TromboneChat

What? Why?

Nothing here is really that contentious and so far is appropo to the subject at hand. Although some comments do seem… orthogonal.

The protections that are afforded to professors, union members, etc. are a double edge sword to some degree here. The issue is that they very much favor incumbents, and historically that has been not a particularly diverse pool of people, so it’s easy for sub-cultures to blossom in absence of tangible repercussions, or worse, for repercussions for outing reprehensible behavior (which seems to have been prevalent in the NYP for a long time).

With that said, it isn’t obvious to me that unions and tenure should be allowed to protect members accused of misconduct of this nature. It’ll hurt protections but it might be less bad than having lawsuits handle policy because that can be very unpredictable.

Also, sexual harassment training is an absolute joke everywhere I’ve worked and meant to tick compliance boxes. It is not evident to me that a 45 minute training video would have prevented this situation.

Matt’s comments are on target. I apologize if the reference to Phryne caused anyone to be unable to focus on the issue presented. Whether she did it or whether it is a fictitious legend, the story pointed to legacy problems in the court. Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now. By the way, the University of Tulsa had a professor that was rumored to have terminated his first marriage and actively working on termination of his second marriage by what would be characterized now as predatory behavior. When the building opened up one morning, around 1974, a pile of human feces was discovered right in front of the door to his studio.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 5:51 am
Also, sexual harassment training is an absolute joke everywhere I’ve worked and meant to tick compliance boxes. It is not evident to me that a 45 minute training video would have prevented this situation.

Absolutely. As a public school teacher, I have to watch a few dozen compliance videos every year on a wide variety of “ethics” topics—test security, sexual harassment, rules about restraining students…as well as what to do in a lockdown, and now they’ve added some on how not to fall for email phishing schemes as well. I’ve learned very little from them, aside from school-specific policies.

The majority of that content, indeed, is there to check a box and to ensure that there is no plausible deniability when someone breaks one of those rules. I understand the legal reason for them, but it’s much like “do not use in the bathtub” written on a hair dryer.

Additionally, the people who would break those rules will not be persuaded by a compliance video, nor will company policy be the first thing on their mind when they see their next mark. As another comment pointed out, they are very good at gradually moving the line of what is considered the “norm” or “acceptable” which will make others question whether the behavior they see is even worth reporting.

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 6:54 am Matt’s comments are on target. I apologize if the reference to Phryne caused anyone to be unable to focus on the issue presented. Whether she did it or whether it is a fictitious legend, the story pointed to legacy problems in the court. Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now.

Again, I have to ask (without malice- please understand) what your point is that you are trying to raise.

Also, no.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 9:30 am

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 6:54 am Matt’s comments are on target. I apologize if the reference to Phryne caused anyone to be unable to focus on the issue presented. Whether she did it or whether it is a fictitious legend, the story pointed to legacy problems in the court. Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now.

Again, I have to ask (without malice- please understand) what your point is that you are trying to raise.

Also, no.

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 10:07 am

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.

This part:

"Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now."

Again, things only appear worse because those that didn't know (more likely, didn't want to know) are now forced to see what has been happening for... ever.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 10:11 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 10:07 am

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.

This part:

"Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now."

Again, things only appear worse because those that didn't know (more likely, didn't want to know) are now forced to see what has been happening for... ever.

Ahh yes. Agreed. Thx.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 10:11 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 10:07 am

What does your "also no" refer to? Just curious.

This part:

"Officer Mayo could be right as well: Things may be worse for women now."

Again, things only appear worse because those that didn't know (more likely, didn't want to know) are now forced to see what has been happening for... ever.

Your statement regarding awareness could be true. Officer Mayo’s statement could also be true. The statements may not be mutually exclusive. Factors such as greater access to drugs by predators could make things worse for women. Behavior scientists study this stuff and even they may argue among themselves. The fact that you have asked the question, “What’s your point?” multiple times may be an indication that this forum isn’t a robust process for discussing this topic, at least for me, with my limited education and vocabulary skills. So I am choosing to decline your invitation, without malice. Cheers.

Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.

sungfw wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2024 5:57 pm
If you can't see the relevance of the analogy, I'm not going to waste time and energy spelling it out for you.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and it annoys the pig." – Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

I don't know if it was intended, but that comes off as pretty insulting. This is a wonderful thread. I do NOT want to see it closed because of you. Please be kinder.

It isn't a matter of coulds and what-ifs. It's been historically difficult for us as women to be able to speak out or even be taken seriously and treating the issue with this semi-cavalier attitude of "Oh maybe X is true, or Y is true," is honestly a little insulting. I feel as though it feeds back into those pervading attitudes that got us into the current situation with the NYP. This IS happening and HAS been happening for years... at least now there's some little attempts at accountability.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 11:22 am Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.

It’s little disappointing that this isn’t the dominant sentiment in this thread.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 1:08 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 11:22 am Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.

It’s little disappointing that this isn’t the dominant sentiment in this thread.

Agreed!!!!

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 1:08 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 11:22 am Just talk to women and you'll find it's pretty obvious.

It’s little disappointing that this isn’t the dominant sentiment in this thread.

“As a father/husband of daughters/wives” is the “thoughts and prayers” of sexual assault...

It is astonishing - but sadly not surprising- how many men delude themselves about this topic.

Just checked the stats. Pretty sure 2023 stats would be even higher. But of course I must be wrong (again) and it's not getting worse.

officermayo wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 3:54 pm Just checked the stats. Pretty sure 2023 stats would be even higher. But of course I must be wrong (again) and it's not getting worse.

