Spot the Embouchure Issues and Guess the Crazy Fix

[PaulTdot]

Bob Havens is quite interesting to watch. Hard for me to tell what's happening there (at least in this video). I almost wonder if he could be playing upstream inside that mouthpiece... but it's pretty high up for that.

[ArbanRubank]

Bob Havens is quite interesting to watch. Hard for me to tell what's happening there (at least in this video). I almost wonder if he could be playing upstream inside that mouthpiece... but it's pretty high up for that.

That's why I posted this classic vid of him. Beautiful sound, versatility and musicality and with what I consider to be a somewhat quirky embouchure.

I know of another player who played with what looked like an upstream embouchure at times and yet I had it verified with someone he played with that he blew down into the cup. But with his horn sometimes held straight out, his head angled down, a jaw-forward playing technique and a low-placement on the mouthpiece - he sure gave an impression sometimes of playing up-stream. It's possible he only played like that when he was playing a sustained low passage, which he was remarkably good at.

And so I'm wondering if anyone actually ever switches between down-stream for middle to upper register and up-stream for lower register playing. Probably not advisable and yet I can also imagine some players becoming outstanding even by playing "wrong".

[Wilktone]

And so I'm wondering if anyone actually ever switches between down-stream for middle to upper register and up-stream for lower register playing. Probably not advisable and yet I can also imagine some players becoming outstanding even by playing "wrong".

Some players can get quite good at covering this up, but it's still noticeable.

[ArbanRubank]

Some players can get quite good at covering this up, but it's still noticeable.

Sure - to someone like you! Lol. Others of us? Maybe not so much. Some players have become masters of playing to their strengths and otherwise covering for themselves.

[PaulTdot]

It's true: there are some great players who manage to cover up such switches remarkably well. Doug Elliott made a movie a long time ago (not publicly available) which has a really great tubist who also switches airstream direction in various ranges.

However, the distinction will become audible or visible when the player has to fight with that "switch", either in their sound quality, in their inability to perform lines crossing certain registers, a visual detail (e.g. mouthpiece moving to a different spot on their face), or all of the above. So it's definitely "detectable", but it's also possible to play with someone like that and never notice it (especially if they stay out of the problem range or never have to transition in and out of it).

[harrisonreed]

Here is my most unpopular video. It probably contains my least musical playing, as I am switching mouthpieces and talking a lot. The only playing I do is to demonstrate what I'm talking about, including how tongue placement and jaw placement can have a negative effect on the sound. I intentionally do a split tone.

I was trying to put together a fun and interesting series and be myself during the worst of the pandemic, but after work picked up again and the very negative response I got to this video, I gave it up.

This video seems like it might add to the conversation. Maybe you can spot my embouchure fix. Ironically, I sound the best in the upper register on the largest mouthpiece I demonstrate, but I know all too well that using it for a recital would be suicide.

[Wilktone]

Nice! You're not really playing anything musical, but overall it sounds good.

For the record, I only scanned it once and didn't pay attention to what you were saying, just jumped forward to the playing.

Ironically, I sound the best in the upper register on the largest mouthpiece I demonstrate, but I know all too well that using it for a recital would be suicide.

A agree (with the first part), I thought you sounded best on that larger mouthpiece. Is it endurance that would be a factor for you?

Maybe you can spot my embouchure fix.

I didn't notice any specific issues requiring a "fix," so these are just some general observations. Again, I only scanned through your video once. Also, Paul T(dot), Doug, and I have been emailing a bit lately to discuss the downstream types and some characteristics of what can cause problems with those types, so I may be primed now to see things that aren't really a problem for you. Take this with a grain of salt.

I'm pretty confident that you have a downstream embouchure with the embouchure motion of up to ascend (Elliott type Very High Placement/Reinhardt type IIIA).

I think I see a larger amount of embouchure motion to descend into your lowest range compared to how you ascend into your highest range. In general, I feel it's a good starting point to make the amount of motion to ascend, for example, from middle Bb to high Bb the same amount as it would be to descend from middle Bb to low Bb. That's one of the issues you can see in my first video in this thread and for me the problem was being too far in my ascending direction by the middle Bb. For you, I would try to experiment a bit and see if you could either minimize the descending motion or do a little more in the upper register. Maybe both.

