John,
I don't think you are being fair to "your standard conductor." Most of the school band and community band directors I know DO have an idea of balance. They may not know tone color and esoteric instrument niceties, but the know if the fundamental is too loud, or otherwise prominent, and if the inversion of the chord is just wrong.
So I stick by thinking Kevin's first example is particularly good. If ANYone had piped up more forcesfully the poor kid would not have wound up just plain embarrassing himself. It's too much work to play bass trombone, even BADLY, to wind up in that position.
I find it impossible to believe that the kid NEVER ran into anyone who thought he was out of control. I do not know of ANY big bands that want someone who plays half the book in the wrong octave, and all of it at the wrong volume. That includes high school groups.
I find it highly likely that there ARE places with minimal coverage by competent musicians. But zero coverage? It doesn't take training to create taste and a sense of balance. And if Sam is right, that is the part that cannot be taught...
Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 23, 2011, 07:52AMDave- the problem with using that as an example is that it's a trombone festival where the conductor (and everyone else in the group) is probably a trombonist.
At the community level, one runs into a surprising number of conductors (none of the conductors under whom I currently play) who don't know what a trombone or a bass trombone is 'supposed' to sound like. They figure that it's a slightly more dignified baritone saxophone as far as 'press levers, get roar'.
So... I'm sure that kid was appreciated in his school ensembles. I'm sure that he was respected in any community groups he happened to play with (and if it was jazz, well, the bass trombone often is called upon to come over or work around the tbone section in big band charts rather than blend).
Long story short... while that conductor was able to notice, assess, and eliminate the problem element, your standard conductor would just ***** that you're playing too loud' until you realized that it was a timbral mismatch rather than a volume one.
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
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ttf_boneagain
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Gabe-
An excellent distillation of 5 years of point/counter-point discussions on these boards. As for the increasing growth of the bass trombone in military/brass mimicking the growth in the orchestra I forward the following thought:
The day of the programming of concerts based upon a smattering of orchestral transcriptions and military band adaptations of marches is past. The brass band movement is alive and well. The bands offer handsome rewards for the successful winners of competitions for new works. The new works reflect the CURRENT state of the arranger/composers art. Not a reflection of how things were in the way-back band days.
Therefore, the parts in a modern brass band require the modern sound, and a modern instrument. The purpose of this escapes me. I have brass band experience, and after 7 years as a real Guardsman-- and too many damned parades--I have too much military band experience. Both brass band and military band have ample resources of tubists. I see no point to giving more dreck to the bass trombonist, especially if it is only audible by the bass trombonist entering an arms race to compete with several EEb and BBb tubists.
As a matter of fact, I find even more inconceivable why an ORCHESTRAL bass trombonist would enter an arms race when competing with only ONE tubist, and having to function in a supposedly musical ensemble.
To return to the thoughts about the growth of the size of both basses and tenors in the brass band, I find it discouraging that the tenors now sound like a euphonium. Again, there are plenty of conical euphs in a brass band already. In a brass band one of the more single exciting sounds--- and feels- you can find is when the bones level the bell and crank out a ffff to COUNTER the conical brass. The trombone in a brass band is a spice, and is the last resource of the arranger to be thrown into the fray when the whole kitchen sink is in play.
Second last analogy-- I liken the proper sound, in my opinion, of the brass band trombonist to be an addition to the organist "pulling out all the stops". How does the composer/arranger make an even greater impression on an audience once the whole band is playing fff on conical horns? It has to be a CONTRAST.
Last analogy-- in the fantastic film "Spinal Tap" there is a scene involving a Marshall amp that goes to 11, not 10. And the director of the film has a difficult time making the guitarist understand that a Marshall amp with a knob marked 11 is NO louder than a Marshall amp marked only to 10. If you as a trombonist can grasp the concept from the film, then you should be able to grasp that in certain cases trombonists playing louder on large equipment are NOT any louder than trombonist playing on smaller equipment. And playing large bones in a brass band are that case. You don't need a large amp/mouthpiece/bone.....you need a different SOUND, and that sound , to my way of thinking, is achieved by using a smaller set-up. The analogy being that the smaller set-up is an amp with a bit more grit/distortion in it, unlike the larger amp, which has just more volume, not a different sound.
An excellent distillation of 5 years of point/counter-point discussions on these boards. As for the increasing growth of the bass trombone in military/brass mimicking the growth in the orchestra I forward the following thought:
The day of the programming of concerts based upon a smattering of orchestral transcriptions and military band adaptations of marches is past. The brass band movement is alive and well. The bands offer handsome rewards for the successful winners of competitions for new works. The new works reflect the CURRENT state of the arranger/composers art. Not a reflection of how things were in the way-back band days.
Therefore, the parts in a modern brass band require the modern sound, and a modern instrument. The purpose of this escapes me. I have brass band experience, and after 7 years as a real Guardsman-- and too many damned parades--I have too much military band experience. Both brass band and military band have ample resources of tubists. I see no point to giving more dreck to the bass trombonist, especially if it is only audible by the bass trombonist entering an arms race to compete with several EEb and BBb tubists.
As a matter of fact, I find even more inconceivable why an ORCHESTRAL bass trombonist would enter an arms race when competing with only ONE tubist, and having to function in a supposedly musical ensemble.
To return to the thoughts about the growth of the size of both basses and tenors in the brass band, I find it discouraging that the tenors now sound like a euphonium. Again, there are plenty of conical euphs in a brass band already. In a brass band one of the more single exciting sounds--- and feels- you can find is when the bones level the bell and crank out a ffff to COUNTER the conical brass. The trombone in a brass band is a spice, and is the last resource of the arranger to be thrown into the fray when the whole kitchen sink is in play.
Second last analogy-- I liken the proper sound, in my opinion, of the brass band trombonist to be an addition to the organist "pulling out all the stops". How does the composer/arranger make an even greater impression on an audience once the whole band is playing fff on conical horns? It has to be a CONTRAST.
Last analogy-- in the fantastic film "Spinal Tap" there is a scene involving a Marshall amp that goes to 11, not 10. And the director of the film has a difficult time making the guitarist understand that a Marshall amp with a knob marked 11 is NO louder than a Marshall amp marked only to 10. If you as a trombonist can grasp the concept from the film, then you should be able to grasp that in certain cases trombonists playing louder on large equipment are NOT any louder than trombonist playing on smaller equipment. And playing large bones in a brass band are that case. You don't need a large amp/mouthpiece/bone.....you need a different SOUND, and that sound , to my way of thinking, is achieved by using a smaller set-up. The analogy being that the smaller set-up is an amp with a bit more grit/distortion in it, unlike the larger amp, which has just more volume, not a different sound.
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ttf_sabutin
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 23, 2011, 08:24AM---snip---
The non-orchestral world is a different story. I see hints that the British brass band players may be moving bigger, possibly after the model of Mark Frost. The professional bass trombone players who primarily play non-orchestral styles here in the US probably mostly play smaller mouthpieces than the symphony players, but I don't know that for sure.
---snip---
In NYC I would say that the non-orchestral norm is now a 1 1/4G-ish size. Some of the older players are still using 1 1/2Gs, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Younger players, just coming up?...usually from conservatory backgrounds? Bigger than a 1 1/4G. That's tendencies, not a law of course. I played a Benge 1 1/4G on my Holton for a long while...it worked great, up and down. Then I got a Shires and the Benge didn't work well on it. I kind of settled/compromised on a Jeff Reynolds L...great sound, great lows, a struggle up high unless I was playing it for several days in a row...and then after a few years one day it mysteriously disappeared. I really think that somehow it fell off of the table it was on into a trash basket and got thrown out. Nothing like that never happened to me before and I took it as an omen. Started experimenting w/other m'pces. I am now mostly playing a Warburton 1 1/4G...on your suggestion, thank you Gabe...but I am still looking. Sometimes it feels a little...constrictive...in terms of sound and feel in the low registers and other times it doesn't. I haven't figured out why...it could just be the amount and type of tenor work I have been doing before I pick it up. I have had at least 10 m'pces up in my practice room over the last few months...cadging examples from everyone I know. To my surprise only a Marcinkowicz 1D has shown much promise...closer to the Jeff Reynolds L than a 1 1/4G.
Still looking...
S.
The non-orchestral world is a different story. I see hints that the British brass band players may be moving bigger, possibly after the model of Mark Frost. The professional bass trombone players who primarily play non-orchestral styles here in the US probably mostly play smaller mouthpieces than the symphony players, but I don't know that for sure.
---snip---
In NYC I would say that the non-orchestral norm is now a 1 1/4G-ish size. Some of the older players are still using 1 1/2Gs, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Younger players, just coming up?...usually from conservatory backgrounds? Bigger than a 1 1/4G. That's tendencies, not a law of course. I played a Benge 1 1/4G on my Holton for a long while...it worked great, up and down. Then I got a Shires and the Benge didn't work well on it. I kind of settled/compromised on a Jeff Reynolds L...great sound, great lows, a struggle up high unless I was playing it for several days in a row...and then after a few years one day it mysteriously disappeared. I really think that somehow it fell off of the table it was on into a trash basket and got thrown out. Nothing like that never happened to me before and I took it as an omen. Started experimenting w/other m'pces. I am now mostly playing a Warburton 1 1/4G...on your suggestion, thank you Gabe...but I am still looking. Sometimes it feels a little...constrictive...in terms of sound and feel in the low registers and other times it doesn't. I haven't figured out why...it could just be the amount and type of tenor work I have been doing before I pick it up. I have had at least 10 m'pces up in my practice room over the last few months...cadging examples from everyone I know. To my surprise only a Marcinkowicz 1D has shown much promise...closer to the Jeff Reynolds L than a 1 1/4G.
Still looking...
S.
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ttf_tbarh
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Just a couple of thoughts ; I suppose that the notion that the 1 1/2G is too small for the (supposed) increasing low register demands has more to do with the sound You expect to get than mere physical limitations.When Gabe says that he can not get the sound he wants with a 1 1/2G it could simply mean that he wants(needs ? ) another sound than the 1 1/2G allows him. I see the intention of this discussion (please correct me ,Chris if You disagree ) as an attempt to defend the place of the 1 1/2G sized "sound" as a viable option( even a good option too) !
A couple of opera auditions I took has taught me that low register prowess is something audition comitees has been expecting a long time before the advent of the non-leadpipe/pizza-bell/dual bore/nosing glass sized mouthpieces..
Another argument often used; tenors and tubas are getting bigger! So what ! If the tenors are using bass slides and 3G pieces, why should a 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece with a normal size bass not work (if you can hack the low register of course ).. ? Close to the tenors and sufficiently different from the tuba.
Trond
A couple of opera auditions I took has taught me that low register prowess is something audition comitees has been expecting a long time before the advent of the non-leadpipe/pizza-bell/dual bore/nosing glass sized mouthpieces..
Another argument often used; tenors and tubas are getting bigger! So what ! If the tenors are using bass slides and 3G pieces, why should a 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece with a normal size bass not work (if you can hack the low register of course ).. ? Close to the tenors and sufficiently different from the tuba.
