Double trigger C and b natural

[Bassbonechandler]

Hello all,

I have a getzen 1052fd with a 93d. I'm having issues getting my low c and b natural to speak. I feel like I'm pretty relaxed when playing them but I can't get them to sound and speak very well.

[Burgerbob]

Can you play a D in first at a good volume and gliss down to those notes? Can you play a good pedal Bb and slur out to C or B?

[Bassbonechandler]

Yes I can slur from d down to those notes. Sometimes the ending of the c's and b's are bad. I wouldn't call my pedal b flat good. It's kind of spotty. Whenever I try doing low arpeggios starting on b flat and going down to the pedal it's smooth up until I hit the pedal b flat.

[hyperbolica]

Maybe you should step back. The 93D is a pretty big mouthpiece to not be able to play pedals. Do you have access to smaller mouthpieces? It seems like you need to get the mechanics of how the pedals work, which even tenor players can play on small bore horns with small mouthpieces. Something you should be working on with your teacher, really.

[Bassbonechandler]

I can play pretty much every other pedal note than b flat. I'm not kidding. For some reason my b flat is my worst pedal note.

[Bassbonechandler]

I just mean that I have to almost articulate the pedal everytime I go down to it when doing arpeggios. If that makes sense. It's not very smooth.

[hyperbolica]

leak in the horn? Loose connection somewhere? Fill it up with water and see if you spring a leak somewhere.

[Bassbonechandler]

What about valves that could be old? I'm not sure. I bought my horn from an music store second hand. I don't know how old the horn is.

[Burgerbob]

The thing about the big mouthpieces is that it's up to you to provide the resistance in the instrument. If you don't, and the aperture is too large, the whole setup will actually feel stuffy, and notes like the ones you mention are difficult to play.

There's no easy fix to this (that I know) other than spending a whole lot of time in all ranges.

[Bassbonechandler]

Thanks for the input. A bit of a dumb question but why is that?

[BGuttman]

One possibility is that you aren't going to the right position to start the note. If the horn isn't set to resonate at the pitch it doesn't speak. If you can't play pedal Bb in tune, you may be "lipping" it down . Do your other pedals seem to need sharper positions?

There is a Remington exercise where you play (for example) Bb, A, Bb; Bb Ab Bb, Bb, G Bb, Bb, Gb, Bb, etc. Articulate each note. Start your series on double trigger D. Work your way down to double trigger Bb (that's the same note as pedal Bb but on the two triggers).

Also try the Remington exercise on pedal notes. Pedal single triggers, and then Pedal double triggers.

[lowcatjb]

One possibility is that you aren't going to the right position to start the note. If the horn isn't set to resonate at the pitch it doesn't speak. If you can't play pedal Bb in tune, you may be "lipping" it down . Do your other pedals seem to need sharper positions?

This made me think...I play an Edwards (related to Getzen) and my fourth and fifth positions are lower than you'd assume on other horns. It's really flummoxed people who've tried to play my horn (even some "big names!")

Those would be the positions you'd be dealing with. Maybe check with a tuner? Like Bruce said if they're off one way or the other they won't resonate.

[ghmerrill]

leak in the horn? Loose connection somewhere? Fill it up with water and see if you spring a leak somewhere.

Have you checked the valve alignment? I continue to be shocked at the number of trombone players who NEVER check their alignment until something falls off the horn (like a bumper). If each valve is slightly out of alignment (just from bumper wear) on a double valve horn, then the result can be significant in getting notes to speak.

Also do the leak test -- in the process of which, check to see if your water key is really sealing well. But slightly misaligned valves could be a real problem for double valve notes.

[Burgerbob]

Thanks for the input. A bit of a dumb question but why is that?

This is probably an oversimplification, but every instrument needs a resistant point somewhere, whether it's the person, mouthpiece, leadpipe, crook, valve, gooseneck, etc. The 1052 isn't especially open or stuffy, so it's up to the mouthpiece (they ship with a 1.5G) or the player.

[Matt K]

What leadpipe are you using? Try the one with only two rings if you aren't already and see if that makes a difference.

[GabrielRice]

How old are you? Do you have a teacher? Is the teacher a bass trombone player? Where do you live?

If you're anywhere near Boston, I can help you. If not, I can probably recommend somebody who can.

[Bassbonechandler]

I realized after practicing this morning I'm simply not going out far enough.

[BGuttman]

Remember that single trigger positions are farther apaprt than Bb positoins, and double trigger positions are farther still.