Yes, that's reported assaults, something that will go up when women feel safer reporting (which has been the case, ever so slowly).

officermayo wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 3:54 pm Just checked the stats. Pretty sure 2023 stats would be even higher. But of course I must be wrong (again) and it's not getting worse.

I mean this with no malice, but I think you’re missing the point. The source you’ve shared is based on the reported cases (which is the currently the only way to quantify it I know of). But this is only discussing *reported* cases. It does not speak to the actual number of instances of sexual assault. The reason the reported cases increased is because in recent years women feel they are able to share safely. Sexual assault of women has been going on for a very long time and is now is just more visible and discussed. The growth in reported cases shows us that more people are able to talk about it, not that it is getting worse.

Even if the truth may be that it’s getting worse (which I don’t believe and is functionally irrelevant), we need to support women however they need it. That doesn’t mean referring to them as a statistical problem (which I am not suggesting is happening here). It means talking to women, listening to them, believing them, and being someone on their team when it matters. This discussion of the NY Phil and Demandre Thurman has not put enough emphasis on the immense harm caused by bystanders. People knew what was going on and chose to say nothing because it was easier than saying something. Men need to stop protecting other men and hold each other accountable. I hope going forward more men are able to put women’s safety and basic rights as a human above their potential discomfort in holding accountable the awful men who continue to sexually assault women or harm them in any other context. Women deserve better.

I give up.

I very clearly stated that it appears these cases are on the rise. I was told I was wrong (twice).

I was told they've been going on forever. I already knew that and didn't refute that fact.

I being told my statement is irrelevant because:
I'm not a woman
The increase in reported cases (which is most likely miniscule compared to assaults that happen and go unreported) is a figment of my imagination.
It just SEEMS like it's on the rise because of social media.

I'll bow out of this discussion since what I say (based on 12 years working in law enforcement) appears to fall on deaf ears.

Enjoy the echo chamber, y'all.

officermayo wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 4:43 pm I give up.

I very clearly stated that it appears these cases are on the rise. I was told I was wrong (twice).

I was told they've been going on forever. I already knew that and didn't refute that fact.

I being told my statement is irrelevant because:
I'm not a woman
The increase in reported cases (which is most likely miniscule compared to assaults that happen and go unreported) is a figment of my imagination.
It just SEEMS like it's on the rise because of social media.

I'll bow out of this discussion since what I say (based on 12 years working in law enforcement) appears to fall on deaf ears.

Enjoy the echo chamber, y'all.

Again... the point is moot. It doesn't matter.

We need to be better allies to women, not state statistics- again, why even bring them up?

News from DCI: https://cadets.org/cadets-arts-entertai ... bankruptcy

bitbckt wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 9:21 am News from DCI: https://cadets.org/cadets-arts-entertai ... bankruptcy

DCI in the early 1980's. I marched in '79 and part of the 1980 season in a small corps on the west coast. Heard lots of rumors about what went on in other groups; back then (I was 15-16 at the time) I figured that some of it was just people smearing their competition. In our own group, we had an instructor openly dating a member (not sure if she was a minor at the point; she was a senior in high school and her parents had full knowledge of the situation) and a middle-aged executive/instructor living with a 20-something guard instructor; she had formerly been a member of another corps at the same time he was on the staff.

Such things aren't isolated to DCI. The sad truth is that youth organizations, as with schools and churches, have always been fertile hunting grounds for predators. Not only are there plenty of potential victims, but the leaders of those organizations frequently take steps to "protect the organization" - which means protecting the predator as well.

I'm going to make a prediction. A group of alumni and parents (possibly joined by some current and/or former staff) will be formed and will attempt to revive the organization. If they can get their act together quickly enough, they'll try to purchase the Cadets' assets as part of the bankruptcy process.

Sexual harassment has been happening for as long as there have been people. Images such as the caveman dragging his female "conquest" by the hair were perfectly acceptable in generations past. (Infact, Such images were not uncommon in the weekend cartoons in the newspapers in Australia, when I was growing up, and I am only 55.) The TV series Mad Men describes a society where women were routinely objectified. It was not acceptable for women to protest at that time, for fear of losing their jobs. They had to "grin and bear it". I would like to think that today's society is more enlightened, but there are still many men who want to objectify women, and maintain the archaic patriarchy of yesteryear. Men need to do better.

Karma caught up with these guys:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts ... Position=1

Ridiculous it took this long. Harassment of this nature should be firable the same day as its reported, as it would be in my non-union workplace.

And they still get paid through the end of this year.

The story isn't over yet. There's the possibility of all kinds of civil lawsuits. Wang and/or Muckey might sue the orchestra for wrongful termination. They might also sue the union because it removed it's support. Depending on the timeline, there could be lawsuits against Wang and/or Muckey for harassment or against the Phil for a hostile work environment

Is there something that the people here could do to effectuate change? I'm not in the union since I'm in a different profession, so I have little insight into the inner workings. Seems like this should be a no brainer to strip these forms of protections with the aim of preventing this type of thing in the future, or perhaps even going more aggressive and actively putting roadblocks in the way of people being able to sue for these types of things.

Cmillar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:37 pm Karma caught up with these guys:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts ... Position=1

"Karma"?

What about justice?

boneberg wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 4:27 am

Cmillar wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:37 pm Karma caught up with these guys:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/04/arts ... Position=1

"Karma"?

What about justice?

For sure....I hope these guys end up having to sell their instruments.