TromboneChat

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:37 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:30 pm I guess it depends on how much you think your professional/study life and personal life should be intertwined. Personally I like to keep my study life and personal life as far apart as possible And in tge end of the day a professional comes into work to do the the job that need to be done. Whats happens putside of the workplace, in my opinion, should stay outside and the music industry is no exception. People like to say it's special and different but it really isn't.

You are 14. I doubt you know much about playing in an orchestra, or working for that matter.

A little hypocritical for me to be saying that but still needed to make that point

Don't worry, Elow. It doesn't take advanced age to recognize another person's naiveté. Good work!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:47 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:43 pm
I understand and I never said she was in the right. I just think that the response was overkill. Of course though that also reflects our current time and events.

Putting aside right and wrong, for a minute, if the contract said "you will not express racist or extremist views contrary to the ideals of the orchestra publicly", then what would you think?

If that is what the contract says then yes.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:46 pm US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that Freedom of Speech does not permit you to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

Steve Martin (ca. mid-70s) had a bit where he asked if it was o.k. to yell 'movie' in a crowded firehouse. That always made me laugh.

I see this argument is moving nowhere so lets agree to disagree

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:51 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:46 pm US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that Freedom of Speech does not permit you to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

Steve Martin (ca. mid-70s) had a bit where he asked if it was o.k. to yell 'movie' in a crowded firehouse. That always made me laugh.

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:48 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:37 pm

You are 14. I doubt you know much about playing in an orchestra, or working for that matter.

A little hypocritical for me to be saying that but still needed to make that point

Don't worry, Elow. It doesn't take advanced age to recognize another person's naiveté. Good work!

Just because he does not agree with your intolerance does not make him naive. Sometimes we can learn a lot if we just put our egos aside.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:20 pm

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:11 pm ... nobody should expect their employer to tolerate hate speech, on or off the clock. ...

I still don't understand how expressing your opinions in a private forum should cause you to get fired and internationally humiliated?

"Private" how? "Private" like hanging out in your basement and talking with a few buddies? Or "private" like nobody is going to find out, so it should be OK? Facebook is not private.

How about the woman who called the police on a birdwatcher in central park? She was fired and internationally humiliated, and she didn't post anything on social media. It was her hateful actions that destroyed her career and life. Don't conflate the relative anonymity and remote nature of online interactions with any sort of abstraction- hate is hate, whether it's expressed in private or in public, in person or from a distance, and it's the hate that's the issue here, not how it was expressed.

BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:34 pm I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.

I meant private as in private life that isn't related to the professional life.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:03 pm

BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:34 pm I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.

EXACTLY. She is not the victim

[/quote]
Because freedom of speech is a thing.
It would be different if she was going around her place of work and makind rude comments but no, she posted them on her private facebook account which has no affiliation to her employer.
[/quote]

She does have the freedom to say those things. That freedom protects you from facing legal trouble (and not in every case). The amendments do not ensure that you stay employed. If I was a teacher and brought a weapon to my classroom the second amendment wouldn't save me from being fired (nor would it save you from being arrested in this case).

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:03 pm I meant private as in private life that isn't related to the professional life.

I feel that I've pretty clearly outlined how this person's actions bleed over from "private" into "public/professional" life. People don't usually lead multiple lives, there's just the one- with private and professional facets. The level of compartmentalization you are implying is a complete fabrication.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:03 pm

BurckhardtS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:34 pm I'd like to remind everyone, because it seems we are horrifically not even to this point yet: blatant racism is in 99% of contracts a reason for a no-questions-asked termination. It's up there with sexual harassment and pedophilia. I'm surprised there are people who don't see it this way.

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.

This is exactly my point.
Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:30 pm

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:03 pm

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.

This is exactly my point.
Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

Wait. That was exactly the opposite of your point, in opposition to your point....

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:39 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:30 pm
This is exactly my point.
Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

Wait. That was exactly the opposite of your point, in opposition to your point....

Maybe I didn't say it the best way but I meant that it's overkill to be making a big fuss about this when POCs are being killed.