Trond
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ttf_John Beers Jr.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Jay Friedman plays in a hall that apparently isn't terribly complimentary to low brass, and chooses his equipment accordingly to get the sound, out in the hall, that he wants to get.
http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/equipment_-_size_does_matter
Quote from: Jay FriedmanIf you play in an orchestra full time, your choice of mouthpiece should have a great deal to do with the hall you play in. If I played in a great hall I could use a smaller mouthpiece because I wouldn't have to create so much warmth at the point of origin. I could get more help from the acoustics. The hall the Chicago Symphony Orchestra plays in is dry and hard sounding. Therefore, we must create most of the resonance ourselves, which requires that there be no edge in the sound whatsoever. That begs the question of whether you pick equipment that is the easiest to play or that sounds the best, and those two are usually not the same. As I have said before, American style instruments have a tremendous ability to focus the sound in the louder dynamics and lose core in the softer ones. Our job as players is to reverse this tendency. It may feel good for you to drive a hole through the wall with your fortissimo sound, but that is not music. Try to keep those hormones in check. I wish someone had told me this when I was starting out. My concept is to make the biggest sound that I can still focus in the medium and soft dynamics.
I play a Bach 42G with a Thayer valve and a 50 lightweight slide. I play the 50 slide because it is so free blowing, and that is what I like in a horn. I don't want to sound like a bass trombone, and couldn't if I tried. I just want as little resistance as possible, and look for a slide and bell that have a lively sound and instant response - and above all, blows completely freely.[s]
Also, I believe it was Harold von Schaik (BassBoneFL) who posted that the 42GLT50 "Friedman Model" slide has a tenor leadpipe, not a bass leadpipe.[/s]
EDIT: Redacted last comment, I was mistaken. Apologies to Mr. von Schaik.
http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/equipment_-_size_does_matter
Quote from: Jay FriedmanIf you play in an orchestra full time, your choice of mouthpiece should have a great deal to do with the hall you play in. If I played in a great hall I could use a smaller mouthpiece because I wouldn't have to create so much warmth at the point of origin. I could get more help from the acoustics. The hall the Chicago Symphony Orchestra plays in is dry and hard sounding. Therefore, we must create most of the resonance ourselves, which requires that there be no edge in the sound whatsoever. That begs the question of whether you pick equipment that is the easiest to play or that sounds the best, and those two are usually not the same. As I have said before, American style instruments have a tremendous ability to focus the sound in the louder dynamics and lose core in the softer ones. Our job as players is to reverse this tendency. It may feel good for you to drive a hole through the wall with your fortissimo sound, but that is not music. Try to keep those hormones in check. I wish someone had told me this when I was starting out. My concept is to make the biggest sound that I can still focus in the medium and soft dynamics.
I play a Bach 42G with a Thayer valve and a 50 lightweight slide. I play the 50 slide because it is so free blowing, and that is what I like in a horn. I don't want to sound like a bass trombone, and couldn't if I tried. I just want as little resistance as possible, and look for a slide and bell that have a lively sound and instant response - and above all, blows completely freely.[s]
Also, I believe it was Harold von Schaik (BassBoneFL) who posted that the 42GLT50 "Friedman Model" slide has a tenor leadpipe, not a bass leadpipe.[/s]
EDIT: Redacted last comment, I was mistaken. Apologies to Mr. von Schaik.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 23, 2011, 11:13AMAlso, I believe it was Harold von Schaik (BassBoneFL) who posted that the 42GLT50 "Friedman Model" slide has a tenor leadpipe, not a bass leadpipe.
I really don't think so. The leadpipe has to create a seal, so the terminal diameter has to be the same as the inner diameter of the inner slide. The Bach 50 stock leadpipe is fairly small as bass trombone leadpipes go.
I really don't think so. The leadpipe has to create a seal, so the terminal diameter has to be the same as the inner diameter of the inner slide. The Bach 50 stock leadpipe is fairly small as bass trombone leadpipes go.
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ttf_John Beers Jr.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 23, 2011, 11:16AMI really don't think so. The leadpipe has to create a seal, so the terminal diameter has to be the same as the inner diameter of the inner slide. The Bach 50 stock leadpipe is fairly small as bass trombone leadpipes go.
Yeah, now that I'm searching for it specifically, I can't find the post in question.
But I could have sworn I read a post on these forums (or maybe trombone-L but it's a pain to search there) that says "I had a student that was looking for a 50LW slide to use for their bass, and they found one someone had been using on a Friedman model trombone, but the leadpipe felt like a tenor leadpipe" or something of that nature.
mea culpa.
Yeah, now that I'm searching for it specifically, I can't find the post in question.
But I could have sworn I read a post on these forums (or maybe trombone-L but it's a pain to search there) that says "I had a student that was looking for a 50LW slide to use for their bass, and they found one someone had been using on a Friedman model trombone, but the leadpipe felt like a tenor leadpipe" or something of that nature.
mea culpa.
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ttf_BassBoneFL
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 23, 2011, 11:13AMAlso, I believe it was Harold von Schaik (BassBoneFL) who posted that the 42GLT50 "Friedman Model" slide has a tenor leadpipe, not a bass leadpipe.
I don't recall saying that but, hey, anything's possible.
I am pretty sure that back when I was living/playing in Chicago both Michael and Jay were using stock 50 Nickel slides with their Gold Brass 42 bells.
I don't recall saying that but, hey, anything's possible.
I am pretty sure that back when I was living/playing in Chicago both Michael and Jay were using stock 50 Nickel slides with their Gold Brass 42 bells.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 23, 2011, 08:24AM
Here in the US, the expected sound for an orchestral bass trombone player is the sound that comes from a big mouthpiece. I know of a couple of high-level players who play in the 59 range, but no smaller. Honestly, I can't think of a single one. Somebody please tell me if I'm missing someone.
Gabe's post is the post, that I feel, is closest to the truth. Different areas of the world have different musical tastes. What I find surprising in all this is the small number of posters who acknowledge this. Also, not every mpce works well for all players; something which many openly acknowledge in other posts but seems to get ignored by some here.
Here in the US, the expected sound for an orchestral bass trombone player is the sound that comes from a big mouthpiece. I know of a couple of high-level players who play in the 59 range, but no smaller. Honestly, I can't think of a single one. Somebody please tell me if I'm missing someone.
Gabe's post is the post, that I feel, is closest to the truth. Different areas of the world have different musical tastes. What I find surprising in all this is the small number of posters who acknowledge this. Also, not every mpce works well for all players; something which many openly acknowledge in other posts but seems to get ignored by some here.
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ttf_BassBoneFL
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 23, 2011, 11:13AM[s]
Also, I believe it was Harold von Schaik (BassBoneFL) who posted that the 42GLT50 "Friedman Model" slide has a tenor leadpipe, not a bass leadpipe.[/s]
EDIT: Redacted last comment, I was mistaken. Apologies to Mr. von Schaik.
No blood, no foul.... it's cool.
Also, I believe it was Harold von Schaik (BassBoneFL) who posted that the 42GLT50 "Friedman Model" slide has a tenor leadpipe, not a bass leadpipe.[/s]
EDIT: Redacted last comment, I was mistaken. Apologies to Mr. von Schaik.
No blood, no foul.... it's cool.
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ttf_The Bone Ranger
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: tbarh on Jan 23, 2011, 10:56AMAnother argument often used; tenors and tubas are getting bigger! So what ! If the tenors are using bass slides and 3G pieces, why should a 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece with a normal size bass not work (if you can hack the low register of course ).. ? Close to the tenors and sufficiently different from the tuba.
On paper, that makes sense, but in reality, not so much.
I moved away from my 1.5G (actually a Schilke 58) after attending a National Music Camp here in Australia during my university days. Coming from a relatively small Australian city, our university orchestra, (and even our city's symphony orchestra) have a good deal less players than the eastern states. Suddenly, playing in a one hundred member orchestra with strong young players who were already doing some freelance work with big orchestras, I had trouble getting my sound to 'fit'. These guys were playing 4G's and 3G's, and the tuba player was playing a 5/4CC of some sort, with a big sound. I had the most trouble balancing out the tenors, especially at bigger dynamics, where the sound of the smaller mouthpiece stood out the most. It is a very different sound, and whilst I did my best to make it work, it was hard work. I soon moved to a 59-sized piece. Perhaps there are people out there who could make such a situation work, but I doubt it. I had no problem playing the required notes, but the sonic requirements were much harder to match.
And no, before anyone asks, this was not simply heroic young men playing big equipment as loud as they can. They were physically strong players taught by great teachers, many of which have gone on to play for a living in some way, shape or form.
I love the sound of 1.5G sized pieces in a classic-size bass trombone. A very unique, instantly identifiable sound. But in the environments I make my living, in a country whose sound is being more and more influenced by the U.S., it's not really an option.
Andrew (who also loves the sound of a big bass piece being filled with air and vibration)
On paper, that makes sense, but in reality, not so much.
I moved away from my 1.5G (actually a Schilke 58) after attending a National Music Camp here in Australia during my university days. Coming from a relatively small Australian city, our university orchestra, (and even our city's symphony orchestra) have a good deal less players than the eastern states. Suddenly, playing in a one hundred member orchestra with strong young players who were already doing some freelance work with big orchestras, I had trouble getting my sound to 'fit'. These guys were playing 4G's and 3G's, and the tuba player was playing a 5/4CC of some sort, with a big sound. I had the most trouble balancing out the tenors, especially at bigger dynamics, where the sound of the smaller mouthpiece stood out the most. It is a very different sound, and whilst I did my best to make it work, it was hard work. I soon moved to a 59-sized piece. Perhaps there are people out there who could make such a situation work, but I doubt it. I had no problem playing the required notes, but the sonic requirements were much harder to match.
And no, before anyone asks, this was not simply heroic young men playing big equipment as loud as they can. They were physically strong players taught by great teachers, many of which have gone on to play for a living in some way, shape or form.
I love the sound of 1.5G sized pieces in a classic-size bass trombone. A very unique, instantly identifiable sound. But in the environments I make my living, in a country whose sound is being more and more influenced by the U.S., it's not really an option.
Andrew (who also loves the sound of a big bass piece being filled with air and vibration)
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ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Well, well...
after a long day I posted a 30 second burst that should have been a longer and carefully crafted, considered and non-toxic contribution...
and now I have offended cyclelife... again.
Please note that I try to make no personal attacks here. If someone feels personally attacked it is in their minds not mine.
A Wick 0AL is not a big mouthpiece by modern standards... a simple observation on my part that implies nothing.
The term 'also rans' was an unfortunate short-hand that was and is, unclear in it's meaning. Mostly, I was thinking of young players who are too eager to become 'finished' players.... they want what pro player X is playing, regardless of it's suitability for their present physical ability... regardless of their lack of a full range, regardless of their lack of control. I should say a lot more, but I need to go to bed.
Gabe... Mark Frost is an excellent model for any bass trombonist... but I would hesitate to recommend that a young player try to play on his setup... even lifting it up is hard.... Mark is a great example of a player who blossoms on very large equipment... and when I listen to him play it shows clearly how it is possible to sound on big equipment.... and what is lacking in so many other players trying to do the same thing.
