Medium bore trombones - why?

[brtnats]

You guys have gotten busy talking about loud orchestral sections that you’ve missed a few points that are worth remembering. I’ve played for 30 years, played on a Bach 36 for 10 of them, then switched back to a large and small tenor.

1. Large horns are warmer at softer dynamics. Some call it muddy. Some say they lack clarity. But they’re also just warmer when played softer in a group. Modern wind band scoring (and everything that flows from that paradigm) uses trombones to fill in harmony, and often relies on that warm, non-“clear” sound.

2. Large horns are less offensive-sounding when played by players with less control. Think community band. Think high school band. Think most weekend warrior types. It takes a LOT more precision, nuance, and control to keep a medium or small horn from getting gross. Even the Yamaha mediums try and smooth that out with larger bell sizes.

(From experience now) I never once played my .525 in a situation where my .508 or my .547 wouldn’t have worked better. Ever. And I played everything on it from orchestral lit to Dixieland. It was not substantially easier to play than my current .547 and it wasn’t easier to play than my current .508. I can also achieve a much wider variation of timbre with 2 instruments than one, and when the gigs started getting more demanding, I went back to 2 horns.

@ Maximilien, not everyone HAS to play large bore tenors. And yet, they do. The number of professional players (full time, earning their income from playing) that only uses a .525 is small enough to count on 2 hands. Maybe even one. Most of the player I know who have done so are either commercial players or jazz players looking for a bigger sound. It almost never goes the other way, unless someone is looking for a specific effect for a specific subset of music. It’s like golf clubs. You don’t have to have a 5 iron, but it can come in handy.

Does the Chicago section struggle to be heard when they play their German trombones? I doubt it, or they just wouldn't do it. (yes I know German trombones can have an even larger bore, but they play and sound nothing like a modern heavy .547)

No, they do not. I’ve heard that orchestra live at least 20 times. They use bigger setups to create more warmth in a very dry hall. Friedman and Vernon have talked about this many times over the years. They also don’t struggle to play EXTREMELY softly with more clarity than any other orchestra I’ve ever heard live. You need to hear them live to fully appreciate it.

[OneTon]

Everything that brtnats says is true, not that my opinion matters. The onslaught of 0.547 bore horns eclipsing 0.525 bore horns is evidence in and of itself, not that truth is automatically democratic. There can be players out there, most probably outside the norm, that can cover all or some parts of the repertoire with 0.525 horns. 0.547 bore and a small bore horn is a good way to go. There are some particularly exposed solos or parts that don’t sound right on large bore horns, and inversely, don’t sound right on small bore horns. Does any thread hold the “longest thread” record?

[harrisonreed]

If you ignore the religious one on TTF, there was one that was like "When is a XYZ an XYZ?" I can't remember, I think it was about 1.5G mouthpieces. It was so long

[MStarke]

Does any thread hold the “longest thread” record?

I am a little bit proud that my slightly provocative question triggered such a long discussion that stayed mostly reasonable and I think contains a lot of interesting, though partly controversial opinions.

Seems like the general consensus is:
- If you can afford more than one horn, a small and a large bore typically make more sense
- There are some specific situations where a medium bore may be slightly more fitting, but they are very feasible with large or small bore as well
- Some players get along best with using a medium bore for all, but they are rare

My personal conclusion doesn't exist yet...

[Matt K]

If you ignore the religious one on TTF, there was one that was like "When is a XYZ an XYZ?" I can't remember, I think it was about 1.5G mouthpieces. It was so long

"Who in their right mind plays a 1.5G?"

viewtopic.php?t=375&start=1600

1684 posts

[harrisonreed]

If you ignore the religious one on TTF, there was one that was like "When is a XYZ an XYZ?" I can't remember, I think it was about 1.5G mouthpieces. It was so long

"Who in their right mind plays a 1.5G?"

viewtopic.php?t=375&start=1600

1684 posts

That's the one!

[OneTon]

My mind hasn’t been right for a long time. And I play a 1 1/2G. They tell me I am very happy.

[MrHCinDE]

My personal conclusion doesn't exist yet...

I thought I had mine but have changed course at least a couple of times during the lifetime of this thread.

[slidefunk]

I like my .525 horn. Definitely a chameleon, always seems to fit into its surroundings. It suites the kind of work I do, where you may have to do a little bit of everything in one night.

[harrisonreed]

My personal conclusion doesn't exist yet...

I thought I had mine but have changed course at least a couple of times during the lifetime of this thread.

In such a short time?

