe

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 am You're telling people to just listen to the fake news, not think for themselves, and not to research for themselves?

In general, yes. You would be better informed if you stopped whatever whack-a-doodle media diet you have and just read a major city newspaper daily. The main stream media is NOT fake news. Y'all have added that "fake" part just to note anything you don't like. That isn't how it works.

Nobody is here telling anyone what to think. I posted the links i posted, to provide absolutely objective proof of my point, since there is a real lack of any critical information being shared here. The media, big tech, and the "experts" who are actually just shills for Big Pharma, suppressed that there are effective treatments, - the people you trust suppressed therapeutics that could have saved many people, why doesn't that bother you? I posted the information, and then you people attack me, you know what, as the mountain of "conspiracy theories" are continuously proven to be "fact", you may need to re-evaluate this idea of research & critical thinking.

That didn't happen. There is no mountain of these theories that are being proven as fact. Not going to waste any more of my time on that. You aren't thinking critically, you are following blindly some folks that are playing on your fears.

If you want to take the experimental MRNA vaccine for a virus with effective therapeutic cures, with a survival rate of 99.9% ... go for it, are you really that trusting of the people telling you its safe?

If you insist, go ahead and pick a vaccine that you think is the gold standard for review and study. Maybe Polio, with the infamous headlines and 4 word announcement? (Safe, effective, and potent.) Compare the amount of data available at that time for that with the amount available for any of the current mRNA vaccines. Y'all seem to get hung up on the mRNA part, I think you should examine why that is... it is a pretty clear tell that you are getting some bad info from terrible sources.

Cheers,
Andy

Uh, whatever, my sources are the actual documents such NIH journals Fauci's emails, first hand accounts from Dr. Immanuel, Zelenko others that have used HCQ to great success. It's sad that you have to attack me, when you could take a little bit of time, and do some research, but instead you attack the people like me putting this info out there. This is supposed to be a forum, after all. So now you get to decide what is real and isn't? Just because its your opinion? You may just be the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Who are any of you people to tell me I haven't done my research? I'm in fact not telling anyone what to think, or do. Critical thinkers & free thinkers ie. people who make their own decisions and formulate their beliefs by assimilating FACTS those people all ready know why I'm saying what I'm saying. Fine, take the vaccine, Natural selection probably needs to run its course.

Former President Trump put himself on Hydroxychloroquine and it didn't help him avoid COVID.

Be careful about e-mails and pronouncements. In February 2020 we didn't know much and we learned a lot as the year wore on. You may see some pronouncements from CDC that in light of today's knowledge seem a bit odd. In the beginning there was a severe lack of PPE and CDC was trying to husband it for First Responders. Now that PPE is pretty available and everybody can get it. In the beginning we didn't understand how much social distancing was necessary to prevent transfer. We also didn't understand the difference between droplets and mists. We didn't understand the kinetics of transfer (you probably won't get COVID just from passing near an infected person -- you need some contact time for the disease to be passed on).

We developed the mRNA vaccine in record time, but there was a lot of research in the technique for about 10 years on other diseases. It was just a matter of building an mRNA that worked on the SARS-COV-2 virus.

One important area of research is how to treat the disease once somebody falls victim. This has not been as successful as yet.

There is a strong tendency to cherry pick the bits of information that support your position rather than trying to discern the real situation.

This is a plague. It's not as bad as the Black Death, but then again our hygiene and medicine are better than they were in 1350.

See that's the thing, They have known since atleast 2005 that Coronaviruses could be treated using HCQ,even provided the sauce. There's many damning emails, but they show he knowingly misled the American public.

Another thing I do not understand is the common and authoritative use "fully vaccinated" as if it has meaning. Try as I can, the research seems to be really thin as to the effect of additional doses. Just yesterday one showed up from India re the AZ finding maybe a only few percent improvement with a second dose. But even that seems unconvincing. For instance, suppose what happens on vaccination is that the body begins to accumulate immune response so that the total accumulates over time. If a second dose is administered during the ramp-up, the subsequent improvement may be indistinguishable from the continued ramp from the initial dose. Meanwhile, our language assumes near certainty on the effect of double doses. It could be that the double dose protocol, having passed over from previous vaccine practice without testing, is merely pro forma, and to the extent the double routine has at times created shortage, unfortunate.

It appears to me to be rather probable that good testing will show that one vax will do for all these various drugs.