On a Bb/F/Gb horn, low C in double trigger 3 is actually close to Bb 4 and double trigger B is around Bb 5 1/2

Doug Yeo's Web Site has a position chart for different configuration bass tromones.

[Bassbonechandler]

See the thing is I understand the positions and my single trigger positions are fine and double up until the c and b. Now just to fix my bad habits..

[Savio]

What helps me is to play f in the staff, then c , a, down to f. Then same from e and chromatic down as fare I get. Legato and I think it as a pyramid. Not crescendo but just broader sound towards the bottom. To make this I try to make no change in embouchure. It's easy to try force the low notes happen, but it doesn't help. Also play some melodies down there can help. Then you think more on the melody than just focus on the trouble. This might not help you, but Gabe told to get help from a teacher. That's probably the best thing to do. A little patience is also needed. Don't give up.

Leif

[Backbone]

Alan Ralph's exercise works:

https://m.youtube.com/user/alanraph/videos

Great for working on the single and double trigger range. Look for the trigger notes video.

[Backbone]

Also this.

https://trombonetools.com/low-range/

I especially like the part about not blowing past the note.

[BrassedOn]

Also this.

https://trombonetools.com/low-range/

I especially like the part about not blowing past the note.

Good list of method books on this suggest link. I would add the Walter Sear v1 book for Tuba. It is much in the bass tuba range, rather than contra, so for a bass trombone, in many of the etudes, the tessitura bridges the tenor and trigger range nicely. Do play with a tuner to check, and with octave above, and you may find you want to adjust your valve tuning once you get stronger. Oft mentioned Doug Yeo shared others' slide charts, the first of which might help you envision the location of those notes.
http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... chart.html

When just starting on bass bone, I liked short slow digital exercises mezzo volume, like 5 notes of a descending scale G F E D C or some movement in 3rds E C E C E. Starting in a comfortable range and moving the same figure down chromatically. Then into more arpeggiated figures G E C D G. And eventually moving in 5ths and octave jumps because so common. And practice pp soft. If you can get a note to speak clearly pp, then you're really getting that range down. Part of the challenge for me was getting the air volume and speed matched to the low range on bbone. So the short passages helped me not to try to play on an empty tank. As you work the C and B, do try to get the double trigger 7th position BBb, and alternate with the 1st position BBb. I might rarely use in performance, but good to have depending on the figure, and the C and B will feel easy in comparison. When mf is feeling good, then try putting on some gas for forte.

[Backbone]

leak in the horn? Loose connection somewhere? Fill it up with water and see if you spring a leak somewhere.

Have you checked the valve alignment? I continue to be shocked at the number of trombone players who NEVER check their alignment until something falls off the horn (like a bumper). If each valve is slightly out of alignment (just from bumper wear) on a double valve horn, then the result can be significant in getting notes to speak.

Also do the leak test -- in the process of which, check to see if your water key is really sealing well. But slightly misaligned valves could be a real problem for double valve notes.

Thiiiiiissss!!!!

I had the same issue. Pedal Bb was so hard and could not belt it out. Low C and B were squirrelly and difficult. Checked valve alignment and it is mucho better!

Everything about my horn is much more solid now. Even the open and single trigger notes.

[Jimprindle]

Going with what Bruce said about having the slide in exactly the right position to get the overtone in tune. If you are using a tuner, do not find the position for those low notes (the 2nd partial) by tuning in that register, instead tune the note 1 octave higher (4th partial, and even the 8th partial) with same valve and position. IOW, to tune the low B with a tuner, put both valves and go to your approximate slide position (somewhere around 6th position) and (keeping the valves down) tune the octave higher and maybe even the next octave higher. That low octave should be almost exactly in the same place. As Bruce said and I have seen with my students, when they try to just tune the lower octave they sometimes change the embouchure to get the needle of the tuner to go where they want it to go.

[Basbasun]

Bruce and jimprindle are right. Actually a very common problem for students. Actually for many pros too.
Leif is there too.

[tbonesullivan]

Maybe there is too little back pressure? I actually have a lot of trouble hitting the lower pedal notes on a large bore or bass trombone. With my King 3B and a 6 1/2 AL size mouthpiece I can hit all the way down to pedal E without any reset, and possibly further.

With a Large Bore tenor, I'm lucky if I get Pedal G

With my Bass and a 1 1/2G mouthpiece, Pedal F is it without one lipping it. If I switch to a Laskey 85MD, then I can easily get down to F and bit below.