Most players have some side to side deviation in the embouchure motion direction, which also translates into some side to side horn angle changes. I am also curious to see what would happen if you experimented a little with pushing up and to one side to ascend, bringing the horn angle over to one side, etc. If you go back and look at what I was doing with my horn angles from Feb. 28th post above, sort of like that, but also including more side to side.

I don't automatically assume that a player's mouthpiece placement is ideal for their face. Often a placement a little (or even a lot) higher/lower/to one side can make for a noticeable improvement. Since you seem to fit a VHP type, if experimenting with a student I might see about a higher placement, just to see what happens, as well as off to one side or another. When I'm working with a student for the first time I will often have them try to play as one of the other embouchure types, just to see what happens. Sometimes a player will inadvertently be playing with the wrong type (I was when I took my first lesson with Doug in 1997).

My two cents. As I said, take it with a grain of salt.

Dave

[timothy42b]

I kept looking for the insulation layer six inches above your head, or the cat to wander in.

[baileyman]

I keep thinking of Bill Watrous in this context. I've heard separately from two pros, NY and LA, that he could freebuzz anything he could play. Which of course is astounding. So at some time it would be interesting to hear the principals in this thread address how that skill relates to this embouchure categorization routine. Since on the one hand there is neither horn nor mouthpiece involved, and on the other there is. Prolly needs a separate thread.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, Dave it's an endurance thing. I wouldn't be able to play a lineup of demanding recital pieces on that mouthpiece. I appreciate your catch on my motion in the lower register. I've been working on getting more accurate and efficient with those motions, and l have a lip slur exercise that is helping me do that -- basically start on pedal Bb and do an octave slur up, then go to trigger F and continue with an octave slur, then low Bb -- continue this pattern, BbBb, F F, until you hit up to F5, then reverse the pattern back down to the pedal Bb. I try to do it in one breath. Then repeat in 2nd position.

Part of my frustration with that video is that it has to be done in a tiny practice room. There is a whole other discussion to be had for the effect of the room on your perceived horn resistance and feedback.

"Why is the upper register so difficult only in this stupid room?" There is a real reason for that. I think part of the reason the bigger mouthpiece sounds better in that video is that you get better feedback from it in the tiny room. It plays "bigger" and the room sounds tiny. It might have been a more even playing field between the different mouthpieces in a larger hall.

[PaulTdot]

baileyman,

There are definitely some trends when it comes to embouchure types and free buzzing, which is worth addressing (probably in a separate thread, in case someone else wants to read about it!). You'll note that the "fix" Dave went through here had him switch to downstream playing in part so he could work on some buzzing drills - that's an important element related to that discussion. (Upstream players generally cannot buzz the same way that they play at all, whereas very high placement types like Watrous sometimes get really good at it.)

Harrison,

This is a nice video. I really enjoyed the attention to detail, and the breakdown of brass playing physics is quite accurate. (I'm not sure how useful it is to beginners, but you handle the topic pretty well. It's nice to see someone aware of airstream direction and how it relates to mouthpiece shape, for instance.) I've never heard this explanation for a "split tone" before, but it makes sense! I'll have to go try this in the practice room.

You sound great, too (and I can relate to your comments on mouthpieces and room size here, as well). Nice playing.

One thing I disagree with, though, is your description of airstream direction: it is not based (or not solely based) on the position of the jaw, as you describe it here. It is entirely possible for a downstream player to play with a "steeper" airstream (hitting closer to the rim) while protruding the jaw, as well as vice-versa. (I know, in part, because I experimented with this a fair bit in the past, and I see lots of great players doing it, as well. The clip of Watrous posted earlier is another good example.)

Similarly, it's possible to switch from upstream to downstream without moving the jaw at all (as some of Dave's videos show; Doug's film has an interesting example of a trumpet player doing so, as well).