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:56 am See that's the thing, They have known since atleast 2005 that Coronaviruses could be treated using HCQ,even provided the sauce. There's many damning emails, but they show he knowingly misled the American public.

I think you are confusing HCQ with Ivermectin. I've seen small studies that show Ivermectin to be effective as a preventative and as a curative for COVID. But there don't seem to be the larger studies needed for FDA certification. Ivermectin is in a lot of veterinary medicines used for control of heartworm and has been confirmed safe for human use, although as a treatment for parasites.

Note that Ivermectin is pretty cheap and there isn't a large return for Big Pharma so they probably aren't interested in doing any testing.

I think I inadvertently started all of this drama when I posted that I was scheduled for my 2nd shot, as many others had done before. I had the 2nd dose yesterday (AstraZeneca). No side effects - I'm not magnetic, although I think my iPhone 5 is now getting 5G!

I'm not going to try to convince the Q-anon folks of anything - they need help that's far above my pay grade. The internet is a blessing and a curse, with all kinds of information put out there with little guidance as to what "facts" support it. We see examples of this in the usual topics that we address here, but that's just about how to play the trombone. This topic is life and death, so "alternative facts" are actually dangerous.

I am happy to be fully vaccinated. I did research on what was available to me, and am comfortable with my choices. I got the shots partially for me - glad to feel more protected. My other reason is respect and care for the people in my life - family, friends and colleagues. I have some friends/colleagues at work who have issues with their immune systems due to other health problems that they have overcome. I would never forgive myself if I were to carry covid into the workplace and infect them. If you carry that idea forward, you realize that the person who cuts your hair, the teller at the bank, or your grocery worker deserves the same care from you. Getting vaccinated, along with masks and distancing is all part of protecting them. Hopefully, we will soon be able to move beyond much of that.

Here's to a return (soon!) to a more normal life, including live concerts with actual audiences!

Jim Scott

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:48 am Uh, whatever, my sources are the actual documents such NIH journals Fauci's emails, first hand accounts from Dr. Immanuel, Zelenko others that have used HCQ to great success. It's sad that you have to attack me, when you could take a little bit of time, and do some research, but instead you attack the people like me putting this info out there. This is supposed to be a forum, after all. So now you get to decide what is real and isn't? Just because its your opinion? You may just be the perfect example of what I'm talking about. Who are any of you people to tell me I haven't done my research? I'm in fact not telling anyone what to think, or do. Critical thinkers & free thinkers ie. people who make their own decisions and formulate their beliefs by assimilating FACTS those people all ready know why I'm saying what I'm saying. Fine, take the vaccine, Natural selection probably needs to run its course.

Here is a "first hand" account for you:

I got vaccinated with the mRNA Moderna vax between Jan and Feb, along with most of my colleagues. I just recently did a trip to Korea for a training exercise. International travel right now is a nightmare, and I want to applaud the stringent and excellent job airports are doing to prevent people from getting on a plane if they might be sick.

When we arrived, the base policy in Korea is that you quarantine in a room that you can't leave for 14 days unless you are vaccinated, and you can only leave after you pass a stringent brain scraping PCR test.

We were in line with lots of people, dreading the test (it's unpleasant) and the guy in front of me says "this test doesn't work -- I kept getting delayed from coming here to Korea because I kept testing positive. Look, I'm here now, and no vaccine, so obviously those were all just false positives" I looked at my friends, and we all had raised eyebrows. It might have been the dumbest statement I've ever heard in my life.

Fast forward to the next day, we get our results in the quarantine, and everyone with the vaccine was negative. Everyone. We left quarantine and put that place behind us. No idea what the results were for the unvaccinated people, but that base has an effective procedure in place to keep them in quarantine until they test negative.

I took 8 covid PCR tests over the course of a month, and they were all negative. The unvaccinated guy complained about mixed results on the tests and was talking about HCQ. He was 19, and an idiot. No wonder you get mixed results, hoss, you keep getting covid and your young body keeps fighting it off...

Also, LOL the magnetic microchip lies. Those people must be blind or [insert mean comment here] -- there is no way a microchip large enough to be useful or affect a magnet can go through that microscopic needle. Have you seen the gauge on microchipping needle at a vet clinic? Check it out:



If you were getting vaccinated with a needle that big, no wonder you are now magnetic and having heart issues and clots -- they injected microchip into your bloodstream!!