Chris Stearn
after a long day I posted a 30 second burst that should have been a longer and carefully crafted, considered and non-toxic contribution...
and now I have offended cyclelife... again.
Please note that I try to make no personal attacks here. If someone feels personally attacked it is in their minds not mine.
A Wick 0AL is not a big mouthpiece by modern standards... a simple observation on my part that implies nothing.
The term 'also rans' was an unfortunate short-hand that was and is, unclear in it's meaning. Mostly, I was thinking of young players who are too eager to become 'finished' players.... they want what pro player X is playing, regardless of it's suitability for their present physical ability... regardless of their lack of a full range, regardless of their lack of control. I should say a lot more, but I need to go to bed.
Gabe... Mark Frost is an excellent model for any bass trombonist... but I would hesitate to recommend that a young player try to play on his setup... even lifting it up is hard.... Mark is a great example of a player who blossoms on very large equipment... and when I listen to him play it shows clearly how it is possible to sound on big equipment.... and what is lacking in so many other players trying to do the same thing.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
There are plenty of "also ran's" playing on big mouthpieces (and making a "bass trombone sound") out there who could do your job comfortably, don't knock them just because they are waiting for you to retire before they get a chance - they can play! I'm sure there would be some changes in orchestral sections if you had to audition every three years for your jobs
Swallow your pride occasionally, it's non-fattening
That I do take as personal.
Consider your own posts sir.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Exzaclee
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Chris, i hope you don't take that too personally. Sounds like sour grapes to me. anyone can say "i can play better than that guy..."
99 times out of a hundred, they can't.
99 times out of a hundred, they can't.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
(Marcinkowicz 1D is a great mpc, I did play that for a while)
QuoteI see no point to giving more dreck to the bass trombonist, especially if it is only audible by the bass trombonist entering an arms race to compete with several EEb and BBb tubists.Right. The bass trombone should not have to fight the tubas with loudness, and not try to sound like them. A contrasting sound is what is needed.
QuoteTo return to the thoughts about the growth of the size of both basses and tenors in the brass band, I find it discouraging that the tenors now sound like a euphonium. Again, there are plenty of conical euphs in a brass band already. In a brass band one of the more single exciting sounds--- and feels- you can find is when the bones level the bell and crank out a ffff to COUNTER the conical brass. The trombone in a brass band is a spice, and is the last resource of the arranger to be thrown into the fray when the whole kitchen sink is in play.
Tenors sounding like euphs is a problem that makes it hard to blend with a 1 1/2G.
It a question of sound.
"Jay Friedman plays in a hall that apparently isn't terribly complimentary to low brass, and chooses his equipment accordingly to get the sound, out in the hall, that he wants to get."
I heard Jay play very close up a few times, he does not sound like a euph, and he does sound like a genuine trombone. (he played a stock 50 lead pipe).
I remember when I meet Dennis Wick first time in Stockholm, we all thought he played a very big mouthpiece, several students went and bought the same piece, and most of them sounded like euphs. Dennis sounded great!
If a tenor trombonists can play a bass trombone mouthpiece and sound like a true tenor it is all right with me. If he sounds like a euph I hope I dont have play in the same section.
If a bass trombonist plays a tuba mouthpiece and sound like a true bass trombone, what is the problem?
Well problem can be that a student thinks the sound is in the mouthpiece and buy a tuba piece (that happens) and sound like a fake tuba.
People do sound different on the same equipment.
Many players sound fantastic on 2G. Others sound great on Laskey 95.
QuoteI see no point to giving more dreck to the bass trombonist, especially if it is only audible by the bass trombonist entering an arms race to compete with several EEb and BBb tubists.Right. The bass trombone should not have to fight the tubas with loudness, and not try to sound like them. A contrasting sound is what is needed.
QuoteTo return to the thoughts about the growth of the size of both basses and tenors in the brass band, I find it discouraging that the tenors now sound like a euphonium. Again, there are plenty of conical euphs in a brass band already. In a brass band one of the more single exciting sounds--- and feels- you can find is when the bones level the bell and crank out a ffff to COUNTER the conical brass. The trombone in a brass band is a spice, and is the last resource of the arranger to be thrown into the fray when the whole kitchen sink is in play.
Tenors sounding like euphs is a problem that makes it hard to blend with a 1 1/2G.
It a question of sound.
"Jay Friedman plays in a hall that apparently isn't terribly complimentary to low brass, and chooses his equipment accordingly to get the sound, out in the hall, that he wants to get."
I heard Jay play very close up a few times, he does not sound like a euph, and he does sound like a genuine trombone. (he played a stock 50 lead pipe).
I remember when I meet Dennis Wick first time in Stockholm, we all thought he played a very big mouthpiece, several students went and bought the same piece, and most of them sounded like euphs. Dennis sounded great!
If a tenor trombonists can play a bass trombone mouthpiece and sound like a true tenor it is all right with me. If he sounds like a euph I hope I dont have play in the same section.
If a bass trombonist plays a tuba mouthpiece and sound like a true bass trombone, what is the problem?
Well problem can be that a student thinks the sound is in the mouthpiece and buy a tuba piece (that happens) and sound like a fake tuba.
People do sound different on the same equipment.
Many players sound fantastic on 2G. Others sound great on Laskey 95.
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ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: Exzaclee on Jan 23, 2011, 05:00PMChris, i hope you don't take that too personally. Sounds like sour grapes to me. anyone can say "i can play better than that guy..."
99 times out of a hundred, they can't.
Thanks for that. I get offered enough work outside the Opera to know that what I do is still acceptable... anyway, these days you are on trial every time you play.... I was at a party last night and ended up talking to our Music Director... he was in listening to shows on Friday and Saturday... he asked me what trombone I was playing on Saturday as it was different from the one on Friday... that's a pair of ears... only the bell section was different... both Holtons... one a screw bell, one a regular bell... so he could hear the bell in the whole orchestra sound.. scary.
Chris Stearn
99 times out of a hundred, they can't.
Thanks for that. I get offered enough work outside the Opera to know that what I do is still acceptable... anyway, these days you are on trial every time you play.... I was at a party last night and ended up talking to our Music Director... he was in listening to shows on Friday and Saturday... he asked me what trombone I was playing on Saturday as it was different from the one on Friday... that's a pair of ears... only the bell section was different... both Holtons... one a screw bell, one a regular bell... so he could hear the bell in the whole orchestra sound.. scary.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_savio
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
So much happen here in just 2 days?
This tread raise a more important question than just about the 1 1/2g.
We see the direction the trombone has taken the last 60-70 years or so?
Where will it go?
Where do we want it to go?
should we care about it??
Where do the audience, fellow musicians, conductors want us to go?
Some of us, and some of them don't care. Most have enough with our daily doing.
But some in all this categories of people do think about it, do have a meaning about it.
I want to listen trombone sound like the trombone sound was in the 1950-70. But that's my personal meaning. To me it was more refined, delicious and with more character. I say again that's my personal thoughts.
There is also another aspect of this, and that's what we tell the young generation to do. Its a responsibility. And all should also think a little about what is the trombone in the future?
The answear is not to play a 1 1/2g or whatever. Its about our attitude. The answear is to look a little at history, listen the old masters and don't forget they did make great music and great sound. Understand how they did and learn some from them. Important for the new young generation. I think its a lot about what is in our head. If a kid grow up today and all he knows is: "I have to use the biggest equipment around to sound better" then we as grown up role models have done wrong against them. Do we have to care about this? Yes. All trombonist that is a role model for any other, should think about this.
OK I know today's students and many pro, especially America?, just have to do what the rest do to make their daily bread. They have to play what they feel can make them get the job. They have to focus on their playing, and do as Sam say. Use what works. They have to please the demands from around them and its a though world. I don't know much about this world, I'm little outside this and have the opportunity to make my "private" goals for my sound and my trombone.
But please stop and think a little. We are role models. What direction for us or the new trombone world?
I also agree with people when they say the most is already told in this tread. But still I think we should focus at this tread everyday. Its a important tread for the future? I think there are many aspects here we should repeat everyday. Remind us everyday. Its a reason this tread is big. Don't think this tread is done. I believe it will be more and more important because its really is about where we go in the future.
So all should reflect and think a little. Not just follow the stream.
Leif
This tread raise a more important question than just about the 1 1/2g.
We see the direction the trombone has taken the last 60-70 years or so?
Where will it go?
Where do we want it to go?
should we care about it??
Where do the audience, fellow musicians, conductors want us to go?
Some of us, and some of them don't care. Most have enough with our daily doing.
But some in all this categories of people do think about it, do have a meaning about it.
I want to listen trombone sound like the trombone sound was in the 1950-70. But that's my personal meaning. To me it was more refined, delicious and with more character. I say again that's my personal thoughts.
There is also another aspect of this, and that's what we tell the young generation to do. Its a responsibility. And all should also think a little about what is the trombone in the future?
The answear is not to play a 1 1/2g or whatever. Its about our attitude. The answear is to look a little at history, listen the old masters and don't forget they did make great music and great sound. Understand how they did and learn some from them. Important for the new young generation. I think its a lot about what is in our head. If a kid grow up today and all he knows is: "I have to use the biggest equipment around to sound better" then we as grown up role models have done wrong against them. Do we have to care about this? Yes. All trombonist that is a role model for any other, should think about this.
OK I know today's students and many pro, especially America?, just have to do what the rest do to make their daily bread. They have to play what they feel can make them get the job. They have to focus on their playing, and do as Sam say. Use what works. They have to please the demands from around them and its a though world. I don't know much about this world, I'm little outside this and have the opportunity to make my "private" goals for my sound and my trombone.
But please stop and think a little. We are role models. What direction for us or the new trombone world?
I also agree with people when they say the most is already told in this tread. But still I think we should focus at this tread everyday. Its a important tread for the future? I think there are many aspects here we should repeat everyday. Remind us everyday. Its a reason this tread is big. Don't think this tread is done. I believe it will be more and more important because its really is about where we go in the future.
So all should reflect and think a little. Not just follow the stream.
Leif
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ttf_John Beers Jr.
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Leif- to start this message, let me just preface it by saying that I have as much respect for you as I do for anyone who lives on the internet, and none of my response is meant to sound vitriolic/as though it's attacking you personally. I like you and like conversing with you on these forums, even when we don't agree. 
Quote from: savio on Jan 24, 2011, 07:54AMSo much happen here in just 2 days?
This tread raise a more important question than just about the 1 1/2g.
We see the direction the trombone has taken the last 60-70 years or so?
Where will it go?
Where do we want it to go?
should we care about it??
Where do the audience, fellow musicians, conductors want us to go?
The trend that the trombone has taken in the last 60-70 years is one of more, not less, personality. Musicians able to choose a mouthpiece customized to within 0.1 millimeters in rim size, with a backbore/throat that they find completely to their liking, with an outer blank shape that rewards their playing style. A combination of bell leadpipe and slide crook that *just recently* would have required flying out to Larry Minick and dropping off your horn for a long time.