While the position of the jaw can play some role in controlling the direction of the airstream, I feel your video misrepresents it pretty significantly.

Thanks for sharing this; I am bound to love anyone who opens with "this is my least popular video!" (I'm actually very curious to hear what kind of negative feedback you received on this - at least, I don't see any in the comments.)

After watching this video, I also checked out your videos on instrument maintenance. The rotor maintenance video is particularly well done, and I got some good tips out of it! Thanks for sharing these. Wonderful stuff!

[harrisonreed]

Thank you Paul! My "least popular video" received a bunch of thumbs down within an hour of me posting it. The only way that could have happened is for there to have been people subscribed to me, watching what I post and they gave me an immediate thumbs down. I'm not delusional -- really no one is watching my content so I figured it must be my friends here at TC. Also, since my other videos didn't receive a negative response like that, I took it seriously. Maybe I can find the confidence to keep on with my series!

I don't want to hijack this thread any further. Hopefully we can see some other videos or takes on this fascinating subject.

[Wilktone]

I don't want to hijack this thread any further.

Yes, enough about me. Let's talk about me.

But seriously, I'm personally cool with this thread going off into other players. If the moderators feel otherwise we can start new topics.

My "least popular video" received a bunch of thumbs down within an hour of me posting it

Four thumbs down is "a bunch?" You've got twice as many thumbs up on that video. Besides, haters gonna hate.

One thing I disagree with, though, is your description of airstream direction: it is not based (or not solely based) on the position of the jaw, as you describe it here.

I have to agree with Paul here, Harrison. I didn't watch all your comments yet on your video, but I still think you're overplaying the role that jaw plays in directing the air stream. It does have an influence on overall embouchure form, but I think if you watch the Leno film carefully enough you will see the air stream gets directed at its angle into the mouthpiece more or less independent of what the jaw is doing.

I've been working on getting more accurate and efficient with those motions, and l have a lip slur exercise that is helping me do that -- basically start on pedal Bb and do an octave slur up, then go to trigger F and continue with an octave slur, then low Bb -- continue this pattern, BbBb, F F, until you hit up to F5, then reverse the pattern back down to the pedal Bb. I try to do it in one breath.

Again, my two cents.

If the low register is too far in your descending direction (which I suspect it is, this is very common), then I don't think starting there is the best way to go about minimizing it. Instead, start on high Bb and slur by octaves down to pedal Bb. Strive to make the the motion the same between all octaves and find where each note is most focused and in tune. I'd also see about minimizing jaw motion as much as possible, just to see how it affects things (particularly dropping the jaw to descend, the main risk for your embouchure type being that it can pull the mouthpiece off the top lip's position).

But I could be wrong. Catch a video lesson with Doug sometime, I can highly recommend them.

Hopefully we can see some other videos or takes on this fascinating subject.

Yeah, someone else's turn next.

[Trombo]

Spot the Embouchure Issues:
Type IVA do not suit you (IMHO). You have overbite and IIIB or IIIA will suit you better.

Guess the Crazy Fix:
1. Read about embouchure in the book "Trombone Technique" by Denis Vick.
2. Buy Faxx 6 1 / 2AL and practice 5 hours a day.

[Wilktone]

Thanks for your thoughts, Trombo.

Type IVA do not suit you (IMHO). You have overbite and IIIB or IIIA will suit you better.

An overbite won't dictate the embouchure type in this way. Many upstream players have an overbite.

I'm not sure if you've read all the way through this thread, but it's pretty obvious that I'm not suited to play as a IIIB and IIIA. I've been down the IIIB route for years prior to switching to my current embouchure type. 10 days as a IIIA has been pretty convincing that that type is wrong too.

2. Buy Faxx 6 1 / 2AL and practice 5 hours a day.

I used to play on a 6 1/2 AL. Back in grad school I did get 3+ hours a day of practice, plus rehearsing and teaching lessons. These days I'm getting around 2 hours a day. I've found that by focusing my practice in very specific ways I can often get more accomplished in a shorter amount of time, which is good since I don't normally get 5 hours a day just for practice.