[Pezza]

If you ignore the religious one on TTF, there was one that was like "When is a XYZ an XYZ?" I can't remember, I think it was about 1.5G mouthpieces. It was so long

"Who in their right mind plays a 1.5G?"

viewtopic.php?t=375&start=1600

1684 posts

I do on my bass bone!

But it's up for debate if I'm in my right mind.

[Matt K]

To be fair, Harrison excluded religious posts so I don’t know if the 1.5G thread actually counts!

[SteveM]

Looking at the old "Who in their right mind plays a 1.5G?" thread, I noticed an interesting quote form Blast that fits right into this topic - "What is happening in professional orchestras, at least around these parts, is that more and more conductors are asking for 'smaller bores' for music that is not of the largest scale...... so we often end up playing smaller trombones then we would have 40 years ago." (This was posted almost 20 years ago.)

[Posaunus]

Looking at the old "Who in their right mind plays a 1.5G?" thread, I noticed an interesting quote form Blast that fits right into this topic - "What is happening in professional orchestras, at least around these parts, is that more and more conductors are asking for 'smaller bores' for music that is not of the largest scale...... so we often end up playing smaller trombones then we would have 40 years ago." (This was posted almost 20 years ago.)

So (apparently in the U.K. at least) some conductors can actually tell the difference - and care?

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

The old Williams thread on TTF

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1762

[MrHCinDE]

I thought I had mine but have changed course at least a couple of times during the lifetime of this thread.

In such a short time?

In the 2+ years I’ve cycled through these:

Large bore with additional 0.525” slide
Large bore + Small bore
Medium bore
Large bore + Small bore

I’ve figured out that I don’t need the 0.525” slide for my large bore setup at least, for me the jury is still out on the other options.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, I'm with you. I can kind of see a dedicated .525 setup if that's what you want to play, but the undersized slide on a large bell section seems like an odd choice.

[tbonesullivan]

Yeah, I'm with you. I can kind of see a dedicated .525 setup if that's what you want to play, but the undersized slide on a large bell section seems like an odd choice.

This I have to agree on. I liked my Yamaha YSL-640, but I didn't love it. It didn't play like a Medium bore, it played like a Large bore with a medium bore slide. I've been much happier with a Bach 36B since I got one, and it does exactly what I want it to: sound like a Medium bore horn to use in Concert Bands, Wind Symphonies, Chamber groups, etc. I play it with a DE LT 102 E 4*, which is perfect for the sound concept I was after. I have even played 1st in community orchestras with it, as it gets me the type of sound I want with less overall volume.

[hyperbolica]

... but the undersized slide on a large bell section seems like an odd choice.

I was going to let all of this slide (ahem) until this comment. It's not that I think you're wrong in general, it's just that the sl2525 and 8h bell combo is magical. It's way better (and very different) than a dedicated 78h. It is nothing like a 36b. The 8h bell is kind of light by 547 standards, and combined with a smaller slide, it's something I think you have to play to appreciate. I grew up on an 88h, but taking the whole thing down a couple of notches really gives you some color and limberness in the sound and articulation. The choice of mouthpiece/leadpipe lets you fine tune the sound from 547 sound to 508.

In general, I prefer the 8" bell with 525, but the 8h (and even 88h) bells are an exception. I owned an 8h custom spun to 8", but it was made from a heavier gauge, and it really didn't do anything special for me. I don't think I'd try the same with a 42, and I did try the same with a Shires, and wound up sending it all back.

Remington standardized on the 88h for a reason. The 547 size is the biggest production tenor, but the 88h is probably the smallest playing of the 547s. In my mind, that tempered the extreme. Plus 547 allows you to go far enough into bass country while still maintaining tenor sonority. I think the 88h is probably the most flexible horn of its age, and worked well for thousands of students who had to play a range of music. Ah, now I've pivoted from 525 w/ 547 bell to just talking about the 88h. And now I'll pivot again back into bore discussion.

The bore sizes are all a big spectrum, just like the music we have to play. I don't think there's any reason to fixate on any particular size if you're not limited economically or some other way to just a single instrument. 547 is out of place in a lot of music.

Many trumpet players don't believe bore size makes any difference at all. My theory on that is that the range of trombone bores spans the human air capacity limitation. On small bore, your air capacity exceeds the time you can go without oxygen (in fact I often have to exhale at the end of a phrase), but on large and bass bore, you generally run out of wind long before you need more oxygen. Trumpets never run out of breath unless they play very softly, which they tend to not do. So bore doesn't affect them in the same way that it affects us. Tuba players know that bore matters because tuba playing is a constant battle against running out of air.