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting (sic) of people with racist views. and wducate (sic) them."

Seriously?

I feel like you need a serious reality check. These people don't want hugs.

"it's overkill to be making a big fuss about this when POCs are being killed."

How about MAKING THOSE RACIST COMMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? WAS THAT "OVERKILL?"

Are you a troll, or do you actually have your head that far up your own ass?

The point is that people are doing all the wrong things to fight racism and I know that as an orchestra manager you gotta do what you gotta do but I don't think doing what were doing now where when someone makes a racist comment we fire them and shun them from our community is really very effective.
Anyway, I see this very unpoular so let's agree to disagree.

paulyg wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:48 pm "The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting (sic) of people with racist views. and wducate (sic) them."

Seriously?

I feel like you need a serious reality check. These people don't want hugs.

"it's overkill to be making a big fuss about this when POCs are being killed."

How about MAKING THOSE RACIST COMMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? WAS THAT "OVERKILL?"

Are you a troll, or do you actually have your head that far up your own ass?

That's really uncalled for. People are trying to have a civil discussion about a very emotional issue and have been doing quite well until this moment. There's always room to disagree but not to be disrespectful.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:30 pm

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:03 pm

I really don't understand how some people in this threat are implying that a racist woman losing a job is overkill while POC are actually being killed.

This is exactly my point.
Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

To your point https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:01 pm That's really uncalled for. People are trying to have a civil discussion about a very emotional issue and have been doing quite well until this moment. There's always room to disagree but not to be disrespectful.

Respect is earned.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:59 pm The point is that people are doing all the wrong things to fight racism and I know that as an orchestra manager you gotta do what you gotta do but I don't think doing what were doing now where when someone makes a racist comment we fire them and shun them from our community is really very effective.
Anyway, I see this very unpoular so let's agree to disagree.

Nothing is going to change until it is made clear that the behavior is unacceptable.
If they are NOT fired and shunned, it shows we are accepting that as normal and acceptable behavior.
Unless you think it IS completely acceptable. And it's not.

Edit added:

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again."

Actually I do hear you on that, and on the 14 year old level, I agree with you. That is the time (or maybe well past the time) to educate - that it's wrong and NOT acceptable.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:05 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:30 pm
This is exactly my point.
Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

To your point https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

Yes, that is an amazing story and that man is exceptionally brave and charismatic. I saw his story on "the story of us" I believe, on Netflix. We need more people like him, and each demographic and culture needs more people like him coming from their own group. What a great world we could have.

Putting that onus on a group like an orchestra might be wishful thinking.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:05 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:30 pm
This is exactly my point.
Do you think that this is the proper way to deal with racism? Do you think that going around and looting stores, destroying the country, and attacking cops is going to solve racism? No. There is a reason why were in the 21 century and racism is still a thing. It's because nobody is actually putting and effort into making a sustainable solution. Everybody only thinks short term. Pusing the racist down. Then they come back up and we push tgem down again. The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again.

To your point https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

I think that story highlights how racism stems from ignorance. People have views from what the media and culture around them tell them; perhaps they hate the idea of X fed from those sources without actually hating X itself. When they get to meet and know X, they realize that their preconceived notions may not be based on truth.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:13 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:59 pm The point is that people are doing all the wrong things to fight racism and I know that as an orchestra manager you gotta do what you gotta do but I don't think doing what were doing now where when someone makes a racist comment we fire them and shun them from our community is really very effective.
Anyway, I see this very unpoular so let's agree to disagree.

Nothing is going to change until it is made clear that the behavior is unacceptable.
If they are NOT fired and shunned, it shows we are accepting that as normal and acceptable behavior.
Unless you think it IS completely acceptable. And it's not.

Edit added:

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again."

Actually I do hear you on that, and on the 14 year old level, I agree with you. That is the time (or maybe well past the time) to educate - that it's wrong and NOT acceptable.