In the tenor realm (I'm probably really a tenor player, but I play bass Mondays and Tuesdays so I have my bass hat on for now) we argue, constantly, over 4G vs. 5G rim, do we want the 51 or the slightly shallower 51C4... do we want the Griego Deco or New York blank? Yamaha 7C vs. Wick 7CS, rim shape, rim size, comfort, backbore.
Doug Elliott posts pretty regularly about embouchure types and whether they dictate larger or smaller rim sizes, and then works from there.
Then.... we look at bass trombone equipment... and it feels like a double standard to say "27.1mm rim with 1.5G cup will fit everyone, you don't need anything bigger"
QuoteI want to listen trombone sound like the trombone sound was in the 1950-70. But that's my personal meaning. To me it was more refined, delicious and with more character. I say again that's my personal thoughts. I hear what you're saying Leif, but again... people hear what they want to hear. Listen to Jorgen van Rijen on the tenor side. I wouldn't say that his sound lacks any character whatsoever. On the bass side, I'd look at Denson Paul Pollard or Randy Hawes... once again, plenty of character, plenty of "ME" in every one of their recordings.
QuoteThere is also another aspect of this, and that's what we tell the young generation to do. Its a responsibility. And all should also think a little about what is the trombone in the future?
The answear is not to play a 1 1/2g or whatever. Its about our attitude. The answear is to look a little at history, listen the old masters and don't forget they did make great music and great sound. Understand how they did and learn some from them. Important for the new young generation. I think its a lot about what is in our head. If a kid grow up today and all he knows is: "I have to use the biggest equipment around to sound better" then we as grown up role models have done wrong against them. Do we have to care about this? Yes. All trombonist that is a role model for any other, should think about this.
Leif- our students, 20-30 years from now (if we're lucky and instrumental music still has a place in the world), will be playing the music that composers are writing today. Which, from what I can tell, is by and large brassband/wind symphony parts as far as heavy hitters for the trombone are concerned.
Godzilla Eats Las Vegas on every orchestra audition for bassbone!
QuoteI also agree with people when they say the most is already told in this tread. But still I think we should focus at this tread everyday. Its a important tread for the future? I think there are many aspects here we should repeat everyday. Remind us everyday. Its a reason this tread is big. Don't think this tread is done. I believe it will be more and more important because its really is about where we go in the future.
I agree with you Leif. This thread has a valid purpose, which is that an established, highly-musical and highly-respected professional musician (Mr. Stearn) is letting the Bass Trombone world (especially those of us that are still studying) know "Hey, look- if you're struggling with that Schilke 60 or Laskey 93D... maybe try dialing it back again to something smaller, maybe you'll like it. When trying out mouthpieces don't aim straight at the Hammond 21 without trying the 20 and 19 sizes".
But, from time to time, that purpose gets corrupted by a sort of cult groupthink mentality.
But... yeah. You look at the repertoire, you look at the orchestra with whom you'll be playing, you look at the hall (ok, most of us at the community level don't need to worry about the hall, we need to worry about ourselves) and you look at your sectionmates.
Then, you take the equipment that you already have and make beautiful music with them, while trying to achieve an optimal blend. And sometimes, a bigger (or smaller) mouthpiece or a heavier (or lighter) bell or a dual bore .562/.578 (or dual bore .547/.562) will help you do that.
The key in all of this, in the absence of other evidence, is to trust that the person with whom you're conversing, be they an elementary/middle/high school student or an established professional musician, is able to hear the truth, understand the truth, and benefit from it, rather than throwing down general rules of thumb as far as "If you're in high school play a 6.5AL" until such point as they get tired of listening to the din and decide to do some real experimentation for themselves.8
Quote from: savio on Jan 24, 2011, 07:54AMSo much happen here in just 2 days?
This tread raise a more important question than just about the 1 1/2g.
We see the direction the trombone has taken the last 60-70 years or so?
Where will it go?
Where do we want it to go?
should we care about it??
Where do the audience, fellow musicians, conductors want us to go?
The trend that the trombone has taken in the last 60-70 years is one of more, not less, personality. Musicians able to choose a mouthpiece customized to within 0.1 millimeters in rim size, with a backbore/throat that they find completely to their liking, with an outer blank shape that rewards their playing style. A combination of bell leadpipe and slide crook that *just recently* would have required flying out to Larry Minick and dropping off your horn for a long time.
In the tenor realm (I'm probably really a tenor player, but I play bass Mondays and Tuesdays so I have my bass hat on for now) we argue, constantly, over 4G vs. 5G rim, do we want the 51 or the slightly shallower 51C4... do we want the Griego Deco or New York blank? Yamaha 7C vs. Wick 7CS, rim shape, rim size, comfort, backbore.
Doug Elliott posts pretty regularly about embouchure types and whether they dictate larger or smaller rim sizes, and then works from there.
Then.... we look at bass trombone equipment... and it feels like a double standard to say "27.1mm rim with 1.5G cup will fit everyone, you don't need anything bigger"
QuoteI want to listen trombone sound like the trombone sound was in the 1950-70. But that's my personal meaning. To me it was more refined, delicious and with more character. I say again that's my personal thoughts. I hear what you're saying Leif, but again... people hear what they want to hear. Listen to Jorgen van Rijen on the tenor side. I wouldn't say that his sound lacks any character whatsoever. On the bass side, I'd look at Denson Paul Pollard or Randy Hawes... once again, plenty of character, plenty of "ME" in every one of their recordings.
QuoteThere is also another aspect of this, and that's what we tell the young generation to do. Its a responsibility. And all should also think a little about what is the trombone in the future?
The answear is not to play a 1 1/2g or whatever. Its about our attitude. The answear is to look a little at history, listen the old masters and don't forget they did make great music and great sound. Understand how they did and learn some from them. Important for the new young generation. I think its a lot about what is in our head. If a kid grow up today and all he knows is: "I have to use the biggest equipment around to sound better" then we as grown up role models have done wrong against them. Do we have to care about this? Yes. All trombonist that is a role model for any other, should think about this.
Leif- our students, 20-30 years from now (if we're lucky and instrumental music still has a place in the world), will be playing the music that composers are writing today. Which, from what I can tell, is by and large brassband/wind symphony parts as far as heavy hitters for the trombone are concerned.
Godzilla Eats Las Vegas on every orchestra audition for bassbone!
QuoteI also agree with people when they say the most is already told in this tread. But still I think we should focus at this tread everyday. Its a important tread for the future? I think there are many aspects here we should repeat everyday. Remind us everyday. Its a reason this tread is big. Don't think this tread is done. I believe it will be more and more important because its really is about where we go in the future.
I agree with you Leif. This thread has a valid purpose, which is that an established, highly-musical and highly-respected professional musician (Mr. Stearn) is letting the Bass Trombone world (especially those of us that are still studying) know "Hey, look- if you're struggling with that Schilke 60 or Laskey 93D... maybe try dialing it back again to something smaller, maybe you'll like it. When trying out mouthpieces don't aim straight at the Hammond 21 without trying the 20 and 19 sizes".
But, from time to time, that purpose gets corrupted by a sort of cult groupthink mentality.
But... yeah. You look at the repertoire, you look at the orchestra with whom you'll be playing, you look at the hall (ok, most of us at the community level don't need to worry about the hall, we need to worry about ourselves) and you look at your sectionmates.
Then, you take the equipment that you already have and make beautiful music with them, while trying to achieve an optimal blend. And sometimes, a bigger (or smaller) mouthpiece or a heavier (or lighter) bell or a dual bore .562/.578 (or dual bore .547/.562) will help you do that.
The key in all of this, in the absence of other evidence, is to trust that the person with whom you're conversing, be they an elementary/middle/high school student or an established professional musician, is able to hear the truth, understand the truth, and benefit from it, rather than throwing down general rules of thumb as far as "If you're in high school play a 6.5AL" until such point as they get tired of listening to the din and decide to do some real experimentation for themselves.8
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ttf_BGuttman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
John, I think Leif is upset with the "gear head" kids who think "bigger is better" regardless of whether it really is. If Fred is playing a 1G, I gotta play a 1G. Even though neither of them can play a note in tune above the bass staff. Leif takes the tack that we are making music and it doesn't matter whether you are playing a Greenhoe or a kazoo; it's the output that matters.
In one sense, you have to start somewhere. Then you have to get some kind of foundation before you can know what you don't know and start searching for it.
One of the most frustrating posts I see is "I'm currently playing a Frumpy Glotz mouthpiece and wonder if there's anything better". It shows clearly that the questioner doesn't know what he doesn't know. A change of mouthpiece will help some things and hurt others. One has to have enough ability to know the difference. Unfortunately, many Middle School and High School players (at least the ones I have met) can't. It often takes guidance from an experienced player (or teacher) to help them know the difference.
Case in point. One of the better High Schoolers I know (who happens to be a Forum member) was playing a Conn 3B mouthpiece and not getting good results. His teacher advised him to get a different mouthpiece. So I started loaning him mouthpieces from my collection of rejects. On the second one something clicked (according to his teacher) and so I sold it to him. I think he's happy. I think his teacher is happy. And he wants to become a music teacher himself so I hope that happens too (except for the proposal going before the New Hampshire legislature to defund all arts, technology, and languages education).
Most germane to my point, he is making music with the new setup. Not worrying what his next mouthpiece will be (I hope).
In one sense, you have to start somewhere. Then you have to get some kind of foundation before you can know what you don't know and start searching for it.
One of the most frustrating posts I see is "I'm currently playing a Frumpy Glotz mouthpiece and wonder if there's anything better". It shows clearly that the questioner doesn't know what he doesn't know. A change of mouthpiece will help some things and hurt others. One has to have enough ability to know the difference. Unfortunately, many Middle School and High School players (at least the ones I have met) can't. It often takes guidance from an experienced player (or teacher) to help them know the difference.
Case in point. One of the better High Schoolers I know (who happens to be a Forum member) was playing a Conn 3B mouthpiece and not getting good results. His teacher advised him to get a different mouthpiece. So I started loaning him mouthpieces from my collection of rejects. On the second one something clicked (according to his teacher) and so I sold it to him. I think he's happy. I think his teacher is happy. And he wants to become a music teacher himself so I hope that happens too (except for the proposal going before the New Hampshire legislature to defund all arts, technology, and languages education).
Most germane to my point, he is making music with the new setup. Not worrying what his next mouthpiece will be (I hope).
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ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
I think Gabe is probably right that the bass trombone sound concept prevalent in American professional orchestras has changed drastically since the 1960's. Simple fact. That means that the sound concept of professional and aspiring professional bass trombone players in the U.S. and the U.K. is different. Simple fact.
Therefore there are kids in the U.S. struggling to play equipment that they may well, in the end, play on... and there are kids in the U.K. struggling to play on equipment that they will probably not end up using. Such is life.
Mark Frost is about the only person I can think of regularly playing in U.K. orchestras that uses a very (note,very) large mouthpiece. This was not the case 20 years ago.. so I think that to an extent players have reverted to the smaller (Bach 1 1/4G and below) sizes here. Probably this is due to the wonderful playing of Bob Hughes, Christian Jones, Keith McNichol and Dave Stewart, amongst others, who as well as being great players have also taught the younger generation.
