TromboneChat

People reporting tromboneVan, being wrong isn't a violation of our TOS. As long as everything stays civil, I don't see any reason why this discussion can't continue.

TromboneVan, I'm pretty busy today, so I don't have much time to personally respond. I will say that I know a lot of people who are particularly in my immediate family who are probably in similar circles as you and many of the things you've mentioned I'm very familiar with. Likewise, you know that particularly on a forum of musicians that basically everyone is going to be against your particular set of beliefs. Therefore, if you believe as you seem to, you would want to be very persuasive, because if you're right, it would be really important that you convince others, right? So even if the burden of proof is not on you, you would still want to present that evidence, otherwise what would be the point in even having a discussion?

So then, with that said, out of all of the claims you have made (such that vaccines are more deadly than COVID, COVID is akin to the flu, etc.) - is there a claim that if you were proven wrong, would actually convince you that there was a very deadly pandemic that occurred?

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:22 pm People reporting tromboneVan, being wrong isn't a violation of our TOS. As long as everything stays civil, I don't see any reason why this discussion can't continue.

Totally agreed. That said, I think TromboneVan has pretty much shot his load. If the PM's he sent me are any indication this will devolve into petty insults pretty quickly. It's tough to fight without a leg to stand on and, evidently, insults are a great way to convince people of your views.

There is a senior citizen driving on the highway. His wife calls him on his cell phone and in a worried voice says, Herman, be careful! I just heard on the radio that there is a madman driving the wrong way on Route 280! Herman says, I know, but there isn't just one, there are hundreds!

Just research & Think for yourself. How hard is that? Stop Kvetching and do a little digging.

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:16 am Just research & Think for yourself. How hard is that? Stop Kvetching and do a little digging.

I did. Hydroxychloriquine has no valid study and just anecdotal data. Just perfect for the previous Administration in the US (bleach cocktail, anyone?). Ivermectin has some small but promising studies that indicate it may help but no decent studies. The vaccines have had major trials with documented and peer reviewed results. Except maybe the Russian and Chinese submissions. Also, COVID messes with your sex life -- it causes ED.

Go ahead and keep drinking the Kool-Aid. If you get COVID and die (or just lose your ability to play trombone) it's all on you. I've had my two doses of Pfizer and am perfectly happy to continue living my life.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:17 am

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:16 am Just research & Think for yourself. How hard is that? Stop Kvetching and do a little digging.

I did. Hydroxychloriquine has no valid study and just anecdotal data. Just perfect for the previous Administration in the US (bleach cocktail, anyone?). Ivermectin has some small but promising studies that indicate it may help but no decent studies. The vaccines have had major trials with documented and peer reviewed results. Except maybe the Russian and Chinese submissions. Also, COVID messes with your sex life -- it causes ED.

Go ahead and keep drinking the Kool-Aid. If you get COVID and die (or just lose your ability to play trombone) it's all on you. I've had my two doses of Pfizer and am perfectly happy to continue living my life.

Did you google that, and think you wouldn't get a result that was filtered by the same powers trying to suppress the truth? You've got a long way to understanding the War we are currently fighting. Actually, you're completely wrong about HCQ and I already shared the information, which you clearly didn't bother reading, proving that Fauci knew HCQ worked, but hid that. As stated earlier, there is a coordinated campaign against the doctors who treated HUNDREDS of patients effectively with Ivermectin and HCQ. Your opinion does not matter to me, the facts do! Thinking for yourself means doing your own objective research not just being a brainwashed indoctrinated sheep that believes only what talking heads from the CDC tell you is "safe". My response to this thread was specifically about the fact that people are excited to take a vaccine, to be "given the freedom" to get back to playing gigs. You folks gave away your right to breathe fresh air, because some idiots on TV told you to , so it's a little difficult to reason with people who lack any common sense, logic, or the ability to think for themselves. Your rights & freedoms are not granted by men, they are granted to you by God. You can ask for permission to exercise your rights, the rest of us will get on with our lives and play music if we want to and gather, and patriots would never ask to see your "vaccination card" because while many idiots out there don't realize it, the Law as it stands, protects you from having to disclose your medical information. As I stated at the beginning of this, It is against the Nuremberg Code to coerce people into taking vaccines. Everything I stated is backed up with the links I shared earlier. You should all be ashamed for being the very spreaders of fake news and disinformation that you are projecting on me. Nobody here has done their research. Read those Fauci emails, or BTFO.

