Something smaller than the schilke 52

[casindog]

I have been playing with the schilke 51 and 52 small shank. I enjoy the 52 because I suppose the rim fits better on my face better. I don't tire easily. I don't feel pressure on my lips. My lips and embouchure respond well to playing a lot.

However, I am looking for a mouthpiece with a rim like the 52, but smaller in diameter. Because, I notice there is just a little more mouth wetness than I prefer (a sign of a mouthpiece being too big).

According to the hickey's comparison charts:
https://www.hickeys.com/assets/pdf/mpcecharttn327.pdf

Schilke 51: 25.63 mm. I feel it has slightly flatter rims
Schilke 52: 25.78 mm. I feel it has slightly curved rims

From this chart, the Laskey 57 and Wick 5 would be mouthpieces to try. However, I can't find anywhere on the internet with a Laskey 57. Secondly, I have played on a Wick for many years, and I recall that I grew to dislike the flat rims. The rim flatness would cut my lips after long sessions of playing.

So, I ask the trombone forum for any wisdom on finding the mouthpiece with rims like the Schilke 52 but smaller in diameter. I'd be willing to make a purchase too.

[Rusty]

It’s hard to make definitive decisions based on numbers and specs, as there’s a lot more that goes into how a mouthpieces feels and responds.

I’ve found Doug Elliot rims to be very very comfortable and you can easily experiment with different rim sizes of the same contour, he even offers half sizes in between too! So my suggestion would be to perhaps order or see if you can try a 52, 51.5 and 51 equivalent and go from there. The added benefit is you can also make sight adjustments to the cup once you find a rim you like.

[Doug Elliott]

And I have narrow (thin) rims available in every size. Sort of similar to the 52 rim.

[Trav1s]

FWIW - I played a Schilke 51B for 30 years after trying many different options. I tried out one of Doug's setups at ITF 2018 and have not looked back. I use a LT102 for most things (feels a bit more spacious than the 51B I was playing) but the contour is very comfortable to me. I'd also recommend giving one of Doug's setups a try and maybe even a Skype with him.

[Matt K]

Yeah, Doug's rims are where it's at. I liked the Schilke rims a long, long time ago but I could never find one that had an underpart that I like very much. So I moved on to other pieces... lots of pieces similar to a 52 actually until I finally went to a convention. Finally! Something with that narrow rim profile that I like with an underpart that worked well for me. I ultimately switched the rim out (from XT102N to XT104N) a few months later at a lesson and I still play that size to date, although I've picked up a few more copies along the way.

[WGWTR180]

Doug Elliott. Nowhere else.

[Vegasbound]

For me it has to be Doug Elliott

[casindog]

Thanks for the responses. I am looking at the Doug Elliot website, and there's a lot of information for me to go over. I will be buying/trying something there. Do the mm measurements include the rims on the Doug Elliot site?

Meanwhile the last couple of days of independent research lead me to try the Bach 4C mouthpiece. I'll be testing it this week.

Clarification: I like the schilke 52 rim width, contour (shape), and bite. I was looking for a mouthpiece with an inner width less than 25.78.

[casindog]

http://www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com/tenortrb.html

I think I want to try the following combinations:

For Rims:
LT Remington the size and shape of a Remington, for those who prefer that rim shape (25.65mm)
LT 102 similar to Bach 4G (old), Benge-Marcellus, Wick 4?AL (25.9 mm)
LT 103 similar to Bach 3G (old), Bach 4G (new), Schilke 52, Wick 4AL (26.16mm)

I don't know what the Remington rims feel like. Any description?

For Cups:
LT C+ an interesting and versatile cup halfway between C and D
LT D medium, for all-around small to medium bore trombones, or alto

For Shanks:
I never analyzed shanks, so I really don't know.
For reference, I played on the following: Bach 5g, 4g, Schilke 51, Schilke 52. Also, played on a Wick, Yamaha for a long time, but I don't remember the exact type and I misplaced them around the house. I do not understand how those shanks differ.

Any guidance would be appreciated on the following:

Small shanks: (for small tenors, altos, and small shank euphoniums)
alto S - backbore for most Eb alto trombones, slightly smaller taper than tenor to go in farther
alto - backbore for Eb alto trombones with normal tenor taper
2 - backbore for .485 to .500 bore trombones
3 - backbore for .508 to .510 bore trombones
4 - backbore for .525 bore small shank trombones, and euphonium
5 - very large small shank backbore, especially for .525/.547 dual bore trombones, and small shank euphoniums

---

Are the Doug Elliot rims and cups interchangeable? I've seen cups and rims able to be twisted on/off for mix and match.

[BGuttman]

Doug's rim sizes are in hundredths of an inch. A 101 is 1.01 inches. Multiply by 25.4 to get mm (25.65 mm). This is the inner rim diameter.

I have a Remington, but don't know how to describe it. Not as round as a Schilke. I found it to be a "tight" Bach 5G. Works well on the Conn 88H for which it was the standard mouthpiece. My small shank Remington works great on my Conn 40H.

On my small bores I use an E cup. I use the E2 shank on my Holton 67 or King 606. I use E4 shank on my Bach 36. I came from a Bach 4C, so I use 102 rims.

Elliott cups and rims are interchangeable within a series: all LT rims fit all LT cups. Shanks are designed for a particular cup depth regardless of series. You can actually use a shank one size off without much trouble, though. Incidentally, my MT 102 rim screws onto my LT cups, but there is a "jog" since the rim diameter and cup diameter don't match where they mate.

[hyperbolica]

My memory of the Remington rim is that it was very round, and it cut into my lip a lot. My endurance increased when I moved off of it, but that was 30+ years ago. I play Doug Elliot now, like a lot of others.

[Trav1s]

Don't overthink this. The info on Doug's site is a baseline to compare and help you understand. With your input he will assemble the right collection of parts for you. Tell him what you currently play and he will know where to begin and go from there.

When he fit me at ITF 2018, there were a total of 4 combos suggested but I found the magic in one of the first two combos he assembled.

I play the LT series on small, medium, and large tenors. With his help, I settled on the following combinations for my current horns.

.485" - LT101/C+/D2
.522" - LT102/D/D4

I picked up the C+ cup at the same time I purchased the D2 shank for additional flexibility as Doug suggested but it was not necessary as the LT101/D/D2 combo would work on the .485" just fine.

[Schlitz]

.

[Trav1s]

I spent some time with the D and C+ cup on the .485" Conn 24H. I am very happy with the C+ for the smaller horns. From my side of the horn, the C+ brings more focus and fullness to the sound. This combo allows the horn to sing sweetly or bark with authority in an almost paradoxical way. I enjoyed the horn using a Faxx 12C but the DE combo really made me love it.

Also, I did not try the C+ on the 79H as the combo that Doug dialed in for it is spot on. I don't recall if we tried the C+ at that time but was likely in the mix.

[casindog]

Update:

i was playing with the bach 4c. there were some things that i really liked about it. but the biggest realization i found was that the most important aspects to me are the rim contour and bite, and not so much rim diameter.

i never had any work done on mouthpieces before, so I didn't know what to expect. i had the local music shop to round the contour and smooth the bite of my schilke 51, and i'm really happy with the outcome. the previously unplayable 51 is now my favorite mouthpiece.

One interesting aspect I've noticed is that my 51 cup is deeper than my 52 cup. In the future, I may want to experiment with a smaller cup. now i'm curious about the 51B and 51c4.