Sounds in mainland Europe are different again... and let's remember that there a far more professional orchestras in Europe than the U.K. and U.S. put together... and if anyone can be said to be at the heart of the orchestral tradition it is the central European countries... perhaps we need some input from there... I was talking about it to our Musical Director yesterday... he is Italian and has worked all his life in German Opera houses... so his take on trombone sound is very different.
Chris Stearn
Therefore there are kids in the U.S. struggling to play equipment that they may well, in the end, play on... and there are kids in the U.K. struggling to play on equipment that they will probably not end up using. Such is life.
Mark Frost is about the only person I can think of regularly playing in U.K. orchestras that uses a very (note,very) large mouthpiece. This was not the case 20 years ago.. so I think that to an extent players have reverted to the smaller (Bach 1 1/4G and below) sizes here. Probably this is due to the wonderful playing of Bob Hughes, Christian Jones, Keith McNichol and Dave Stewart, amongst others, who as well as being great players have also taught the younger generation.
Sounds in mainland Europe are different again... and let's remember that there a far more professional orchestras in Europe than the U.K. and U.S. put together... and if anyone can be said to be at the heart of the orchestral tradition it is the central European countries... perhaps we need some input from there... I was talking about it to our Musical Director yesterday... he is Italian and has worked all his life in German Opera houses... so his take on trombone sound is very different.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_Torobone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: blast on Jan 24, 2011, 03:50AMThanks for that. I get offered enough work outside the Opera to know that what I do is still acceptable... anyway, these days you are on trial every time you play.... I was at a party last night and ended up talking to our Music Director... he was in listening to shows on Friday and Saturday... he asked me what trombone I was playing on Saturday as it was different from the one on Friday... that's a pair of ears... only the bell section was different... both Holtons... one a screw bell, one a regular bell... so he could hear the bell in the whole orchestra sound.. scary.
Chris Stearn
Scary, but good scary! I find it so great when I come across an MD that is so aware. I find it makes the whole group try harder and the result is memorable.
Chris Stearn
Scary, but good scary! I find it so great when I come across an MD that is so aware. I find it makes the whole group try harder and the result is memorable.
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ttf_cozzagiorgi
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:32 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Blast, it would be cool if you could expand a little on what your MD is expecting from the trombones. And what the difference is between his expectations and what you would play.
And of course it would be interesting to know what the italian player play. I'll do a post on the italian forum, but I don't think I'll get many answers.
In Switzerland, most bass trombonists I'm aware of play 1 1/2 G and a little larger, but I only know few professional bass trombonists.
I think Stefan Schulz, our new bass trombone star in europe, plays something like Schilke 60... I THINK. But generally I don't hear people talk about equipment often.
And of course it would be interesting to know what the italian player play. I'll do a post on the italian forum, but I don't think I'll get many answers.
In Switzerland, most bass trombonists I'm aware of play 1 1/2 G and a little larger, but I only know few professional bass trombonists.
I think Stefan Schulz, our new bass trombone star in europe, plays something like Schilke 60... I THINK. But generally I don't hear people talk about equipment often.
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ttf_cyclelife
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: blast on Jan 23, 2011, 03:40PM
That I do take as personal.
Consider your own posts sir.
Chris Stearn
Chris, Sorry, it was not meant to be personal but a generalised comment.
However I do get fed up with the arrogance and unhelpfulness of some supposed professionals.
I also do not consider my 0AL to be a big mouthpiece :)a 60 or 1G feels too much for me to consider producing a good sound on for any length of time.
That I do take as personal.
Consider your own posts sir.
Chris Stearn
Chris, Sorry, it was not meant to be personal but a generalised comment.
However I do get fed up with the arrogance and unhelpfulness of some supposed professionals.
I also do not consider my 0AL to be a big mouthpiece :)a 60 or 1G feels too much for me to consider producing a good sound on for any length of time.
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ttf_John Beers Jr.
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: cyclelife on Jan 24, 2011, 10:32AMChris, Sorry, it was not meant to be personal but a generalised comment.
I didn't read your post as a personal attack or sour grapes either, more a "The sound is the important thing, not the size you get the sound on, small or large, in either direction" type of comment.
Quote from: cyclelife on Jan 24, 2011, 10:32AMHowever I do get fed up with the arrogance and unhelpfulness of some supposed professionals.
I also do not consider my 0AL to be a big mouthpiece :)a 60 or 1G feels too much for me to consider producing a good sound on for any length of time.
One thing to keep in mind is that many of these professionals can charge $80-100/hr giving the very same type of input they give here via private lessons (admittedly a bit more personalized, but still). I recently received some humongously personalized and helpful advice, free of charge, from a fine bass trombonist in a full-season professional orchestra, after contacting him via Facebook, and he was kind enough to provide some invaluable advice to me.
Mr. Stearn, Mr. Elliott, Mr. Langfur, Mr. Burtis, Mr. von Schaik, Mr. Whitaker and others can obviously help you more in person than they can via a 'guess' over the internet... but the fact that they donate their valuable time and hard-won insight to us. Look at the Who's Online feature (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=who;start=0;sort=user) sometimes, and look at the amount of time they spend on a single post to make sure that they're as helpful and well-phrased as possible, and you'll realize just how much they're (maybe sacrificing, maybe just donating, maybe taking a break from the horn to get the blood back into their lips) giving us.
I didn't read your post as a personal attack or sour grapes either, more a "The sound is the important thing, not the size you get the sound on, small or large, in either direction" type of comment.
Quote from: cyclelife on Jan 24, 2011, 10:32AMHowever I do get fed up with the arrogance and unhelpfulness of some supposed professionals.
I also do not consider my 0AL to be a big mouthpiece :)a 60 or 1G feels too much for me to consider producing a good sound on for any length of time.
One thing to keep in mind is that many of these professionals can charge $80-100/hr giving the very same type of input they give here via private lessons (admittedly a bit more personalized, but still). I recently received some humongously personalized and helpful advice, free of charge, from a fine bass trombonist in a full-season professional orchestra, after contacting him via Facebook, and he was kind enough to provide some invaluable advice to me.
Mr. Stearn, Mr. Elliott, Mr. Langfur, Mr. Burtis, Mr. von Schaik, Mr. Whitaker and others can obviously help you more in person than they can via a 'guess' over the internet... but the fact that they donate their valuable time and hard-won insight to us. Look at the Who's Online feature (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=who;start=0;sort=user) sometimes, and look at the amount of time they spend on a single post to make sure that they're as helpful and well-phrased as possible, and you'll realize just how much they're (maybe sacrificing, maybe just donating, maybe taking a break from the horn to get the blood back into their lips) giving us.
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ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Bruce did understand me right. Thanks. I know my English is hard to understand John.
What mouthpiece people play is not my business or any others business. An American orchestra player on a 60 size or bigger can still have a role modell and attitude to the younger generation that "bigger is not better for all". They still can tell listen to old masters and show the hole picture to the younger generation. Exactly what mouthpiece each should play have nothing to do with that. And is not what any can tell here in a forum.
One thing is sure. Music can be made out of any size by the right player. My point was to see more nuanced at it. The past, the future and today. Reflect a little over what to tell the younger generation. Should we follow the trend the last 60 years and get bigger and bigger equipment? Is that the direction? Where will it end? Should we maybe stop a little and look where to go?
The attitude is what all of us can think about. Its what we all can give to the next generation. I have my thoughts, I don't have any answear. The next generation have the answear. But it depends a lot on what we give them. Therefore I also tell that we as educators musicians should give them a CD with George Roberts, A CD with Bob Huges playing in the orchestra. A CD with Jeff Reynolds playing his virtuoso solo music. And also the many CD of today's great players. Then they get the hole picture.
We need the history to develop further. If you only focus on what happens today, it is wrong in my eyes. Same if you only focus on "yesterday" The hole picture is what we need. Therefore I think this tread is important. And will be more and more important. Because what lie "under" hole this tread is about the future and where the trombone is going. The 1 1/2g is a palpable way to get into it. It also show that this mouthpiece still is a "real" choice in the pro world.
My personals thoughts is of no interest for the today's players. But I think the direction to: louder, bigger, darker, more uniformed, perfect, is making the trombone less interesting all over. I think a lot of the trombone character suffer when this factors are the trend. Just my thoughts.
Its not a lack of good musicians and trombonist. There are more and more of them. More and more of both good and bad.
This is an interesting tread because I think we all agree that what makes the trombone so unique and loved is its character in sound. People recognise it, and we love it. This tread is about sound also.
What mouthpiece people play is not my business or any others business. An American orchestra player on a 60 size or bigger can still have a role modell and attitude to the younger generation that "bigger is not better for all". They still can tell listen to old masters and show the hole picture to the younger generation. Exactly what mouthpiece each should play have nothing to do with that. And is not what any can tell here in a forum.
One thing is sure. Music can be made out of any size by the right player. My point was to see more nuanced at it. The past, the future and today. Reflect a little over what to tell the younger generation. Should we follow the trend the last 60 years and get bigger and bigger equipment? Is that the direction? Where will it end? Should we maybe stop a little and look where to go?
The attitude is what all of us can think about. Its what we all can give to the next generation. I have my thoughts, I don't have any answear. The next generation have the answear. But it depends a lot on what we give them. Therefore I also tell that we as educators musicians should give them a CD with George Roberts, A CD with Bob Huges playing in the orchestra. A CD with Jeff Reynolds playing his virtuoso solo music. And also the many CD of today's great players. Then they get the hole picture.
We need the history to develop further. If you only focus on what happens today, it is wrong in my eyes. Same if you only focus on "yesterday" The hole picture is what we need. Therefore I think this tread is important. And will be more and more important. Because what lie "under" hole this tread is about the future and where the trombone is going. The 1 1/2g is a palpable way to get into it. It also show that this mouthpiece still is a "real" choice in the pro world.
My personals thoughts is of no interest for the today's players. But I think the direction to: louder, bigger, darker, more uniformed, perfect, is making the trombone less interesting all over. I think a lot of the trombone character suffer when this factors are the trend. Just my thoughts.
Its not a lack of good musicians and trombonist. There are more and more of them. More and more of both good and bad.
This is an interesting tread because I think we all agree that what makes the trombone so unique and loved is its character in sound. People recognise it, and we love it. This tread is about sound also.
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ttf_savio
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: cozzagiorgi on Jan 24, 2011, 10:27AMBlast, it would be cool if you could expand a little on what your MD is expecting from the trombones. And what the difference is between his expectations and what you would play.
And of course it would be interesting to know what the italian player play. I'll do a post on the italian forum, but I don't think I'll get many answers.
In Switzerland, most bass trombonists I'm aware of play 1 1/2 G and a little larger, but I only know few professional bass trombonists.
I think Stefan Schulz, our new bass trombone star in europe, plays something like Schilke 60... I THINK. But generally I don't hear people talk about equipment often.