Another thing I don't understand, that the virus is crashing dramatically when "herd" immunity is not nearly reached. The epidemiologists estimate variously from 2/3 to 80% the necessary vaccination rate to keep replication under one. But the behavior of the virus in the USA would seem to indicate that the herd number is actually much much lower. I suppose there could be an unknown unknown also bringing down the case count, perhaps to reveal itself up later. But if it's natural infection plus vaccine immunity that explains the crash, then it seems herd immunity is well south of 60%.

Someone with better residual math skills than me may want to back out an estimate. I'll leave that as an exercise.

Last year infections dropped as we went from late spring into summer. We had a spike going into late summer to fall. If we avoid that summer spike we may actually have beaten this thing.

baileyman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:08 pm Another thing I don't understand, that the virus is crashing dramatically when "herd" immunity is not nearly reached. The epidemiologists estimate variously from 2/3 to 80% the necessary vaccination rate to keep replication under one. But the behavior of the virus in the USA would seem to indicate that the herd number is actually much much lower. I suppose there could be an unknown unknown also bringing down the case count, perhaps to reveal itself up later. But if it's natural infection plus vaccine immunity that explains the crash, then it seems herd immunity is well south of 60%.

Someone with better residual math skills than me may want to back out an estimate. I'll leave that as an exercise.

1) The calculation for herd immunity threshold is based on total number immunized from any cause - both people who are vaccinated and people who have recovered from infection are counted.
2) It approximately assumes pre-pandemic levels of social mixing, Continuing NPIs (social distancing, masking, etc) still have some impact even if they are only partially observed at this point.
3) Herd immunity threshold is never a strict on/off switch, but more of a probabilistic argument.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:34 am

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:56 am See that's the thing, They have known since atleast 2005 that Coronaviruses could be treated using HCQ,even provided the sauce. There's many damning emails, but they show he knowingly misled the American public.

I think you are confusing HCQ with Ivermectin. I've seen small studies that show Ivermectin to be effective as a preventative and as a curative for COVID. But there don't seem to be the larger studies needed for FDA certification. Ivermectin is in a lot of veterinary medicines used for control of heartworm and has been confirmed safe for human use, although as a treatment for parasites.

Note that Ivermectin is pretty cheap and there isn't a large return for Big Pharma so they probably aren't interested in doing any testing.

You are so dense. How many times do I need to share the journal from the NIH explicitly stating that its an effective treatment.

Just because you're a mod on a trombone forum, doesn't mean you know everything. In fact, the people who do know what I'm talking about, don't spend all their time trying to discredit legit information to protect their infantile understanding of the world because they're afraid to do some research that might conflict with what the shills on corporate multi-national corporate news entities that are only beholden to the narrative that best suites their interests. How you can blame Trump for "propaganda" but ignore the media's complete weaponization against him - ignore the Smith Mundt act, ignore Project Mockingbird & 60 years of happenings, and then tell me I'm mistaking two things I know about 1000x more than you is astounding. Get a clue dude, you're a mod on a trombone forum, not an expert on coronavirus.

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:22 pm ...Get a clue dude, you're a mod on a trombone forum, not an expert on coronavirus.

Somehow I wonder if it doesn't take one to know one.

I did read all the stuff on HCQ. HCQ at best works like a cold tablet to make the symptoms of COVID more endurable. Lab tests to see if HCQ actually killed virus were negative. Except for the group you keep quoting, nobody else seems to think HCQ does anything.

So if you really think HCQ is the answer to all evils, go take it. Look how it helped Donald Trump. (Hint: he got COVID.)

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:22 pm Just because you're a mod on a trombone forum, doesn't mean you know everything. In fact, the people who do know what I'm talking about, don't spend all their time trying to discredit legit information to protect their infantile understanding of the world because they're afraid to do some research that might conflict with what the shills on corporate multi-national corporate news entities that are only beholden to the narrative that best suites their interests. How you can blame Trump for "propaganda" but ignore the media's complete weaponization against him - ignore the Smith Mundt act, ignore Project Mockingbird & 60 years of happenings, and then tell me I'm mistaking two things I know about 1000x more than you is astounding. Get a clue dude, you're a mod on a trombone forum, not an expert on coronavirus.

yikes dude.

This discussion is pointless

I meet people every day who try to save lives.