I think Bruce’s advice is sound. Get your shots. The advantages far outweigh the risks

If you don’t want to, well ok. Although Covid passports in some form or another are likely.

So, Van, any research other than yours is bogus? I must live in your bubble? Sorry. 12 years of scientific schooling has taught me otherwise. I look at a lot of different sites and I take them all with a grain of salt (some with a whole shaker).

I've looked at the same sites and come to a different conclusion than you.

This disease is NOT like conventional Flu. The death toll is orders of magnitude higher. The rate of debilitation is orders of magnitude higher. It's infected the entire planet. It's not an isolated disease like Ebola was. We need drastic action to get it under control. I don't want to see a 3 year epidemic like 1918. If we can cut this thing off in 1 year, I'm part of that. And doing nothing will not be part of the solution.

I also don't care if it was leaked from a virus lab or if it jumped to people from Bat Stew. Fact is, it's here and we have to fight it. We can decide on blame (if it's even worth considering) after the plague passes.

Appellate judge rules against Alachua County mask mandate

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/ ... 659797002/

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:00 pm Appellate judge rules against Alachua County mask mandate

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/ ... 659797002/

Note that this decision had nothing to do with the validity of using masks to control the virus -- it was a civil rights decision. The nursery owner did not want to wear a mask and considered the mandate to be obtrusive.

The ruling was in Florida, a hotbed of anti COVID control. The judge issuing the ruling was appointed by Governor DeSantis and was known to be against efforts to control COVID. DeSantis is actively trying to eliminate all mask mandates and make the State go back to what it was like in 2019, thinking that if you ignore the virus it will go away.

This one took a whole shaker of salt. And two tries to get to read.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:24 pm

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:00 pm Appellate judge rules against Alachua County mask mandate

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/ ... 659797002/

"The ruling was in Florida, a hotbed of anti COVID control."

- And Florida is in the lowest 10 states as far as "covid numbers".

Good, unconstitutional.

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:01 pm - And Florida is in the lowest 10 states as far as "covid numbers".

Good, unconstitutional.

Florida: 67.3 cases per 100K population over last 7 days. 3rd highest in US.

New Hampshire: 14.7 cases per 100K population over last 7 days. 3rd lowest in US. And we have a mask mandate until Tuesday.

You are much safer here with me in New Hampshire than in Florida.

Our biggest single variant is the UK (Kent) but the new Indian is making a run up. Most of the US has mostly UK.

New Hampshire seems to have it's own problems.

"Students attending a high school prom in New Hampshire were labeled with a number on their hands to show if they are vaccinated or unvaccinated against the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, according to reports."

Didn't the Nazis do that?

patrickosmith wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:35 pm New Hampshire seems to have it's own problems.

"Students attending a high school prom in New Hampshire were labeled with a number on their hands to show if they are vaccinated or unvaccinated against the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, according to reports."

Didn't the Nazis do that?

Get out.

patrickosmith wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:35 pm New Hampshire seems to have it's own problems.

"Students attending a high school prom in New Hampshire were labeled with a number on their hands to show if they are vaccinated or unvaccinated against the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, according to reports."

Didn't the Nazis do that?

Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.

patrickosmith wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:35 pm New Hampshire seems to have it's own problems.

"Students attending a high school prom in New Hampshire were labeled with a number on their hands to show if they are vaccinated or unvaccinated against the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, according to reports."

Didn't the Nazis do that?

Where did you read that report?

They certainly didn't do that for the Plaistow School District, where I know two teachers and a parent of a High Schooler.

Also, the Nazis didn't use numbers for identifying people with vaccinations. It was a bit more sinister.

And where do you get off calling it the Chinese Communist Party Virus? Is that related to "Kung Flu"? Excuse me, but your racism is showing.

OK. I found the cite. It's from WMUR, an ABC affiliate in Manchester NH. The prom was at Exeter High School. The Seacoast district has a relatively high incidence of COVID due to proximity to Maine (which is currently experiencing a peak). Unvaccinated students were numbered to allow for contact tracing. Apparently there was some notification of the plan posted on the school Web site. I don't know if the Prom became a Spreader Event.

Note that currently the only vaccine allowed for High School age students is Pfizer, and High Schoolers were the last group to be allowed to get vaccines so most are still unvaxxed (almost 50% first dose and 35% fully dosed).