[MrHCinDE]

I’ve gotta admit the SL2525 with Elkhart 8h Bell I used to own was a great combo, my Bach 42 bell with Edwards .525” slide is good but not quite special enough to justify keeping the .525” slide when I have other better options.

[Burgerbob]

You guys have gotten busy talking about loud orchestral sections that you’ve missed a few points that are worth remembering.

Yup... I play often with my old teacher, who holds a position in a top 5 American orchestra. He has a few needs in an instrument: Loud with a good sound. Easy blowing (less resistance) so the air and not as much the face can do the work, especially up high. Ability to "veil" the sound at low and medium dynamics and NOT stick out of the texture. It's also not really worth his time to keep up a bunch of different-sized tenors for small use cases.

When they are asked to play "smaller" equipment, he brings a straight 42 to deceive the eyes on the podium.

And yes, it goes without saying that he and the section sound very, very good. I wouldn't change what they play on.

[JohnL]

When they are asked to play "smaller" equipment, he brings a straight 42 to deceive the eyes on the podium.

Ah, conductors listening with their eyes. That NEVER happens, does it?

[Finetales]

At the risk of further opening the can of worms...

I'd be interested to know if a tenor trombone (or at least handslide) designed around tubing in the .535" to .540" range would prove to be more useful than a .525". There have also been slides in .515" and .520" (Reynolds for example), and it would be interesting to see what a 3BF (for example) would play like with an otherwise-identical .515" slide.

[JohnL]

At the risk of further opening the can of worms...

I'd be interested to know if a tenor trombone (or at least handslide) designed around tubing in the .535" to .540" range would prove to be more useful than a .525".

At one time, Dillon Music had a couple .536" bore Keefer trombones (one straight tenor and one with an f-attachment); as I recall, they were both the "Gardell Simons" model. Martin also made some "bass trombones" in .536"; I had one for a while, but it was never in playable condition and I ended up giving it to Steve Close.

[Finetales]

There is of course also the King 1480 at .536-.546". But what I'm after is a modern slide in these bores. A 3B or Shires slide in .512, .515, .520. A Bach 36/42 or Shires slide in .536. Etc. All else being equal, compare them back to back with the usual .508, .525, .547 slides of the same model. Maybe there's a place for them.

I think we can all agree that there's a noticeable difference between how .500" and .508" trombones play and (arguably) sound. Compared to that .008" difference, .508" to .515" is about the same, and .515" to .525", .525" to .536", and .536" to .547" are all a bit more. Seems reasonable to assume that there would be some merit there.

[Posaunus]

I think we can all agree that there's a noticeable difference between how .500" and .508" trombones play and (arguably) sound.

I'm not sure there is universal agreement about that, nor how you'd validate / prove it. Perhaps A-B a King 2B+ (0.500" bore) with a King 3B (0.508" bore)? - but I've never done that myself or witnessed such a comparison. In my limited experience, a Getzen 3508 (0.500"/0.508" dual bore) is pretty close to an ideal "small-bore" trombone, but its design details are different from any other horn that I've played.

What exactly is missing from the existing varied arsenal of trombones that we should encourage the adoption of yet another flavor to the already complex mix? Could we achieve similar results by varying mouthpieces, leadpipes, slide crooks, tuning slides, bell flares, ...?

[Finetales]

What exactly is missing from the existing varied arsenal of trombones that we should encourage the adoption of yet another flavor to the already complex mix? Could we achieve similar results by varying mouthpieces, leadpipes, slide crooks, tuning slides, bell flares, ...?

I don't think anything is "missing", I think that's the wrong perspective. We've been talking this whole thread about how .525" is kind of unnecessary for most players, and I tend to agree with that. So say we try to instead replace the .525" with something else.

Would a .515" 3BF be the Goldilocks size as the do everything small horn, better overall than either the .508" 3BF or .525" 3B+F? Would a .536" orchestral horn be a better lighter /brighter option for modern orchestral playing than a .525"? Only one way to find out.

Neither of those answers NEED to be answered of course, but if you could fill a niche a little bit better, wouldn't you like to know about it?

I've played a .515"/8.5" straight Reynolds Contempora that was a fabulous player with an incredible dense sound. It was not for sale, otherwise I would have bought it. It felt like it could be as dark and broad as a 42 or as punchy and focused as a 3B depending on how you put air into it.