That's a good point.
The thing about racism though is it's a natural human instinct which probably explains why it's so hard to cure and it's also clear that it's very hard to educate adults to think differently. Maybe a good way to deal with it to first understand where the racism stems from since of course it doesn't come out of nowhere and then maybe use more gradual punishmemts like a temporary suspension or something.
But I think a big part of this is teaching people if we want to cure racism we will have to be a bit more patient towards racist individuals.

What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:24 pm What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?

Yes
I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:38 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:13 pm

Nothing is going to change until it is made clear that the behavior is unacceptable.
If they are NOT fired and shunned, it shows we are accepting that as normal and acceptable behavior.
Unless you think it IS completely acceptable. And it's not.

Edit added:

"The only way to fix racism is to be more acccepting of people with racist views. and wducate them. Not push then down again."

Actually I do hear you on that, and on the 14 year old level, I agree with you. That is the time (or maybe well past the time) to educate - that it's wrong and NOT acceptable.

That's a good point.
The thing about racism though is it's a natural human instinct which probably explains why it's so hard to cure and it's also clear that it's very hard to educate adults to think differently. Maybe a good way to deal with it to first understand where the racism stems from since of course it doesn't come out of nowhere and then maybe use more gradual punishmemts like a temporary suspension or something.
But I think a big part of this is teaching people if we want to cure racism we will have to be a bit more patient towards racist individuals.

Since when is racism human instinct. I grew up in the middle of georgia with not a person of color in sight and yet me nor my friends are disrespectful or hateful. I don’t know what happens overseas to make you think everyone is born racist. Do you think a husky is going to treat a german shepherd any different than another dog? I hope not

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:39 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:24 pm What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?

Yes
I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough

I feel as though you're not putting yourself in the shoes (empathizing) with the players in her former orchestra that she was referring to.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:39 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:24 pm What do you say to the people in her orchestra made uncomfortable or unsafe by her comments? To be more patient?

Yes
I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough

That is why racism has been an issue for literal centuries. It’s just accepted as the norm. That’s why these situation arise, we all know it’s bad but we’ve been doing it for so long it’s just being accepted. Nothing changes if we don’t, and i think it’s about damn time to change.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:56 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:39 pm
Yes
I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough

I feel as though you're not putting yourself in the shoes (empathizing) with the players in her former orchestra that she was referring to.

I just said that I think she should be condemned and put on temporary leave or is that not good enough.

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:56 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:39 pm
Yes
I never said that what she did was ok and she should be condemned but I think if we were more accepting of racists then it will help solve the problem. You can disagree if you want. But for sure what were doing now is not good enough

That is why racism has been an issue for literal centuries. It’s just accepted as the norm. That’s why these situation arise, we all know it’s bad but we’ve been doing it for so long it’s just being accepted. Nothing changes if we don’t, and i think it’s about damn time to change.

I agree but we have to be very wise on how we deal with it.

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:52 pm

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:38 pm

That's a good point.
The thing about racism though is it's a natural human instinct which probably explains why it's so hard to cure and it's also clear that it's very hard to educate adults to think differently. Maybe a good way to deal with it to first understand where the racism stems from since of course it doesn't come out of nowhere and then maybe use more gradual punishmemts like a temporary suspension or something.
But I think a big part of this is teaching people if we want to cure racism we will have to be a bit more patient towards racist individuals.

Since when is racism human instinct. I grew up in the middle of georgia with not a person of color in sight and yet me nor my friends are disrespectful or hateful. I don’t know what happens overseas to make you think everyone is born racist. Do you think a husky is going to treat a german shepherd any different than another dog? I hope not

It's called Implicit bias.

I don't know if you're a dog owner but my dog is often hostile towards other breeds and often isn't to his own.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:18 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:56 pm

I feel as though you're not putting yourself in the shoes (empathizing) with the players in her former orchestra that she was referring to.

I just said that I think she should be condemned and put on temporary leave or is that not good enough.

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:41 am

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:18 am
I just said that I think she should be condemned and put on temporary leave or is that not good enough.

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:44 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:41 am

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.

In an ideal world, someone wouldn't have those views, much less express them in a public place.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:44 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:41 am

In the current climate? No. The orchestra is a highly visible, public facing organization.