I can tell you there are no hidden agendas over here from the experts, but nevertheless the conspiracies that has been discussed here are for real and exist all over the world because they exist in the heads of the people who believe in them.

I am no epidemiolog and neither a doctor but I work with them and I have followed just about every press release given by our health department twice a week for the first year.

It is not possible to convince people with ideas that are to far from your own ideas. This is my experience from life. You can not communicate without some sort of common foundation. It can be differences in backgrounds, in personalities, difference in culture, lack of language, lack of trust and lack of knowledge and sources. You can not argue with sick people without wit either, not when they are under affect of their diagnose and not with people under influence of psychedelic drugs either. These are some principles that must be agreed upon and it doesn't matter what side you take, whether you are against vaccinations or pro. It doesn't matter what you fight for. There are some things that need to be to be in place to have the discussion. Without this either you better leave the discussion or there is a war around the corner. You can not communicate with a stone.

In this case if people have different facts then it is pointless to discuss. You have to sort out the facts first. To do that you need to find your sources and you have to make your decisions. Most have neither the ability or the skills to delve into all the different reports that are produced. We have people who have those skills and to me it comes up to I have to trust their knowledge. To read just one report and choose that one is not enough. The scientific methods need to be critically inspected. We have people who do this. They might not have read everything because even their resources are limited. Since time is limited it all has to do with trust. I trust them.

I hope life returns. I have had my first dose and just one dose alone gives a good effect and prevents for hospitalizations. No one have died here that has had one dose after the three weeks it takes to build the immune system. The vaccines are effective.

I believe in the work I'm a part of. Mistakes has been done all over the world and time will tell what we have done wrong, but the virus do exist and the vaccine too and scientists do their best at their abilities to prevent spread. Some groups of people who do not follow and some groups of politicians are the ones who have failed and they can both have hidden agendas. In our country the health department is very open with facts and this might vary a lot in different countries. If politicians tell scientists what results they want then the science becomes political. It is not what has happend over here but it can be what has happened in other countries.

My colleagues certainly have no hidden agendas. They have not the time because they are too occupied with reality and to follow the data. They are very open with information at the press conferences.

/Tom

" So if you really think HCQ is the answer to all evils, go take it. Look how it helped Donald Trump. (Hint: he got COVID.) "

He "got" Covid alright. I think part of issue is that people don't see that there are multiple layers to everything. Some things are for optics & some things are more for tactical reasons. Trump had to "get it" optical & tactical reasons.

The point isn't that HCQ is the "answer to all evils" I just figured some people might prefer to know that it has been long been proven effective and like with everything that goes against the finely constructed media narrative (which is not in your best interest) has been completely censored. I have some, and if I were sick that's what I would use, rather than taking a vaccine that might kill me in 2-3 years, which is a real possibility for all anyone knows. Again, why take something that you don't know the long term affects of, vs. taking something that is safe in the long run & proven effective.

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:25 am I were sick that's what I would use, rather than taking a vaccine that might kill me in 2-3 years, which is a real possibility for all anyone knows. Again, why take something that you don't know the long term affects of, vs. taking something that is safe in the long run & proven effective.

So we're comparing getting sick where we don't know the long term effects of (NOT AFFECTS) to taking a vaccine that we don't know the long term effects of.

Yet we aren't completely without information to compare these two.

We do know that many people who survive COVID do have long term effects. We don't know what happens in 2 to 3 years but the brain fog and other symptoms are certainly lasting more than a year, and we have examples of many illnesses that have serious impacts long after apparent recovery. For example, Lyme disease seems to be able to cause serious cognitive problem years later, and my father-in-law survived polio only to come down with neurological weakness many decades later.

We also have good data on hundreds of different vaccines that don't have long term effects.

So we're comparing something with a predictably fairly high probability of having long term effects with something that has a predictably fairly low probability of having long term effects.

Why would a rational person choose the higher risk over the lower?

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:25 am ... I have some, and if I were sick that's what I would use, rather than taking a vaccine that might kill me in 2-3 years, which is a real possibility for all anyone knows. Again, why take something that you don't know the long term affects of, vs. taking something that is safe in the long run & proven effective.

Evan,,,

This comment is not for you, you have made your decisions.

For others, this is categorically untrue. It is not a "real possibility". This isn't a thing. C'mon.

Cheers,
Andy

I'm going to lock this for now, while we decide whether TC wishes to play host to (mis)information with potentially health-threatening consequences.