I was childis enough to ask Stefan once in a mail.
He told he play his good old Schilke 59. Who cares? Well I admit I did But I should not. 
Leif
And of course it would be interesting to know what the italian player play. I'll do a post on the italian forum, but I don't think I'll get many answers.
In Switzerland, most bass trombonists I'm aware of play 1 1/2 G and a little larger, but I only know few professional bass trombonists.
I think Stefan Schulz, our new bass trombone star in europe, plays something like Schilke 60... I THINK. But generally I don't hear people talk about equipment often.
I was childis enough to ask Stefan once in a mail.
He told he play his good old Schilke 59. Who cares? Well I admit I did But I should not. Leif
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ttf_blast
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
We are well and truly off topic here (again) in very interesting ground that goes well beyond the use of the humble 1 1/2G... probably better to talk more directly about some of this in a new topic in the music sections.
To directly answer one question, our musical director is quite content to allow us to play within our U.K. style, just to do it musically
He was talking of the differences between our sound and the German sound... as an interested bystander... sort of.
Many years ago a previous (American) music director summoned the entire brass section to his room and told us that he didn't like our sound and would like to try to move toward something different... the more he talked about what he wanted, the less clear his wishes became... eventually one of the players asked him what orchestras produced the sort of sound he wanted... he answered 'the Chicago Symphony and the Berlin Philharmonic'.....
Two more different brass sounds are hard to imagine... so we never really understood what he wanted.... a shame really, we all wanted to make it work, but it is so hard to talk about sounds... we all hear things differently and are the product of the musical world we develop in... hence the eternal misunderstandings here.
Chris Stearn
To directly answer one question, our musical director is quite content to allow us to play within our U.K. style, just to do it musically
He was talking of the differences between our sound and the German sound... as an interested bystander... sort of.
Many years ago a previous (American) music director summoned the entire brass section to his room and told us that he didn't like our sound and would like to try to move toward something different... the more he talked about what he wanted, the less clear his wishes became... eventually one of the players asked him what orchestras produced the sort of sound he wanted... he answered 'the Chicago Symphony and the Berlin Philharmonic'.....
Two more different brass sounds are hard to imagine... so we never really understood what he wanted.... a shame really, we all wanted to make it work, but it is so hard to talk about sounds... we all hear things differently and are the product of the musical world we develop in... hence the eternal misunderstandings here.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
I feel this thread, at points, has made the very mistake that caused the thread to begin with; That we all should have the same sonic and equipment views and those who don't are somehow making a mistake or are lesser players. The plethora of 'I know a guy' stories in this thread is an example of what I am speaking about. As Svenlarsson states in his post (Another one of those whose posts bring clarity to a subject), equipment is an issue only if you sound bad.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
I'm STILL finding the whole argument quite valuable though. For example, I'm now looking for a " Frumpy Glotz" that BGuttman mentioned. He has posted almost 30,000 posts, so he MUST know something about the subject of Frumpy Glotzs.
The point about the Frumpy Glotz is quite clear, it must be the BEST mouthpiece in existance, because it is mentioned so rarely. The confusion in my mind exists about how to find the mid-point of the CSO and the Berlin Phil?
Is that a geographical mid-point to look for, or a musical mid-point?
I'm a patient man. Somewhere in the next 1,000 posts on this fascinating subject that mystery will be made clear.
Now, off to scrape up the $80-$100 I'll require to have all made translucent in my mind.....the threads also say that that is the worth of the free advice here. I'd feel much better if I paid someone for the advice, after all-- free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. It would be more valuable if I were to pay that money for it.
The point about the Frumpy Glotz is quite clear, it must be the BEST mouthpiece in existance, because it is mentioned so rarely. The confusion in my mind exists about how to find the mid-point of the CSO and the Berlin Phil?
Is that a geographical mid-point to look for, or a musical mid-point?
I'm a patient man. Somewhere in the next 1,000 posts on this fascinating subject that mystery will be made clear.
Now, off to scrape up the $80-$100 I'll require to have all made translucent in my mind.....the threads also say that that is the worth of the free advice here. I'd feel much better if I paid someone for the advice, after all-- free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. It would be more valuable if I were to pay that money for it.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Bonesmarsh, I like your posting style . You have a way of working in humor while making sense
. You have a way of working in humor while making sense -
ttf_bonesmarsh
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
My secret????
I'm a letter carrier by trade. A mailman. I have 6 hours of walking a day to 600 houses in the Canadian prairie sub-arctic climate. So, I get to think a lot. 12-15 miles a day of thinking. Charles Dickens used to walk compulsively to work out the plot details and then race home to dash out huge books-- in installments for serialization.
I dash home to write posts and practice. I was an english minor in school and I read a fascinating quote by Ernest Hemingway: " You have to read 10,000 words for every word you write."
This website would be in a lot better shape if that maxim were imposed by the moderators, except for one minor revision. Here are my new rules for the TTF:
1. You must practice the horn one minute for each word you write. One hour of practice = a 60 word post.
2.Every post that includes the words " My friend in Grade 9.." earns an automatic 30 day suspension from the boards.
3. Every 5,000 posts you have to follow stricter guidelines than imposed in article 1. For example-- after 5,000 posts you have to practice 90 seconds for each word written. One hour of practice= 45 word postings., because we all repeat ourselves, and we have so few really good stories to tell anyway. 10,000 posts and you have to practice TWO hours to post 60 words.
4.Every posting that includes any mention of a sports team, or their attached marching band gets a knitting needle driven through one eye. Mentioning the team/band colours gets TWO knitting needles through the eyes and ears.
Pretty simple, eh??? It only took me 3 hours in a blizzard this morning to work out the rules. The other 3 hours I spent laughing my *ss off. Don't worry...where I walk even dogs don't get let out --- because they'd freeze, so I can laugh all I want.
I'm a letter carrier by trade. A mailman. I have 6 hours of walking a day to 600 houses in the Canadian prairie sub-arctic climate. So, I get to think a lot. 12-15 miles a day of thinking. Charles Dickens used to walk compulsively to work out the plot details and then race home to dash out huge books-- in installments for serialization.
I dash home to write posts and practice. I was an english minor in school and I read a fascinating quote by Ernest Hemingway: " You have to read 10,000 words for every word you write."
This website would be in a lot better shape if that maxim were imposed by the moderators, except for one minor revision. Here are my new rules for the TTF:
1. You must practice the horn one minute for each word you write. One hour of practice = a 60 word post.
2.Every post that includes the words " My friend in Grade 9.." earns an automatic 30 day suspension from the boards.
3. Every 5,000 posts you have to follow stricter guidelines than imposed in article 1. For example-- after 5,000 posts you have to practice 90 seconds for each word written. One hour of practice= 45 word postings., because we all repeat ourselves, and we have so few really good stories to tell anyway. 10,000 posts and you have to practice TWO hours to post 60 words.
4.Every posting that includes any mention of a sports team, or their attached marching band gets a knitting needle driven through one eye. Mentioning the team/band colours gets TWO knitting needles through the eyes and ears.
Pretty simple, eh??? It only took me 3 hours in a blizzard this morning to work out the rules. The other 3 hours I spent laughing my *ss off. Don't worry...where I walk even dogs don't get let out --- because they'd freeze, so I can laugh all I want.
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ttf_Ellrod
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
There has to be a harsh and cruel penalty for use of the phrase:
"My parents are buying me a Shires..."
For example,
"My parents are buying me a Shires and I wonder which bell/valve combination is best. I'm in Grade 9 marching band and my band teacher says we have to play really, really loud!"
"My parents are buying me a Shires..."
For example,
"My parents are buying me a Shires and I wonder which bell/valve combination is best. I'm in Grade 9 marching band and my band teacher says we have to play really, really loud!"
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ttf_savio
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jan 24, 2011, 06:38PMHere are my new rules for the TTF:
1. You must practice the horn one minute for each word you write. One hour of practice = a 60 word post.
2.Every post that includes the words " My friend in Grade 9.." earns an automatic 30 day suspension from the boards.
3. Every 5,000 posts you have to follow stricter guidelines than imposed in article 1. For example-- after 5,000 posts you have to practice 90 seconds for each word written. One hour of practice= 45 word postings., because we all repeat ourselves, and we have so few really good stories to tell anyway. 10,000 posts and you have to practice TWO hours to post 60 words.
4.Every posting that includes any mention of a sports team, or their attached marching band gets a knitting needle driven through one eye. Mentioning the team/band colours gets TWO knitting needles through the eyes and ears.
Pretty simple, eh??? It only took me 3 hours in a blizzard this morning to work out the rules. The other 3 hours I spent laughing my *ss off. Don't worry...where I walk even dogs don't get let out --- because they'd freeze, so I can laugh all I want.
Poor Bruce, then he really have to get the horn up and start practice
Back to topic (since I always bring it out of topic) The 1 1/2g is just another choice. For some its the right choice, for another its a wrong choice. Chris told this many times here so I did a repeat of his words. But I don't think the 1 1/2g is on way out? Is it?
Getzen-player, I agree with you. Svenne often have an objective and clear way to look at things. Lets not get fanatic about this. Big or small.
I don't know the pro life around the world. I have one question.
Is the 1 1/2g to small to make a carrier in a modern pro orchestra? Can you win an audition in Chicago or Berlin with it or will the other sections player say "no 1 1/2g" it will not fit here. UK orchestra have many so there it is no problem. In Norway I think they even look at your equipment. Only your playing.
Leif
1. You must practice the horn one minute for each word you write. One hour of practice = a 60 word post.
2.Every post that includes the words " My friend in Grade 9.." earns an automatic 30 day suspension from the boards.
3. Every 5,000 posts you have to follow stricter guidelines than imposed in article 1. For example-- after 5,000 posts you have to practice 90 seconds for each word written. One hour of practice= 45 word postings., because we all repeat ourselves, and we have so few really good stories to tell anyway. 10,000 posts and you have to practice TWO hours to post 60 words.
4.Every posting that includes any mention of a sports team, or their attached marching band gets a knitting needle driven through one eye. Mentioning the team/band colours gets TWO knitting needles through the eyes and ears.
Pretty simple, eh??? It only took me 3 hours in a blizzard this morning to work out the rules. The other 3 hours I spent laughing my *ss off. Don't worry...where I walk even dogs don't get let out --- because they'd freeze, so I can laugh all I want.
Poor Bruce, then he really have to get the horn up and start practice
Back to topic (since I always bring it out of topic) The 1 1/2g is just another choice. For some its the right choice, for another its a wrong choice. Chris told this many times here so I did a repeat of his words. But I don't think the 1 1/2g is on way out? Is it?
Getzen-player, I agree with you. Svenne often have an objective and clear way to look at things. Lets not get fanatic about this. Big or small.
I don't know the pro life around the world. I have one question.
Is the 1 1/2g to small to make a carrier in a modern pro orchestra? Can you win an audition in Chicago or Berlin with it or will the other sections player say "no 1 1/2g" it will not fit here. UK orchestra have many so there it is no problem. In Norway I think they even look at your equipment. Only your playing.