In normal times? I think it's warranted as well, especially as this wasn't a new phenomenon from this person.

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:57 am

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:44 am

I already said that I understand the orchestra's management's decisions and I think that what they did was valid. But in an ideal world, I don't think it would be right to do such a thing.

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.

You're acting like I don't support fighting racism.
Just because I have a different perspective than most people doesn't mean I'm racist or don't support the fight for it.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:03 am

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:57 am

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.

You're acting like I don't support fighting racism.
Just because I have a different perspective than most people doesn't mean I'm racist or don't support the fight for it.

Then this is an odd hill to die on.

With regards to that trombonist's situation. There is no private life on Facebook, particularly when you are a public figure. When you have people sponsoring your employment, even less so (you can bet the sponsors of the principal trombone chair whose names were listed right next to hers on concert programmes and on the website are among the "other key members" referred to in the ASO statement). When you are the public face of an organisation, which orchestra members very much are, you don't get to decide when you speak in your own name or what part of what you say can reflect on your organisation.

People need to stop it with the free speech and "mob tribunal"/accused, tried and sentenced hypocrisy. There is no 100% free speech anywhere in the world, not even in the US. (And by the way there are many countries that have more restrictions on free speech than the US and are still better functioning democracies where people are effectively more free. Americans don't have a monopoly on defining what freedom means.) In any case, free speech protects you from prosecution and punishment by the state, not from being fired or humiliated or shunned by your peers or losing a platform you are not inherently entitled to. Was she arrested? No? Executed or put in jail? No? Then there is no breach of her free speech rights. This isn't a mob tribunal, people who find her statements disgusting are also exercising their free speech rights when they denounce her.



With regards to police reaction to the current protests: yes of course there are countless law enforcement officers who do their job out of a sense of duty and a need to selflessly serve their community, and nobody is disputing that. But it is incredibly naive to not acknowledge that, given the nature of the job, many, many are attracted to it at least in part because of the power it can give them over other people. It's also very naive not to realise that it is much to the advantage of police forces to employ such people, even if it's highly problematic in some regards.

Permanent anti-riot squads in particular are notorious, at least where I'm from, for prizing such qualities as agressivity, lack of discernment and empathy, and not so covert intolerance towards otherness (POC, LGBTQ, students, intellectuals, etc.) in their members. Ad hoc anti-riot forces (usually street cops pitching in overtime) are usually not as bad, but what kind of cops you think are more likely to sign up for that overtime, nice cops who just want to serve their community (and are maybe sympathetic, or enclined to be, to the protester's cause) or cops who enjoy the opportunity to blow off some steam and play GI Joe? Again not saying that's all of them, but it's either really naive or disingenuous to refuse to see that there is a huge problem there, especially in the current, very explosive situation.

Last thing I want to say. After centuries of domination, of racism, appropriation, after slavery and countless crimes against humanity perpetrated all in the interest of white people (it doesn't matter that some of these are over and we didn't ourselves take part in, we still benefit from them as a group), it really isn't our place as whites to decide the terms of how racism should be dealt with and what the appropriate response from POC to their people being lynched should be.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:43 am With regards to that trombonist's situation. There is no private life on Facebook, particularly when you are a public figure.

Rabbit hole, totally (or at least mostly) off topic and irrelevant,

but, seriously? An orchestra player is a public figure? Maybe in our own minds - but the importance of classical music to the rest of the population is perhaps not as large as we think.

Ask the average American, who can probably name every player on the Washington Redskins squad, to come up with a single classical player on any instrument, and you can safely bet they won't know any.

Anyway, that idea caught my attention, now you can all return to the argument/discussion.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:59 am

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:43 am With regards to that trombonist's situation. There is no private life on Facebook, particularly when you are a public figure.

Rabbit hole, totally (or at least mostly) off topic and irrelevant,

but, seriously? An orchestra player is a public figure? Maybe in our own minds - but the importance of classical music to the rest of the population is perhaps not as large as we think.