(I have also A/Bed a 3B and 2B+, and there was a noticeable difference in feel.)

[JohnL]

If you'll pardon the slightly mixed metaphor...
I'm afraid what begins as search for Goldilocks will lead down a rabbit hole.

[Finetales]

Trombone rabbit holes are fun!

[LeTromboniste]

What exactly is missing from the existing varied arsenal of trombones that we should encourage the adoption of yet another flavor to the already complex mix? Could we achieve similar results by varying mouthpieces, leadpipes, slide crooks, tuning slides, bell flares, ...?

I don't think anything is "missing", I think that's the wrong perspective. We've been talking this whole thread about how .525" is kind of unnecessary for most players, and I tend to agree with that. So say we try to instead replace the .525" with something else.

Would a .515" 3BF be the Goldilocks size as the do everything small horn, better overall than either the .508" 3BF or .525" 3B+F? Would a .536" orchestral horn be a better lighter /brighter option for modern orchestral playing than a .525"? Only one way to find out.

Neither of those answers NEED to be answered of course, but if you could fill a niche a little bit better, wouldn't you like to know about it?

I've played a .515"/8.5" straight Reynolds Contempora that was a fabulous player with an incredible dense sound. It was not for sale, otherwise I would have bought it. It felt like it could be as dark and broad as a 42 or as punchy and focused as a 3B depending on how you put air into it.

(I have also A/Bed a 3B and 2B+, and there was a noticeable difference in feel.)

I'm sure they would prove for some people to be the right tool for the job for some repertoire.

[JohnL]

I'm sure they would prove for some people to be the right tool for the job for some repertoire.

That statement got me thinking about what makes a good "all-around" instrument. Nothing will ever be the perfect tool for every job, but maybe we can find something that's never the wrong tool for any job?

[harrisonreed]

I'm sure they would prove for some people to be the right tool for the job for some repertoire.

That statement got me thinking about what makes a good "all-around" instrument. Nothing will ever be the perfect tool for every job, but maybe we can find something that's never the wrong tool for any job?

The key word I think, is "job" vs "fun". You can use any trombone in any situation for fun. It's much harder to use any one trombone for every "job".

I covered a BQ part on my 3BF last night to avoid having to bring 4 trombones to one job, and it worked but it wasn't the right tool for the job on American Salute. "But Beautiful", though, it was great for.

[Finetales]

I took delivery of another (dirt cheap) King 607 today, to use as a donor horn for some projects.

This one is an early one, stamped Tempo II 607 on the bell. It was clearly a school horn and is as ugly and beat up as you would expect a cast-off old school horn to be. Every inch needs help.

And yet, it still plays great? It's more difficult thanks to the beat-up slide, but despite the dents in the valve knuckles, the rattles in the bell section, and the slide tenon that's nowhere near the right shape, it still pretty much plays like a slightly bigger 3BF. No wonder King saw fit to sell this chassis as an "intermediate" horn aimed at schools; it apparently has Toyota Corolla levels of just ignoring damage and neglect.

One thing this 607 and EVERY trashed King ex-school trombone I've seen online have in common is that, even if the rest of the horn looks like it was forcefully and repeatedly smashed into some rocks, the bell has no notable dents whatsoever. The most you'll see is some deformity at the end of the flare, which this 607 has. But never a proper crunch, never a huge dent in the middle of the bell tail, etc. They are just made of adamantium, apparently - pro models and student models alike.

Anyway, as amusing as it is that this 607 is still pretty much giggable in its derelict state, it is still destined for the cutting torch. Shenanigans are afoot.

[AtomicClock]

I covered a BQ part on my 3BF last night to avoid having to bring 4 trombones to one job

Based on watching the trumpets, I thought bringing as many horns as possible is the *whole point* of BQ.

[harrisonreed]

I covered a BQ part on my 3BF last night to avoid having to bring 4 trombones to one job

Based on watching the trumpets, I thought bringing as many horns as possible is the *whole point* of BQ.

Oh, it is. This was part of a concert where I was mostly on bass in a wind ensemble, but also had a few BQ featured pieces, and a solo on alto. 4 trombones at one event is one trombone too many.

[BGuttman]

Oh, it is. This was part of a concert where I was mostly on bass in a wind ensemble, but also had a few BQ featured pieces, and a solo on alto. 4 trombones at one event is one trombone too many.

Two trombones at one event is one too many

Full disclosure: I played a few Pops concerts where I played alto, tenor, and bass.