Leif
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ttf_WaltTrombone
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Let's try to keep this topic closer to the 1.5G and related performance and tone concepts, and less about issues we may have with other people's posting styles. There are already topics about stuff you hate/like about the Forum elsewhere.
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ttf_Richard Tadaki
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Here's how I got to a Doug Elliott equivalent to a 1 1/2G. I'm primarily a tenor bone player. When I picked up a bass to fool around with, I started playing it with a Bach 2G but I hated the feel of the rim. I loved the feel of my Doug Elliott tenor bone setup so I figured that I would probably like a DE bass mpc. I picked up a DE SB106.I.8 setup which I guess is pretty close to a 2G equivalent. The rim felt very comfortable but the mpc didn't quite make it for me in the lowest register so I went to a setup that I guess is closer to a 1 1/2G, an SB108.J.8. Bingo. Moral of my story: if you like that way a 1 1/2G blows but don't like the feel of the rim, try a Doug Elliott equivalent. It does the job for me.
Okay, okay, there are probably other mpc makers who have a 1 1/2G equivalent with more comfortable rims than Bach. Check those out too.
Aloha,
Richard
Okay, okay, there are probably other mpc makers who have a 1 1/2G equivalent with more comfortable rims than Bach. Check those out too.
Aloha,
Richard
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Right Richard.
I have several Bach 1 ½ G:s.
Actually uncomfortable rims on all, except the Mount Vernon version.
Some students of mine liked the uncomfortable rims though.
I dont play Bach mouthpieces my self.
I dont like them much. Except the Mount Vernon, but I do like another brand better.
I have several Bach 1 ½ G:s.
Actually uncomfortable rims on all, except the Mount Vernon version.
Some students of mine liked the uncomfortable rims though.
I dont play Bach mouthpieces my self.
I dont like them much. Except the Mount Vernon, but I do like another brand better.
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ttf_Jeff Smith
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ttf_Birdy
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 23, 2011, 08:24AMThe non-orchestral world is a different story. I see hints that the British brass band players may be moving bigger, possibly after the model of Mark Frost.
It largely depends on what level of band the player is playing. Of the players I respect in the best bands, there are more playing 1.5 sized pieces than 60+ sized pieces. That's not to say that there aren't great players in the British Brass Band scene on large equipment, there are, just not as many as you'd think.
Those that have followed this thread over the last few years may remember a time when I posted about a phase I went through with my playing thinking that bigger is better. That ideal was bourne from listening to Frosty and trying to emulate his sound. I realised that was never going to happen, so I thought more about working towards a sound concept that I could use well. It was at that point that I made the decision to go smaller and work harder at making the piece work. I've been on 1.5 sized pieces for about 3.5 years now (the Rath 1.5W for the last 2). The mouthpiece search has ended for me now, as has the bone search (I'll stick with the Dou Gravis thanks). My point here is that if it wasn't for Chris's initial challenge, I may never have thought that there was another way.
Quite often the band I play for will play in concerts with other bands (usually ones that are of a lesser standard). I'm generalising slightly here, but the BT players of those bands nearly always play on gear that is too big for them. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 instances where players have asked me how I get a big sound out of a 1.5 sized piece. I talk through a couple of simple exercises they can use, and suggest to them that moving from a 1g to 1.5 size might make things more managable for them. Each time I've had the response 'Oh no, I could never play on a mouthpiece that small.' To which I'm eternally grateful, as that helps me keep on playing where I am, and them playing where they are.....
Another final anecdote, early in my Bass Bone playing (about 6 years ago), I was looking for a quick fix to a lack of low register. I went to Raths, as they are only a few miles from me. Whilst I was there trying a couple of the larger pieces, a bearded gent walked out of the workshop armed with what was then a prototype model of the Rath Contrabass. He put it down and asked me a couple of questions as to what I was looking for and what I felt my problems were. He listened to me on several pieces from the very big to the small, saying that in his opinion the 1.5 size produced the best results. He also let me have a 'blast' on the contra. At the time, I went for the 1.25W as I got what I thought was a better lower register. Sorry for not listening at the time Chris, I guess I had to work things out for myself, but I did get there eventually!
It largely depends on what level of band the player is playing. Of the players I respect in the best bands, there are more playing 1.5 sized pieces than 60+ sized pieces. That's not to say that there aren't great players in the British Brass Band scene on large equipment, there are, just not as many as you'd think.
Those that have followed this thread over the last few years may remember a time when I posted about a phase I went through with my playing thinking that bigger is better. That ideal was bourne from listening to Frosty and trying to emulate his sound. I realised that was never going to happen, so I thought more about working towards a sound concept that I could use well. It was at that point that I made the decision to go smaller and work harder at making the piece work. I've been on 1.5 sized pieces for about 3.5 years now (the Rath 1.5W for the last 2). The mouthpiece search has ended for me now, as has the bone search (I'll stick with the Dou Gravis thanks). My point here is that if it wasn't for Chris's initial challenge, I may never have thought that there was another way.
Quite often the band I play for will play in concerts with other bands (usually ones that are of a lesser standard). I'm generalising slightly here, but the BT players of those bands nearly always play on gear that is too big for them. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 instances where players have asked me how I get a big sound out of a 1.5 sized piece. I talk through a couple of simple exercises they can use, and suggest to them that moving from a 1g to 1.5 size might make things more managable for them. Each time I've had the response 'Oh no, I could never play on a mouthpiece that small.' To which I'm eternally grateful, as that helps me keep on playing where I am, and them playing where they are.....
Another final anecdote, early in my Bass Bone playing (about 6 years ago), I was looking for a quick fix to a lack of low register. I went to Raths, as they are only a few miles from me. Whilst I was there trying a couple of the larger pieces, a bearded gent walked out of the workshop armed with what was then a prototype model of the Rath Contrabass. He put it down and asked me a couple of questions as to what I was looking for and what I felt my problems were. He listened to me on several pieces from the very big to the small, saying that in his opinion the 1.5 size produced the best results. He also let me have a 'blast' on the contra. At the time, I went for the 1.25W as I got what I thought was a better lower register. Sorry for not listening at the time Chris, I guess I had to work things out for myself, but I did get there eventually!
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ttf_slidejj
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: tbonegeek07 on Jan 26, 2011, 01:44PMhttp://cgi.ebay.com/Bass-Trombone-Mouthpieces-Bach-Schilke-/190495214495?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item2c5a664b9f
Read the item description.
I did:
"The biggest and baddest bass trombone mouthpieces you can find on the shelf. A Bach 1G megatone and a Schilke 60 with an opened backbore. If you are not content sounding like George Roberts and want to sound more like Arnold Jacobs, these are what you need."
Affirms a lot of what's been said in 70 pages, in a way.
Read the item description.
I did:
"The biggest and baddest bass trombone mouthpieces you can find on the shelf. A Bach 1G megatone and a Schilke 60 with an opened backbore. If you are not content sounding like George Roberts and want to sound more like Arnold Jacobs, these are what you need."
Affirms a lot of what's been said in 70 pages, in a way.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: savio on Jan 25, 2011, 07:52AM But I don't think the 1 1/2g is on way out? Is it?
Leif
It sounds like, reading Gabe and Mr. Guilford's posts, that it is no longer used in the U.S. professional symphony scene; or at least used very little. Of course the U.S. scene is a very small slice of the musical pie and really, so what if they don't. If a mpce. works for you and your needs, play on it.
Leif
It sounds like, reading Gabe and Mr. Guilford's posts, that it is no longer used in the U.S. professional symphony scene; or at least used very little. Of course the U.S. scene is a very small slice of the musical pie and really, so what if they don't. If a mpce. works for you and your needs, play on it.
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ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Jan 28, 2011, 12:24PMIt sounds like, reading Gabe and Mr. Guilford's posts, that it is no longer used in the U.S. professional symphony scene; or at least used very little. Of course the U.S. scene is a very small slice of the musical pie and really, so what if they don't. If a mpce. works for you and your needs, play on it.
Yes, I agree. I'm little sorry if I sound like I think the more modern equipment is wrong. Its not of course. What you say is very true.
But I wish I could listen more of that 1 1/2g sound around. I admit that. But I understand it when people follow what most bass trombone players do around. I would probably do the same if I was in that world. Well, I should go and enjoy my trombone, and stop posting so much nonsens here.
Leif
Yes, I agree. I'm little sorry if I sound like I think the more modern equipment is wrong. Its not of course. What you say is very true.
But I wish I could listen more of that 1 1/2g sound around. I admit that. But I understand it when people follow what most bass trombone players do around. I would probably do the same if I was in that world. Well, I should go and enjoy my trombone, and stop posting so much nonsens here.
Leif
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ttf_John Beers Jr.
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: savio on Jan 28, 2011, 01:35PMYes, I agree. I'm little sorry if I sound like I think the more modern equipment is wrong. Its not of course. What you say is very true.
But I wish I could listen more of that 1 1/2g sound around. I admit that. But I understand it when people follow what most bass trombone players do around. I would probably do the same if I was in that world. Well, I should go and enjoy my trombone, and stop posting so much nonsens here.
Leif
Leif- the other question that bears bringing up is that the thread was initially about the Vincent Bach 1 1/2G.
It's since become about "Who plays a mouthpiece approximating 1.5G size", whether it be a Bach, a Minick, a Doug Elliott, whatever.
You don't even *currently* play a Bach 1&1/2G, nor does Chris.
Then there's the whole rimsize/cupdepth/throatsize debacle. Does a Bach 1.5GM fit into this thread better than does a slightly larger-rimmed, but also more efficiently throated mouthpiece like a Rath B1.25?
I'm coming to the conclusion that it all comes down to how you use your air, and how that air suits the horn in question. I've posted before, and I'm sure I'll post again, that I can approximate a bass trombone sound better on my .547s using an appropriate mouthpiece and slowing/broadening my airstream than I can plugging in the standard 'make a bass a tenor' 1.5G and not changing things up.
If you want a classic sound, if you have that classic sound in your soul eager to push out into the world, you'll manage to make it, no matter what mouthpiece you have.
But I wish I could listen more of that 1 1/2g sound around. I admit that. But I understand it when people follow what most bass trombone players do around. I would probably do the same if I was in that world. Well, I should go and enjoy my trombone, and stop posting so much nonsens here.
Leif
Leif- the other question that bears bringing up is that the thread was initially about the Vincent Bach 1 1/2G.
It's since become about "Who plays a mouthpiece approximating 1.5G size", whether it be a Bach, a Minick, a Doug Elliott, whatever.
You don't even *currently* play a Bach 1&1/2G, nor does Chris.
Then there's the whole rimsize/cupdepth/throatsize debacle. Does a Bach 1.5GM fit into this thread better than does a slightly larger-rimmed, but also more efficiently throated mouthpiece like a Rath B1.25?
I'm coming to the conclusion that it all comes down to how you use your air, and how that air suits the horn in question. I've posted before, and I'm sure I'll post again, that I can approximate a bass trombone sound better on my .547s using an appropriate mouthpiece and slowing/broadening my airstream than I can plugging in the standard 'make a bass a tenor' 1.5G and not changing things up.