Ask the average American, who can probably name every player on the Washington Redskins squad, to come up with a single classical player on any instrument, and you can safely bet they won't know any.

Anyway, that idea caught my attention, now you can all return to the argument/discussion.

Fame is not necessary for a figure to be public. No matter how small its audience is, the musicians are public faces of an orchestra. It doesn't matter that the average American doesn't know them. The patrons of the organisation do, so do the donors and the local music community. Local aspiring musicians know them and look up to them. And they are known by these people *because* of the position they hold. So yes, holding that job makes you a public figure, however big or small or whether local or state-wide or national or international.

The trombonist in question was listed (online) by school systems as a private lesson instructor. That makes them a public figure within their community.

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:14 am The trombonist in question was listed (online) by school systems as a private lesson instructor. That makes them a public figure within their community.

That's a stretch, to put it mildly. Nobody cares what a trombone player thinks.

The lesson here especially for the younger viewers is that social media WILL get you in trouble. You may or may not disagree with the consequences that ensue, but careless use of social media IS likely to result in consequences.

You don't need to be a public figure for that to be true. I know a Walmart employee who was fired for a Facebook comment about management. What you type is there, somewhere, forever.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:55 am

slipperyjoe wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:14 am The trombonist in question was listed (online) by school systems as a private lesson instructor. That makes them a public figure within their community.

That's a stretch, to put it mildly. Nobody cares what a trombone player thinks.

The lesson here especially for the younger viewers is that social media WILL get you in trouble. You may or may not disagree with the consequences that ensue, but careless use of social media IS likely to result in consequences.

You don't need to be a public figure for that to be true. I know a Walmart employee who was fired for a Facebook comment about management. What you type is there, somewhere, forever.

Sigh.

The trombonist in question works (or worked) directly with children via school system referrals. That makes them a public figure within their community. Any teacher, myself included, will attest to this.

Orchestras in GB usually have clauses about not discussing the orchestra on public forums. Also clauses about bringing the orchestra into disrepute by posts on public forums.
That makes it breach of contract to do what she did. She probably had that kind of contract.

Chris

The First Amendment was intended to permit individuals to disagree with Government policy and express that disagreement.

It does not shield from slander, lies, hate speech, or incitement to riot.

It does not shield you from civil consequences of your actions. For example if you were to post a comment that your boss is an idiot, you can be fired for that.

There is another special carveout for whistleblowers (people who expose illegal or unethical activities in Government or Private Industry). In fact, Trump's firing of all the Inspectors General because he disagrees with their investigations should be considered abuse of power.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:03 am

Mv2541 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:57 am

Ideal world? You mean... one without racism in the first place?

That world does not exist, but I'll be damned if we don't fight every single day for progress inch by inch. Plenty of people more important than you and I have laid down their lives just to move the line another inch, and most of us are just not willing to disrespect their sacrifice toward equality by letting the line move even a single hair backwards. By the time you and me are gone this system won't be fixed, but I'd rather die knowing I helped it move it in the right direction even the slightest bit.

You're acting like I don't support fighting racism.
Just because I have a different perspective than most people doesn't mean I'm racist or don't support the fight for it.

But you are saying that we need to accept more racists and that the all ending cure for racism it to just wait until people want to change their mind. I don’t know, but to me, sounds a little suspicious

I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.
Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:55 am The lesson here especially for the younger viewers is that social media WILL get you in trouble. You may or may not disagree with the consequences that ensue, but careless use of social media IS likely to result in consequences.

You don't need to be a public figure for that to be true. I know a Walmart employee who was fired for a Facebook comment about management. What you type is there, somewhere, forever.

Yes. I cannot think of any job I've had where someone making similar remarks on FB or any like platform would not be instantly dismissed for gross misconduct on the grounds of bringing the organisation into disrepute.

8parktoollover wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:31 am I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.
Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.

When you try to advocate for someone who espouses racism, you can't convince anybody you don't agree with them.

If you want to be an apologist for racists you become like the 3 cops who stood by while one of their comrades choked a person to death.