You simply put faith in the CDC, WHO, NIH, Fauci, and all the NWO figureheads that are promoting this hoax. Again, the virus hasn't ever been isolated, how can you create a test for it? Why has the flu virtually disappeared in comparison to previous years? Count on Fauci facing Crimes Against Humanity for [Knowingly] giving bad advice, knowing there were much cheaper therapeutics that worked, which have been used for decades (HCQ), instead pushing experimental vaccines which we do not know the long term effects of. I dont know, but I'd wager you prefer Cuomo's style of dealing with Covid rather than DeSantis. Cuomo was one of five governors to send Covid patients into nursing homes, when President Trump had made an entire hospital ship, and field hospital facilities available. He'll be tried for his Crimes Against Humanity as well.

“ You simply put faith in the CDC, WHO, NIH, Fauci …”


Yes.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:55 pm
Where did you read that report?
...
And where do you get off calling it the Chinese Communist Party Virus? Is that related to "Kung Flu"? Excuse me, but your racism is showing.

Yeah, I just love it when people try to stick *me* with the "racist" label. Ludicrous. I did *not* call it the "Chinese Communist Party Virus." That was a quote from the news report which certainly does have a bias against the CCP for *their* racist abuses against their own people. But that doesn't make the news reporter (or me) a "racist." Here is the source:

https://link.theepochtimes.com/mkt_app/ ... 55936.html

Epoch Times? Seriously?

From Wikipedia:

The Epoch Times opposes the Chinese Communist Party,[20] promotes far-right politicians in Europe,[3][5] and has backed President Donald Trump in the U.S.;[21] a 2019 report by NBC News showed it to be the second-largest funder of pro-Trump Facebook advertising after the Trump campaign.[18][22][23] The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation.[18][24][25] In 2020, the New York Times called it a "global-scale misinformation machine".[21] The Epoch Times frequently promotes other Falun Gong affiliated groups, such as the performing arts company Shen Yun.[14][26][21]

Wikipedia. Seriously?

https://www.allsides.com/blog/wikipedia-biased

AllSides provides media bias ratings for over 800 sources and writers. Until now, we rated Wikipedia as Center, but have changed them to Not Rated because the online encyclopedia does not fit neatly into AllSides’ media bias rating methodologies, which were developed specifically for news sites.

However, it’s worth exploring numerous studies and concerns that Wikipedia has a left-wing bias, including from Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger.

5 Studies Find Wikipedia Bias

Two from Harvard researchers, have found a left-wing bias at Wikipedia:

A Harvard study found Wikipedia articles are more left-wing than Encyclopedia Britannica.
Another paper from the same Harvard researchers found left-wing editors are more active and partisan on the site.
A 2018 analysis found top-cited news outlets on Wikipedia are mainly left-wing.
Another analysis using AllSides Media Bias Ratings™ found that pages on American politicians cite mostly left-wing news outlets.
American academics found conservative editors are 6 times more likely to be sanctioned in Wikipedia policy enforcement.

Well, I guess left-wing compared to Fox and Newsmax.

Btw, WMUR did not call out the "CCP" virus. What report were you reading? According to WMUR (a more-or-less neutral source) only unvaxxed students were numbered and the school Principal said it was specifically for contact tracing if an outbreak of virus occurred.

Were you thinking of a Scarlet Letter type brand for apostates who agreed to be vaxxed?

I have a hard time believing any "news source" anymore. So I have a wide variety of sources. The first "news" report was from the Granite Grok. But the first report I saw was the one I already posted. Here it is again:
https://link.theepochtimes.com/mkt_app/ ... 55936.html
It is a worthwhile read with real information.
That source is known to call out the CCP on their violations to human rights. I think they like to call it the "CCP virus" rather than covid as a diss to the CCP.

Foil hats, anyone, and a small "injection inside" to kill things and naturally to put light through the body as I heard was very effective. I believe this should fix everything, and then I would like to be buried at see.

The virus exists and It is a world wide spread. pandemic Whatever reason started it is another question. We have to vaccine the whole world first, because the new mutations grow best where it is wildly spread. The more infected there are the more likely it is for new variants to appear. To help vaccine the poor countries is therefore the best we can do to help ourself from this.