If you want a classic sound, if you have that classic sound in your soul eager to push out into the world, you'll manage to make it, no matter what mouthpiece you have.
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ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 28, 2011, 02:13PMLeif- the other question that bears bringing up is that the thread was initially about the Vincent Bach 1 1/2G.
It's since become about "Who plays a mouthpiece approximating 1.5G size", whether it be a Bach, a Minick, a Doug Elliott, whatever.
You don't even *currently* play a Bach 1&1/2G, nor does Chris.
Then there's the whole rimsize/cupdepth/throatsize debacle. Does a Bach 1.5GM fit into this thread better than does a slightly larger-rimmed, but also more efficiently throated mouthpiece like a Rath B1.25?
I'm coming to the conclusion that it all comes down to how you use your air, and how that air suits the horn in question. I've posted before, and I'm sure I'll post again, that I can approximate a bass trombone sound better on my .547s using an appropriate mouthpiece and slowing/broadening my airstream than I can plugging in the standard 'make a bass a tenor' 1.5G and not changing things up.
If you want a classic sound, if you have that classic sound in your soul eager to push out into the world, you'll manage to make it, no matter what mouthpiece you have.
There I would have to disagree John. I have yet to hear that old classic sound coming from anyone playing the large size mouthpieces in common use today. When I say that, I mean up close and personal... the live situation. Over 28mm is pretty much a different sound. Some of those sounds are to be much admired, but they are different.
THAT is why Gabe says that nobody he knows on the orchestra scene plays a Bach 1 1/2G.
Remember, when I started this thread, I expected two or three replies and I was not setting up a position from which to embark on the ultimate mouthpiece discussion... I just wondered what the views were.
I am a bit of a dinosaur, not only playing a smaller type mouthpiece, but also probably the last person playing in an orchestra on a Holton much of the time... so what do I know ??
Funny, I started off as a kid wanting to be cutting edge on bass trombone and I end up being an old traditionalist.
Chris Stearn
It's since become about "Who plays a mouthpiece approximating 1.5G size", whether it be a Bach, a Minick, a Doug Elliott, whatever.
You don't even *currently* play a Bach 1&1/2G, nor does Chris.
Then there's the whole rimsize/cupdepth/throatsize debacle. Does a Bach 1.5GM fit into this thread better than does a slightly larger-rimmed, but also more efficiently throated mouthpiece like a Rath B1.25?
I'm coming to the conclusion that it all comes down to how you use your air, and how that air suits the horn in question. I've posted before, and I'm sure I'll post again, that I can approximate a bass trombone sound better on my .547s using an appropriate mouthpiece and slowing/broadening my airstream than I can plugging in the standard 'make a bass a tenor' 1.5G and not changing things up.
If you want a classic sound, if you have that classic sound in your soul eager to push out into the world, you'll manage to make it, no matter what mouthpiece you have.
There I would have to disagree John. I have yet to hear that old classic sound coming from anyone playing the large size mouthpieces in common use today. When I say that, I mean up close and personal... the live situation. Over 28mm is pretty much a different sound. Some of those sounds are to be much admired, but they are different.
THAT is why Gabe says that nobody he knows on the orchestra scene plays a Bach 1 1/2G.
Remember, when I started this thread, I expected two or three replies and I was not setting up a position from which to embark on the ultimate mouthpiece discussion... I just wondered what the views were.
I am a bit of a dinosaur, not only playing a smaller type mouthpiece, but also probably the last person playing in an orchestra on a Holton much of the time... so what do I know ??
Funny, I started off as a kid wanting to be cutting edge on bass trombone and I end up being an old traditionalist.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_savio
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
I think the only thing you can learn from me here is all my mistakes john. All my trying, all my swapping. Its no good. Chris told me he would get over here and bank me in my head with my mouthpieces if I don't learn to be stable. Its been good for my head and for my embouchure.
Leif
Leif
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: blast on Jan 28, 2011, 02:48PM---snip---
Funny, I started off as a kid wanting to be cutting edge on bass trombone and I end up being an old traditionalist.
Chris Stearn
Patience, Chris.
Hang in there long enough and they'll start to catch up to you.
Remember...these are the good old days.
I can hear it now...someday fairly soon, when the earth's atmosphere has substantially thinned out from the heat or we're living in plastic bubbles on one of Mars' moons, playing 2Gs because...because I mean, who'd go to hear live music by that time? Too hot out and besides, w/all'a the tech that will be available by that time, any sound will be able to be mixed in. All's you'll need is a frequency. Why work yer butt off?
Here's the debate:
Topic:
QuoteWho in their right mind plays anything bigger than Bach 2G ??
Posts:
QuoteWhy...in the old days men were REAL men!!! (Instead of partially robotic.) They played on big equipment because they were real men!!! Real men play on big equipment. How do I know? I'm a real man and I play on big equipment. That's how!!!
QuoteAhhh...whaddaya mean. In the good old good old days, why...people used 1 1/2Gs. To play Wagner!!! And when it snowed, they climbed hills, too!!!
QuoteWho's Wagner?
QuoteWhat's "snow"?
And so on and so forth...
Whadda buncha maroons!!! (With a few outstanding exceptions, of course. You know who you are. Mostly.) (
)
QuoteGnaaaahhhh...What's up, Doc?
QuoteNot as much as one might think from the evidence of 1395 posts and 97331 views over a period that is rapidly approaching 5 years.
Try everything, and use what works.
For you!!!
(Of course...if you don't know who you are...well then, there you jolly well aren't, ain'tcha.)
Later...
S.
Funny, I started off as a kid wanting to be cutting edge on bass trombone and I end up being an old traditionalist.
Chris Stearn
Patience, Chris.
Hang in there long enough and they'll start to catch up to you.
Remember...these are the good old days.
I can hear it now...someday fairly soon, when the earth's atmosphere has substantially thinned out from the heat or we're living in plastic bubbles on one of Mars' moons, playing 2Gs because...because I mean, who'd go to hear live music by that time? Too hot out and besides, w/all'a the tech that will be available by that time, any sound will be able to be mixed in. All's you'll need is a frequency. Why work yer butt off?
Here's the debate:
Topic:
QuoteWho in their right mind plays anything bigger than Bach 2G ??
Posts:
QuoteWhy...in the old days men were REAL men!!! (Instead of partially robotic.) They played on big equipment because they were real men!!! Real men play on big equipment. How do I know? I'm a real man and I play on big equipment. That's how!!!
QuoteAhhh...whaddaya mean. In the good old good old days, why...people used 1 1/2Gs. To play Wagner!!! And when it snowed, they climbed hills, too!!!
QuoteWho's Wagner?
QuoteWhat's "snow"?
And so on and so forth...
Whadda buncha maroons!!! (With a few outstanding exceptions, of course. You know who you are. Mostly.) (
) QuoteGnaaaahhhh...What's up, Doc?
QuoteNot as much as one might think from the evidence of 1395 posts and 97331 views over a period that is rapidly approaching 5 years.
Try everything, and use what works.
For you!!!
(Of course...if you don't know who you are...well then, there you jolly well aren't, ain'tcha.)
Later...
S.
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ttf_John Beers Jr.
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: savio on Jan 28, 2011, 03:18PMI think the only thing you can learn from me here is all my mistakes john. All my trying, all my swapping. Its no good. Chris told me he would get over here and bank me in my head with my mouthpieces if I don't learn to be stable. Its been good for my head and for my embouchure.
Leif
Well... to be fair... I want a *modern* orchestral bassbone sound, but I can't make due on a mouthpiece of 28.5mm inner rim or larger, and I think I can achieve that sound on my current bass setup (which is in the shop for a thorough cleaning for the next several days /cry).
Regarding the lack of Holtons, well, that's a crying shame. Every Holton I've tried has a sound that blends perfectly between tenors and tuba and really fills up the room in a way that, it strikes me, would work great for the vast, vast majority of orchestral works.
Leif
Well... to be fair... I want a *modern* orchestral bassbone sound, but I can't make due on a mouthpiece of 28.5mm inner rim or larger, and I think I can achieve that sound on my current bass setup (which is in the shop for a thorough cleaning for the next several days /cry).
Regarding the lack of Holtons, well, that's a crying shame. Every Holton I've tried has a sound that blends perfectly between tenors and tuba and really fills up the room in a way that, it strikes me, would work great for the vast, vast majority of orchestral works.
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ttf_Birdy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: blast on Jan 28, 2011, 02:48PM I just wondered what the views were.
I am a bit of a dinosaur, not only playing a smaller type mouthpiece, but also probably the last person playing in an orchestra on a Holton much of the time... so what do I know ??
Funny, I started off as a kid wanting to be cutting edge on bass trombone and I end up being an old traditionalist.Chris Stearn
That must be the passage of time catching up. I'm not there yet, but it's probably not that far away.....
I am a bit of a dinosaur, not only playing a smaller type mouthpiece, but also probably the last person playing in an orchestra on a Holton much of the time... so what do I know ??
Funny, I started off as a kid wanting to be cutting edge on bass trombone and I end up being an old traditionalist.Chris Stearn
That must be the passage of time catching up. I'm not there yet, but it's probably not that far away.....
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ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
70 pages 
...and I'm not even that bothered about what I play on... or what my students play on... ask them...
what I am bothered about is what music they play and how they play it...
... but I started this... so it's my fault
Sam reckons the end of the world is nigh... I think the end of the thread is nigh...
Perhaps there is one thing we might agree on...
Don't follow the crowd... work out what you want to do, and do it... mouthpiece, music...
the world is a poorer place if everyone tries to act like some kind of clone...
Find a voice and use it.
make the place better...
Chris Stearn
...and I'm not even that bothered about what I play on... or what my students play on... ask them...
what I am bothered about is what music they play and how they play it...
... but I started this... so it's my fault
Sam reckons the end of the world is nigh... I think the end of the thread is nigh...
Perhaps there is one thing we might agree on...
Don't follow the crowd... work out what you want to do, and do it... mouthpiece, music...
the world is a poorer place if everyone tries to act like some kind of clone...
Find a voice and use it.
make the place better...
Chris Stearn
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ttf_sabutin
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: blast on Jan 28, 2011, 03:55PM---snip---
Sam reckons the end of the world is nigh...
I don't actually...just making a point.
If I did...why bother?
Later...
S.
Sam reckons the end of the world is nigh...
I don't actually...just making a point.
If I did...why bother?
Later...
S.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??
Quote from: blast on Jan 28, 2011, 03:55PM
Don't follow the crowd... work out what you want to do, and do it... mouthpiece, music...
the world is a poorer place if everyone tries to act like some kind of clone...
Find a voice and use it.
make the place better...
Chris Stearn
Just before this thread gets locked up or dies out, I am going to post this quote. This really is the final word. Great job Blast.
Don't follow the crowd... work out what you want to do, and do it... mouthpiece, music...
the world is a poorer place if everyone tries to act like some kind of clone...
Find a voice and use it.
make the place better...
Chris Stearn
Just before this thread gets locked up or dies out, I am going to post this quote. This really is the final word. Great job Blast.