[tbonesullivan]

Two trombones at one event is one too many

Full disclosure: I played a few Pops concerts where I played alto, tenor, and bass.

I've done tenor and bass, but never alto tenor and bass. I play with a guy who had a concert on Tuba and one on Alto trombone in the same day. I wish my mouth was capable of that kind of playing. I just can't adjust fast enough.

[harrisonreed]

Oh, it is. This was part of a concert where I was mostly on bass in a wind ensemble, but also had a few BQ featured pieces, and a solo on alto. 4 trombones at one event is one trombone too many.

Two trombones at one event is one too many

Full disclosure: I played a few Pops concerts where I played alto, tenor, and bass.

Yes, this would have been bass, large tenor, alto, and small tenor. I cut the large tenor and just went with the 3BF. Was just okay using a3B in the BQ, but not ideal.

[Finetales]

Two trombones at one event is one too many

Not if you get doubling pay!

[MStarke]

I have played multiple concerts now with 3 (bass, large, small tenor or bass, large tenor, alto) or even 4 instruments (bass, large tenor, alto, euphonium), and that's part of the reason I am STILL not so convinced by a medium tenor. I seem to just normally prefer changing horns during a concert over using one for all.

Yesterday I had a trombone trio rehearsal and took my Minick smallbore. For the first parts it was surprisingly great (Bach 42 on second, Bach 50 on bass). It just sings in the medium to high range and in that setting there isn't really more power needed.

However I have a Blessing B78 (B/F) on the way to me. Then I will have a Blessing B7 and a Conn 78h to compare and might make my final decision I am kind of expecting to keep the B78 as obviously it is the most versatile which is kind of the point of a medium bore.

[harrisonreed]

Yes but, especially with regards to switching from bass to tenor to alto, it's like, hire more people dude. Not only am I not impressed by it, but I know the root cause of it. When I've got three horns out I'm looking for where the other paid musicians are.

[Finetales]

Personally, I will gladly bring a bunch of horns even if I'm not getting doubling pay. Doubling is fun and if it makes the music sound better, I'll make it happen. It's not always about budget.

[MStarke]

Personally, I will gladly bring a bunch of horns even if I'm not getting doubling pay. Doubling is fun and if it makes the music sound better, I'll make it happen. It's not always about budget.

For me that's 100% the case. Didn't want to brag or anything, I generally enjoy making use of more than one instrument.

[Matt K]

Depends on the gig and the environment to me. High paying? I'll bring whatever to make it as high quality as possible. Freebie/low paying gig? I might take multiple horns if the stage makes it conducive to being able to safely have them on stage. I did a gig awhile back that I played tenor & bass trombone, trumpet, flugel, and auxiliary percussion on. Did not pay a ton, but it was a fun gig and I had a ton of space to play with and the stage was setup so that nobody could knock my stuff over. Had that been a very tight stage I would have probably just done everything on a single small bore or MAYBE brought the trumpet on stage too.

[harrisonreed]

I guess I just don't like hauling 50 lbs and 25 cubic feet of cases in and out of a venue lol. It's silly. Forget doublers pay, give me movers pay.

[Matt K]

That's another consideration for sure. If I can park practically on the stage, I'm going to be much more willing to bring more stuff than the opposite extreme if I'm bussed in via a shuttle from 2 miles away (I've had both scenarios!). If I'm shtutled in I don't even want to have to take a music stand. I better have a red carpet waiting for me when I get there!

[Burgerbob]

if I can't do it in one relatively easy trip... I'm getting cartage!

As for medium bore trombones, I'm still a bit at a loss on their use. I love my 3B+F but I find myself using either my 3B/F or a large bore for tenor stuff lately. Maybe it'll get used someday.

[Finetales]

Funnily enough, so far the only time I've had cartage pay was at a gig where I had just a bass trombone.

[RJMason]

If you work in NYC you don’t want to schlep to gigs with multiple cases on the subway if you can avoid it. That’s when I used a .525 the most. When I moved to Nashville and had bought a car to get around, I didn’t mind bringing several horns to the sessions (small/large/bass).

While it may improve the music nominally, if a local crew person knocks one horn off its stand while you’re playing the other and the repair costs more than the gig pays is it worth it? And if you’re playing on stages with limited space cramming next to other horn players also vying for space is it worth it?

There is practical application for one horn that does it all and .525 can work well, especially for classically trained trombonists who get tired of orchestral work and actually want to make money lol.

[TheBoneRanger]

As for medium bore trombones, I'm still a bit at a loss on their use.

An elegant weapon for a more civilised age...