Of course the origin of the virus is important to know too, but at this stage in the pandemic it should not be the primary focus. The poor countries still lack vaccines and this should be what we need to take care of after we have for filled our obligation to the countries we collaborate. US does import from EU but does not export vaccines to EU even though the vaccines have been produced in collaboration? US apparently live by the saying "America first"? We in the rest of the world understand why and have to accept that, but it will be remembered. It is good Biden wants to give a lot of vaccines to the poor countries. EU has provided for this for months even though we had not completly vaccinated our own audult population first. US do this now but after you have had yours and start to vaccinate children. Again , we understand why, and it will be remembered. EU and US are very different worlds. Anywhay what Biden is doing now is good. If the virus mutate again and comes back to us as something new then we might have to do everything all over again. We do not want that. US does not want it to hit USA again and EU does not want it to hit the world again. It doesn't matter much why we do it because it gives the same effect.

It is no difference whether the virus comes from but if it comes from a lab in Wuhan or from a bat is naturally interesting. What I've heard american scientists help and finance research in Whoan, but according to Fauchi it is not that kind of research that is financed. I think US should investigate this best because no other country in the world could have better insight what science has been or has not been financed by US. This might give the answer if US has been involved or not, but what else has been going on in that lab we might never know. I do not think a top-governed hierarchy system where human errors are punished very hard will ever give us answers, but it depends on the leader in the top. My belief is "bad news" does not travel very far in such a structure. The leaders only get the positive information they want and this is what they escalate to their leader. Bad news migh ruin a carrer, and this type of mistake whould probably be hard to repair, a leader in the chain probably do not want to realise the sevear consequences. He might hope the spread will stop without much damage just as your former president D. J Trump did. He certainly did not want hear about problems. Leaders might historcally also have taught their employee they not want to know of a mistake, they just want it fixed. What happens if it can't be fixed in such a context? The leader in the top has to instruct the leaders below to start digging and then if there has been any covered mistakes, then heads will roll from top to bottom. Not easy to get to the truth in such organisations.

Fix the pandemic first and then we do not need to know whether or not the origin came from a lab or from a market where wild animals are foreced on eachother and spread infections. Stop both.

/Tom

Tom,

Your long expose was carefully and thoughtfully written. I appreciate that and you as a person. However I utterly disagree with almost all of it. Your expose is pure regurgitation of main stream media messaging. I myself am horrified at the parallels to Orwell's 1984.

From Kamala Harris's tweet on Nov 12, 2020:
“Hope.
“Unity.
“Decency.
“Truth.

From George Orwell's 1984 novel of a future dystopian, totalitarian government:
“HOPE
“UNITY
“DECENCY
“EMPATHY
“TRUTH
“EXPERTS
“SCIENCE”

patrickosmith wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:37 am Tom,

Your long expose was carefully and thoughtfully written. I appreciate that and you as a person. However I utterly disagree with almost all of it. Your expose is pure regurgitation of main stream media messaging. I myself am horrified at the parallels to Orwell's 1984.

From Kamala Harris's tweet on Nov 12, 2020:
“Hope.
“Unity.
“Decency.
“Truth.

From George Orwell's 1984 novel of a future dystopian, totalitarian government:
“HOPE
“UNITY
“DECENCY
“EMPATHY
“TRUTH
“EXPERTS
“SCIENCE”

Yes, because those are objectively good things?

NOBODY wants to seem bad. OBVIOUSLY a totalitarian government would want to make themselves look good, by claiming to be good.

NOBODY wants to seem bad. OBVOUSLY a non-totalitarian government would want to make themselves look good, by claiming to be good.

The thing is, all those things are objectively subjective.

HOPE: What do we hope for? Freedom? Safety? Equality?
UNITY: What level of unity? Partisan? National? International?
DECENCY: What is decent?
EMPATHY: Where does the line for empathy go?
TRUTH: We can see the differing views in this post.
EXPERTS: Same thing.
SCIENCE: Same thing.

Are you honestly saying that you don't want these things? No, you aren't. You just oppose Harris's views, and decide to find reasons for that. Just accept that you disagree with the views, and stop throwing around claims that they are "totalitarian". Complain all you want, but not equaling them with top-tier evil would be a good way to get them to accept you, and openly discuss with you in a calm and orderly manner. Instead of trying to make others look bad, try to make yourself look good.

This frankly strays into the political category, so maybe back up a bit.

Summary of my opinion is, corona exists, vaccine good, dying bad. Not interested in more politics.

