Medium bore trombones - why?

[sf105]

Looking at a Bach catalogue from the '60s, they listed the 34 and 36 as "symphony trombones", with the 42 as "even more symphony".
(The text reads as if it's been translated from the German).

[JohnL]

(The text reads as if it's been translated from the German).

Well, Vincent Bach (Vincent Freiherr von Schrottenbach) was a native German speaker and was still associated with the company at that time.

The structure (i.e., syntax and grammar) of one's mother tongue sometimes comes through when speaking or writing in another language.

[sf105]

(The text reads as if it's been translated from the German).

Well, Vincent Bach (Vincent Freiherr von Schrottenbach) was a native German speaker and was still associated with the company at that time.

I was aware of that. I think it's a sign of how he controlled his company that he wouldn't even have the catalogue copy-edited by a native speaker.

[Posaunus]

Was it Vincent who (in the Bach Mouthpiece Manual) described the 6½AL mouthpiece as being for "for trombonists who strive for a Teutonic tone quality" ? [Whatever that is!]

[dcslideman]

Was it Vincent who (in the Bach Mouthpiece Manual) described the 6½AL mouthpiece as being for "for trombonists who strive for a Teutonic tone quality" ? [Whatever that is!]

Teutonic

[ too-ton-ik, tyoo- ]

adjective

-of or relating to the ancient Teutons.
-of, relating to, or characteristic of the Teutons or Germans; German.
- noting or pertaining to the northern European stock that includes the German, Dutch, Scandinavian, British, and related peoples.
-(of languages) Germanic.
-Nordic.

I guess that fits right into the comments about Bach.

[Posaunus]

Was it Vincent who (in the Bach Mouthpiece Manual) described the 6½AL mouthpiece as being for "for trombonists who strive for a Teutonic tone quality" ? [Whatever that is!]

Teutonic [ too-ton-ik, tyoo- ]
adjective
-of or relating to the ancient Teutons.
-of, relating to, or characteristic of the Teutons or Germans; German.
- noting or pertaining to the northern European stock that includes the German, Dutch, Scandinavian, British, and related peoples.
-(of languages) Germanic.
-Nordic.

I guess that fits right into the comments about Bach.

I know what Teutonic means. But I don't know much about a "Teutonic" tone quality.
[And my family heritage is partly "Teutonic" (German). But also Romantic (Italian) and British (Scottish & English).]
Perhaps that's why I gave up trying to play a Bach 6½AL - I just wasn't Teutonic enough?

[SteveM]

The idea was that, in comparison to the more popular and common "C" cup mouthpieces, the 6 1/2 AL, with its medium deep cup and larger throat and back bore, would facilitate a darker, warmer sound, similar to the sound associated with German trombones or German orchestras in general.

[Macbone1]

This has probably already been said (this is a LONG string to review) but I once tried to be a "single horn" owner and had a .525 for that reason.
I did switch to brighter mouthpiece when it seemed necessary. A .525 can cover a LOT of territory, except for 1st and even 2nd in big band and jazz contexts IMHO. I couldn't achieve the "bite" I needed for those parts and got a "peashooter".
That being said, I studied long ago with a trombonist who was a first call in the Philadephia recording scene (now defunct I suspect). He'd play most anything on his 36B to include even some bass trb parts, pocketing the doubler's pay while lugging just one horn.

[Posaunus]

... He'd play most anything on his 36B to include even some bass trb parts, pocketing the doubler's pay while only lugging one horn.

Well, perhaps he used a second mouthpiece for the bass parts (to justify the doubler pay?).

[mbarbier]

I've been playing a medium bore as my daily horn professionally for about 15 years, I find it fits my playing quite well. It's sort of a frankenhorn, but more or less a conn88 with medium bore slide (but Benge prototype bell that's a bit different material than they normally are) with a 6.5ALish mp.
I mostly play chamber music, solo stuff, and improvised stuff (more free/not jazz stuff) so I tend to have a lot of sound leeway, but Im also pretty active freelancer in LA so have to fit in professionally. I've always had quite an easy time playing quite loud so I find it's no problem to keep up in orchestra with it, but flexible enough that still works well for commerical and big band stuff. I find I have to be a bit more conscious of my sound concept/how I play in those situations, but orchestral stuff was my schooling so it makes sense. It also can allow stuff to be a lot lighter, which string players tend to not mind, especially since a lot of chamber orchestras I play with regularly are one to a part.

I like it a lot more than switching horns between gigs- just find it works much better for me to work with the horn to get the sound I want than to change unless it's to play bass or valves.

I totally believe that this works for you and that you make this sound great. And it makes sense for me in this special combination. However this is more a rational of "For my overall playing profile a medium bore is the compromise that works best for me" than "a medium bore is the perfect horn for a certain setting"...

Sorry- realized I never responded to you. I don't view the medium bore as a compromise for what I do- I view it as the perfect horn for most of the settings I play in that form the core of my career, and fine for the others.

One of the primary groups I play in is a new music ensemble called wildUp. Tends to be in a 10-20 person arrangement. Generally single player per part strings, sometimes I'm the only brass or its trumpet, horn, trombone. I find a large bore is just always too much- when you've got to blend with a viola and a clarinet who are both playing piano having something that rolls off the size just a bit really helps you play with the color and flexibility you want but the large horn is just too much for. But in that setting I'm often the lowest wind, so a small bore isnt enough for that role. Similarly I've got a quartet that's clarinet, cello, and piano and it's the ideal horn for the same reasons.

So for that, and a few other spots, it's really the ideal horn- not a compromise horn. Picked up playing that statue of horn from Mike Svoboda- it's a really ideal horn for that kind of smaller chamber contemporary music playing. But it's a very very limited scope that not a ton of people work in.