Thanks again, Trombo.

[ArbanRubank]

...An overbite won't dictate the embouchure type in this way. Many upstream players have an overbite...

We all tend to use the word overbite when what we really mean is overjet. Two different things. One can have an overjet and not have an overbite. But one can not have an overbite without having an overjet.

[Doug Elliott]

I had to look it up:

What’s the difference between an overjet and an overbite?
Some people use the terms overjet and overbite interchangeably. But while both conditions are similar, they’re not the same.

In both cases, your upper teeth will protrude over or in front of your bottom teeth. But with an overjet, the upper teeth protrude past the bottom teeth at an angle.

With an overbite, there isn’t an angle. Although the upper teeth protrude past the bottom teeth, the teeth remain straight or downward.

I don't think the term "overbite" is being misused here.

[ArbanRubank]

It's a confusing set of terms! I think Wikipedia does about as good as any source I can find. The pic makes the concept clearer, I believe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overbite

This may also help:

https://diamondbraces.com/conditions/excessive-overjet/

Look at the two pics about halfway down, just over the caption "What Are the Causes Of Overjets". I think those two pics are revealing.

"Overbite" is more of a layman's term, I believe. An orthodontist might take the more clinical approach to define precisely what he is referring to.

Anyway, that's my "contribution" to this thread, such as it is. Hah!

[Trombo]

Are you suggesting that David turn to the ordodontist to solve his problems? This is not a crazy idea, as it might seem. The great Russian trombonist Anatoly Skobelev (1945-2011) experienced great problems in his youth due to protruding front teeth.
The orthodontist replaced his front teeth. After that, all problems disappeared. He became the winner of the trombonists competition in Geneva (Switzerland) in 1973. He then became principal at the Bolshoi Theater and professor at the Moscow Conservatory.

Teeth play a huge role in our profession.

[Doug Elliott]

It's not only confusing but somewhat contradictory as I see it. There's a "normal overjet" (what 99% of people would call "overbite") and "excessive overjet" in which every example shown in a picture has the top two front teeth angled outward... as the description I posted says "with an overjet, the upper teeth protrude past the bottom teeth at an angle.". It's really all about the angle.

I'm OK with using the term "overbite." It still correctly means top teeth in front of bottom teeth.

[ArbanRubank]

FWIW, I agree. I believe that for everyday discussions, "overbite" is the term that we all know and since when one has an overbite, the top teeth do stick out over the bottom teeth, it can't be wrong. I just wanted to add a little academician information purely for the sake of it.

Edit: I almost forgot (actually I DID forget, but I remembered that I had forgotten). The reason I know about these two types of malocclusions is that my orthodontist edumacated me when I had to have a front tooth capped. He was able to straighten it - for what he described as more stable & unified embouchure support. I think he must have had a friend who played trumpet. Turns out I think it did help my playing a bit. At least it didn't hurt it any worse than it ever was!

[Wilktone]

I have a pretty typical "overbite" in that my lower teeth are naturally behind my upper teeth when I close my jaw completely. My upper teeth are pretty straight, while my lower teeth are a bit crooked, in spite of the braces I had when I was younger.

All that said, there seems to be no correlation between having an overbite and having a downstream embouchure type. I can say this with a certain degree of confidence since this was one of the research questions for my dissertation.

Are you suggesting that David turn to the ordodontist to solve his problems? This is not a crazy idea, as it might seem.

A decision to have dental work done is probably best decided for dental health reasons. Another thing I can state with some certainty is that no one really knows exactly how all the anatomical features interact with each other to influence embouchure technique and anyone who states that they do know are fooling themselves. The approach that Doug teaches is working with your anatomy, rather than changing your anatomy to fit something that may or may not be helpful.

Trombo, I'm not sure that you've read through this entire thread. Please understand that when I first posted this topic my "crazy fix" had already been over. I started this thread because I was interested in sharing my experiences with other folks and while I'm happy to hear your thoughts on this topic, you might have to trust me when I say that the solution was not dental work or permanently changing my embouchure type.

Dave