The point here was the power of the media. In 1984 they espouse these good things—which are indeed good— via the power of the media for the purpose of suppressing truth so they can keep their nice cush positions in the government.

patrickosmith wrote: ↑Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:40 am The point here was the power of the media. In 1984 they espouse these good things—which are indeed good— via the power of the media for the purpose of suppressing truth so they can keep their nice cush positions in the government.

Something that is consistently being done by regimes in Russia, China, Myanmar, and a number of other very unseemly actors. Who'd want to imitate them? Well, I guess our former President, and the Prime Minister of India for two... Sorry. I'll skip any more politics.

Something I do not understand is how even our public health people are pitching vaccine as a personal benefit. But from the public health side, that really does not matter. What they're really trying to do is not to prevent people from getting sick, but to prevent people from transmitting, and that minimizes sickness.

There is a social connectedness graph out there where each of us nodes are connected to others, potential transmission paths. Some of us are lots more connected than others. To destroy the virus, it's a matter of snipping the most paths the quickest. To do that you find the most connected people, then snip their connections by vaccinating them. We have not actually done that, rather we followed a routine of prioritizing age and co-morbidities. The difference can be seen for instance in nursing homes. The elderly in there have few connections but the staff have many, and further they have high risk external connections. The best snip would be to vax the staff first.

What we are in is the greatest "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" moment I can recall. Getting a vax is just snipping all your connections, removing oneself from the transmission pool. It's a gift to all other connections. It's not often one can do a good thing for everyone else. Everyone is a big number.

tromboneVan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:16 am Just research & Think for yourself. How hard is that? Stop Kvetching and do a little digging.

Actually, please don't. You aren't very good at the whole research thing. Ask for help from a reputable research librarian.

And yes, do take sources from conventional media... they aren't lying to you the way you think they are.

Cheers,
Andy

One thing about internet debates that confounds me to this very day, is how charitable people are in their belief that any person will be able to effectively change any other persons mind.

mrpillow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:24 am One thing about internet debates that confounds me to this very day, is how charitable people are in their belief that any person will be able to effectively change any other persons mind.

Many years ago a curious boy looked through a telescope and, on seeing the shadows in the craters of the moon, realized that he had to make a choice. His religion taught him to respect the moon as a generator of light, but science taught him that the moon reflected the sun’s rays. The subtle clarification offered by science ultimately trumped the Buddhist interpretation for Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama.

More troubling stuff...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/hea ... =url-share

Many Post-Covid Patients Are Experiencing New Medical Problems, Study Finds

An analysis of health insurance records of almost two million coronavirus patients found new issues in nearly a quarter — including those whose Covid infection was mild or asymptomatic.

Post-Covid health problems were common even among people who had not gotten sick from the virus at all, the study found. While nearly half of patients who were hospitalized for Covid-19 experienced subsequent medical issues, so did 27 percent of people who had mild or moderate symptoms and 19 percent of people who said they were asymptomatic.

Of course "correlation is not causation", but 19% is a lot of previously healthy people to start having trouble serious enough to seek medical attention such that insurance is involved.

mrpillow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:24 am One thing about internet debates that confounds me to this very day, is how charitable people are in their belief that any person will be able to effectively change any other persons mind.

That's not true, my mind was somewhat changed/informed in the pronoun debate. Not 100%, but I saw eye to eye with everyone there.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:15 pm More troubling stuff...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/hea ... =url-share

Many Post-Covid Patients Are Experiencing New Medical Problems, Study Finds

An analysis of health insurance records of almost two million coronavirus patients found new issues in nearly a quarter — including those whose Covid infection was mild or asymptomatic.

Post-Covid health problems were common even among people who had not gotten sick from the virus at all, the study found. While nearly half of patients who were hospitalized for Covid-19 experienced subsequent medical issues, so did 27 percent of people who had mild or moderate symptoms and 19 percent of people who said they were asymptomatic.

Of course "correlation is not causation", but 19% is a lot of previously healthy people to start having trouble serious enough to seek medical attention such that insurance is involved.

I can't read these articles. What health troubles were they taking about?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:23 pm I can't read these articles. What health troubles were they taking about?

You don't subscribe to the New York Times? I'm aghast. What third world labor camp are you being held in?

Some excerpts...

Those affected were all ages, including children. Their most common new health problems were pain, including in nerves and muscles; breathing difficulties; high cholesterol; malaise and fatigue; and high blood pressure. Other issues included intestinal symptoms; migraines; skin problems; heart abnormalities; sleep disorders; and mental health conditions like anxiety and depression.