This whole thread has been really enjoyable to catch up on- I didn't realize there were so many options and opinions on it.

[Macbone1]

Well, perhaps he used a second mouthpiece for the bass parts.

I suspect he did. This was around 1984 so l doubt he's around to ask.

[hyperbolica]

I used my 8h w/525 slide this week for quintet and quartet, and was quickly reminded of why 525. It's just a great sound that fits the instrumentation beautifully. And the 8h is such a joy to play in either 547 or 525 configuration.

[Macbone1]

I used my 8h w/525 slide this week for quintet and quartet, and was quickly reminded of why 525. It's just a great sound that fits the instrumentation beautifully. And the 8h is such a joy to play in either 547 or 525 configuration.

I get that. Reminds me of dual bore slides for some reason, which I really like. Oddly, I don't own any They are not that common nowadays.

[Macbone1]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

You are generally correct. Though medium bore horns take a small shank mouthpiece, so you'd only be working with whatever a larger or smaller cup can do for you, so it's limited.

[Bach5G]

I had compliments on my bass trombone sound one evening when I was playing my .525 with a Schilke 51.

[hyperbolica]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

You are generally correct. Though medium bore horns take a small shank mouthpiece, so you'd only be working with whatever a larger or smaller cup can do for you, so it's limited.

You can get 525 leadpipes that take large shank mouthpieces. With a big 4gish mouthpiece, it makes a convincing 547. As much as I like 525, I would never do that. But I guess if you don't have a 547, why not.

[Bach5G]

For my .525, I have Shires RS leadpipes for small shank and large shank mpcs. One thing: it almost guarantees that sooner or later you’ll show up with the wrong mpc leadpipe combo.

I’m off to a weeklong workshop next week. I said I would bring my bass trombone but the case I have for it weighs a ton, I’ll have a guitar with me, and I’m taking transit. I think I’ll bring my .525 and see how things go for the first day.

[dukesboneman]

Players like Jimmy Knepper NY 36, John Mosca - 79H, Nils Wogram - I forget the 525 horn he plays, Andy Hunter (WDR BB) Rath R3F, Shannon Barrett -(former WDRBB) Bach 36.
They all sound Fantastic on that size horn

[Nomsis]

https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/en/bb-tenor ... versatile/
I think this is the one that Nils Wogram plays

Edit: those who can understand german (or can use a translator) can get some details in the comments here:

[LetItSlide]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

The mouthpiece can the change the sound a lot. Tom Ervin played on a large-bore Yamaha with a small mouthpiece. Really good player but honestly I didn't care for his sound. To me a small mouthpiece on a big horn sounds odd. I've tried it myself, hated my sound, and can't think of any reason why I would want to play in public, or even at home, with such a setup.

On 525 horns, I think there is a range of mouthpieces one can get away with, within reason, and not sound weird, and get a smaller, medium or bigger bore sound. Maybe not TRUE small bore or big bore, but smallER or biggER. We all have our own opinions about the trombone sounds we like and the sounds we try to make with our equipment, and it depends on the style/genre we're playing. AND we want the setup to be playable. Etc.

Yes I think a medium bore trombone is versatile, very much so. Whether one wants/needs the versatility or not, depends on the player and the situation.

[Aznguyy]

Just wondering how much the mouthpiece can affect the timbre of a trombone - can you convincingly fake a large bore on a medium bore horn with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece, or conversely lighten up the tone with a smaller/shallower piece? If so, doesn't that extend the versatility of a medium bore?

The mouthpiece can the change the sound a lot. Tom Ervin played on a large-bore Yamaha with a small mouthpiece. Really good player but honestly I didn't care for his sound. To me a small mouthpiece on a big horn sounds odd. I've tried it myself, hated my sound, and can't think of any reason why I would want to play in public, or even at home, with such a setup.

It can be done though. Bill Pearce is a fine example. 12c on a Olds Opera I believe.

[LetItSlide]

There was never any question that it can be done.

[OneTon]

There was never any question that it can be done.

Renold Schilke used to encourage people to try different mouthpiece before trading horns. Some do better with the combination than others. I never got a 6H to cook until I stuck a Mount Vernon 11C in one. Having transcended the hurdle, I might be able to achieve similar results with some other mouthpieces. Or not. My experience is that people who try to use a Conn 88H as a bass trombone do better with a bass trombone mouthpiece. Some people may pull it off with a 6 1/2 AL. Being in a studio with microphones and post processing could be a factor.

[LetItSlide]

It can be fun to try unusual horn/mouthpiece combinations to see what sounds come out and what the playability is like. I once used a Bach 3G small shank mouthpiece in a 525 horn for a bone IV part. That was when 525 was the biggest bore horn I owned. It didn't even sound like a poor man's bass trombone. But at least I was able to play the part.

[Posaunus]

A small-shank Bach 3 is a weird-sounding mismatch to a small-bore (and probably a mid-bore) trombone. Took me less than 5 minutes to figure that out!

[Paladine]

Looking at the old "Who in their right mind plays a 1.5G?" thread, I noticed an interesting quote form Blast that fits right into this topic - "What is happening in professional orchestras, at least around these parts, is that more and more conductors are asking for 'smaller bores' for music that is not of the largest scale...... so we often end up playing smaller trombones then we would have 40 years ago." (This was posted almost 20 years ago.)

So (apparently in the U.K. at least) some conductors can actually tell the difference - and care?

Professionally, I would expect so. But in my mainly-amateur concert band (with a few ex-pro players), I sometimes use my Yamaha YSL-681B and sometimes my King 3B. The MD has never commented, so I don't know if he actually notices