In the new study, the most common issue for which patients sought medical care was pain — including nerve inflammation and aches and pains associated with nerves and muscles — which was reported by more than 5 percent of patients or nearly 100,000 people, more than a fifth of those who reported post-Covid problems. Breathing difficulties, including shortness of breath, were experienced by 3.5 percent of post-Covid patients.

Nearly 3 percent of patients sought treatment for symptoms that were labeled with diagnostic codes for malaise and fatigue, a far-reaching category that could include issues like brain fog and exhaustion that gets worse after physical or mental activity — effects that have been reported by many people with long Covid.

Other new issues for patients, especially adults in their 40s and 50s, included high cholesterol, diagnosed in 3 percent of all post-Covid patients, and high blood pressure, diagnosed in 2.4 percent, the report said. Dr. Al-Aly said such health conditions, which have not been commonly considered aftereffects of the virus, make it “increasingly clear that post-Covid or long Covid has a metabolic signature marked by derangements in the metabolic machinery.”

"brain fog"... That's what Tom Hanks had in "Joe vs. The Volcano"

Here is a link to the actual study, which i have not read.

https://bit.ly/3v8RSQv

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:11 pm ... more than 5 percent ... 3.5 percent ... Nearly 3 percent ... 2.4 ...

...

Such number suggest finding the incidence of similar complaints among the non-covid folks, since the Type A Type B errors loom large at small percentages.

John

baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:22 pm

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:11 pm ... more than 5 percent ... 3.5 percent ... Nearly 3 percent ... 2.4 ...

...

Such number suggest finding the incidence of similar complaints among the non-covid folks, since the Type A Type B errors loom large at small percentages.

Just one of those... 3.5% of the population having trouble breathing such that they had to see a doctor about it, who haven't had this problem before, all onset within a year of each other... is pretty big. That is not a normal occurrence among the general population.

All the problems together strike about 25% of the COVID population. Is 25% of the general population getting a new doctor-visit-worthy problem all within a year of each other? That sounds unusual to me.

This is a big study, nearly 2 million people with real records to look at not just a couple dozen people offering recollections.

I'm sure the statisticians will be able to make sense of this information. Certainly puts a torch to the anti-Vaxers who would rather suffer the COVID than the vaccine. Don't Vax and get COVID and have a better chance of problems than the implied side effects of the vaccine.

One of the studies cited in the above PDF ...

...estimated the adjusted excess burden of death due to COVID-19 per 1,000 persons at 6 months on the basis of the difference between the estimated incidence rate in individuals with COVID-19 and all VHA users. The excess death was estimated at 8.39 (7.09–9.58) per 1,000 patients with COVID-19 at 6 months.

Eight more than usual per thousand dying within six months. People who had not been sick enough to hospitalize turning up dead six months later.

The normal death rate is 7 per thousand so COVID is more than doubling the death rate among this set of people.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:22 pm

mrpillow wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:24 am One thing about internet debates that confounds me to this very day, is how charitable people are in their belief that any person will be able to effectively change any other persons mind.

That's not true, my mind was somewhat changed/informed in the pronoun debate. Not 100%, but I saw eye to eye with everyone there.

Not to say it never happens, but there does seem to be an impression that it's more possible than the responses often indicate

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:11 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:23 pm I can't read these articles. What health troubles were they taking about?

You don't subscribe to the New York Times? I'm aghast. What third world labor camp are you being held in?

Some excerpts...

Those affected were all ages, including children. Their most common new health problems were pain, including in nerves and muscles; breathing difficulties; high cholesterol; malaise and fatigue; and high blood pressure. Other issues included intestinal symptoms; migraines; skin problems; heart abnormalities; sleep disorders; and mental health conditions like anxiety and depression.

In the new study, the most common issue for which patients sought medical care was pain — including nerve inflammation and aches and pains associated with nerves and muscles — which was reported by more than 5 percent of patients or nearly 100,000 people, more than a fifth of those who reported post-Covid problems. Breathing difficulties, including shortness of breath, were experienced by 3.5 percent of post-Covid patients.

Nearly 3 percent of patients sought treatment for symptoms that were labeled with diagnostic codes for malaise and fatigue, a far-reaching category that could include issues like brain fog and exhaustion that gets worse after physical or mental activity — effects that have been reported by many people with long Covid.

Other new issues for patients, especially adults in their 40s and 50s, included high cholesterol, diagnosed in 3 percent of all post-Covid patients, and high blood pressure, diagnosed in 2.4 percent, the report said. Dr. Al-Aly said such health conditions, which have not been commonly considered aftereffects of the virus, make it “increasingly clear that post-Covid or long Covid has a metabolic signature marked by derangements in the metabolic machinery.”

"brain fog"... That's what Tom Hanks had in "Joe vs. The Volcano"

Here is a link to the actual study, which i have not read.

https://bit.ly/3v8RSQv

Hmmm....

Here is my take. I believe that nearly everyone on the planet has been exposed to COVID-19. We already know that it is possible to get just a little bit of the virus and have a small infection that you heal from quickly and don't notice the effects from. So let's assume that is fact one -- most people have been exposed to some background level of the virus.

Fact two is that nearly everyone on the planet has been exposed to a lack of social interaction, lack of going outside, watching way too much YouTube, and not going to work and that this is called social distancing.

The symptoms that I've quoted from you, high cholesterol, depression, brain fog, fatigue, insomnia, heart issues, etc, are all symptoms of an unhealthy lifestyle. It's easy to blame some new virus as the cause, but it's obvious that it's only tangentially related. Sitting in your chair all day causes nerve damage, pain, fatigue, and heart problems. Eating GrubHub causes high cholesterol. Reading Facebook and watching YouTube all day causes depression, anxiety, brain fog, and insomnia.

It is not unreasonable to infer that the number of people sitting on their rear all day, watching YouTube and doing absolutely nothing has doubled over the last year. The culprit is a social one, not a byproduct of damage caused by a virus.

In summer, crime goes up. Ice cream eating also goes up at the same rate. Eating ice cream doesn't make you commit crimes though, hot and unpleasant temperatures do. The same temperatures that make you eat ice cream. These things are related but not in the way that is most obvious to us at first. "Covid is evil so it must be the cause." But we've seen these symptoms before covid existed. The rate doubling just goes hand in hand with the rate of inactivity doubling. I'm surprised it's not higher, to be honest. I've been depressed for over a year now.

I don't know if Rob reported a coincidence or a causality. That remains to be sorted out.

I'm not sure if I buy completely your claim that EVERYBODY has been exposed to COVID. Maybe a larger percentage than has been assumed, but not a true totality.

On a different note, I have had the vaccine and am not magnetic. I especially want to know how these magnetic people can attract brass or aluminum keys

I want to point out that being exposed and having been infected is different. If it doesn't "latch on" you've still been exposed, just not enough for your immune system to actually have built a proper response. If you get exposed again and it does latch on it could still create a major-ish problem for you, because you don't have any response to it yet.

What I'm trying to say is this:
Most people have probably been exposed, fewer have been infected or have built a proper immune response.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:10 pm
It's easy to blame some new virus as the cause, but it's obvious that it's only tangentially related.

No, it's not "obvious"

A set of people who were fine before now have these problems at a higher rate than the general population, a general population that is experiencing the same enforced inactivity all around that you imagine is the real problem. The difference being that this set had COVID.

That is a substantial link.

It would also be quite remarkable for a virus that we know to have killed 600,000 people in this country to yet have zero consequences for everyone else who got it but didn't actually die. But that is what you are expecting us to believe with the "just lazy" theory.

I can already hear what is coming down the pipeline next... "No one ever really died of COVID. It was all just [noun][verb][noun]."

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:44 pm I can already hear what is coming down the pipeline next... "No one ever really died of COVID. It was all just [noun][verb][noun]."

We have some 600,000 cases in the US alone to refute that statement.

It is easy to blame the virus for everything. No one is going to want to touch the consequences, mental and physical, of the self quarantines and social distancing. These things were very necessary, but you can't remove them from the equation just because they were. Very depressing, lots of people let their health decline -- social interaction is absolutely necessary for our physical and mental health. If you don't think that's partially to blame, I don't know what to tell you.

The coronavirus killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of people by attacking internal organs and causing the body's immune system to attack internal organs. How does that increase cholesterol? We know what increases cholesterol and depression, and it's more easily explained by isolation and GrubHub than damage to lung tissue.

Everyone wish Bruce good luck in PBDY tomorrow, that he not transmit to any of the 90 yr olds.

Wish I were there, yada yada yada...